Hi,

I am wondering if any one has tried Classic-Pan 400, its is available from http://www.classicfilm.de/HomeUSA/body_homeusa.html.

If any one has tried it, what are your thoughts? i am currently shooting Tri-X.

Thanks, Paul Jones

-- Paul Jones (mr_nrg@hotmail.com), February 06, 2002

Answers

Classic Pan is rebadged Fortepan 400.

-- Volker Schier (Volker.Schier@fen-net.de), February 07, 2002.

Forte products, among them Forte films, are sold under nearly a dozen different brandnames. In some cases the this is openly admitted by the companies selling these products, in other cases -- as we have seen in the case of a French based firme -- it is perceived as a threat for the sales of the rebadged products. Forte films have a very nice tonality, but have a grain characteristics which most people would relate to TRIX. It is good material beyond doubt for fine arts photography. Fine grain fetishists though will not be happy with it.

-- Volker Schier (Volker.Schier@fen-net.de), February 07, 2002.

Is it true that Forte 200 Asa sheet film actually is the Efke PL 100 ? Isn't that silly, if it's the case? Forte makes their own films, and as the swedish saying, Why walk over the bridge to get water?

-- Patric (jenspatricdahlen@hotmail.com), February 07, 2002.

I have just read an article in "shutterbug" where the author says that Paterson Acupan 200 is actually Foma's T200.

-- George Papantoniou (papanton@hol.gr), February 08, 2002.

In 35 mm Classic-Pan worked best for me in Calbe A49 diluted 1:1 or 1:2, the later was used for one-shot convinience. That combination gave acceptable grain and resolution. To answer your question, I'm still shooting TX in 35 mm.

Wolfram

-- Wolfram Kollig (WJFKollig@web.de), February 08, 2002.

Paul:

Aside from everything else, teh film curled too much when dry,making it a hassle to handle, so why use it when Tri X and the others don't. If my main objective were saving a few pennies, I would use it, but why cross the bridge to get to the water.

Subtle differences in toanlity and grain structure seem to be in the realm of " The narcissism of minor differences".

Cheers Cheers

-- RICHRRD ILOMAKI (richard.ilomaki@fmglobal.com), February 08, 2002.

On this newsgroup I had already posted the information that Paterson Acupan 200 film is Fomapan T200 some time ago. It is very interesting though that when Forte material is rebadged as a Bergger product, it seems to get "better", and that the characterstics that some that characteristics described above are seen more as an asset than a problem: in this case the obtrusive grain structure is seen as less important than the improved tonality! My conclusion: When the rebadged product is sold for less, everyone is talking about the fact that saving money cannot be an issue, when the rebadged product is sold for more, then it mysteriously has to improve.

-- Volker Schier (Volker.Schier@fen-net.de), February 08, 2002.

I can only suggest that the readers of this listserv check the archive for the past postings on the Bergger/Forte film topic. In the light of this discussion it is very interesting to reread the very cryptic response by Bergger, that obviously was intended to "mystify" the apparent connection. Some companies seem to believe that consumers are stupid. It also shows that information by the industry should be approached with scepticism.

-- Volker Schier (Volker.Schier@fen-net.de), February 09, 2002.

This information on Bergger film is very interesting. I suspect the same is true for Bergger paper. I would like to know if Bergger products are sold in countries other than the USA. I suspect their sales efforts are mostly directed to the USA. We are more gullible and have more money to waste on "better" products. No question that Forte makes excellant products but changing the name to Bergger adds nothing but price.

-- Don Spangler (dspang@siscom.net), February 09, 2002.

I also wanted to find out about these two films: The curves of both films show beyond any reasonable doubt that Bergger film and Fortepan are identical. As a consequence I buy the cheaper Forte variety.

-- Agnes Frey (Agnes.Frey@gmx.net), February 10, 2002.

I cannot verify the information about Bergger paper. For example Bergger Prestige is obviously also sold als Moersch Select, Forte Polywarmtone AND Classic Arts Polywarmtone. Again the rebadged Bergger version is the most expensive and the Classic seems the least expensive. I think that these practices should be called to the attention of consumers.

-- Corine Schleif (CSchleif@imap4.asu.edu), February 10, 2002.

I too have heard that the Bregger paper is the same as Forte PWT Plus. What I do is buy the Classic Arts paper instead. But having said that I actually use Ilford WT... Confusing, isn't it? :)

-- Russell Brooks (russell@ebrooks.org), February 11, 2002.

I have used both Bergger VC NB and Forte's Polygrade V. They are most definitely *not* the same paper, and I much prefer Bergger's offering in this neutral fiber based category. Can't comment on the warmtone papers, since I haven't tried either of them.

-- Sal Santamaura (santamaura@earthlink.net), February 11, 2002.

Dear Sal, Forte makes several cold tone papers! You are right the the Bergger paper is not Forte Polycontrast 5, but do compare the Bergger to the new Classic Arts Polykaltton (a Forte paper) and decide for yourself!

-- Agnes Frey (Agnes.Frey@gmx.net), February 12, 2002.

For a European it is really hard to understand how urban myth can be kept up for that long in North America: Every serious photographer in Europe knows that Bergger products are Forte products in a different box (and in addition with a higher price tag). It is hard to believe that a company based on this type of "production" can stay in business for so long, especially since some of the products can be purchased for almost half the price in different "boxes".

-- Alfred Michler (AlfredMichler@hotmail.com), February 12, 2002.

In the past Bergger USA was very quick and very vocal to comment on information as the above. I wonder why there there has not been any comment this time.

-- Volker Schier (Volker.Schier@fen-net.de), February 12, 2002.

Interesting discussion. I've used both Forte and Bergger papers, and they seemed quite different to me. I've never heard of Classic Arts Polykaltton. Perhaps it isn't available in the U.S. Since I know there is a film connexion with Forte and Bergger, I wouldn't doubt that there may be a connexion between their papers as well. On the other hand, Bergger's site seems to indicate that the papers are made in France, and some of the very heavy double weight papers from Bergger I have never seen from Forte. I have to admit my access to Forte papers is limited...

-- Steve Stone (sledge68@hotmail.com), February 13, 2002.

In an email to me following one of the past discussions about the topic Bergger Products, Inc. informed me that they do not produce anything themselves. You can easily get hold of the heavy weight Forte papers by calling B&H or Fotoimpex (as Classic Arts).

-- Volker Schier (Volker.Schier@fen-net.de), February 13, 2002.

Simply look for their address in France on the webpage: Funny company that does not even have a real address. I bet they do not want US tourist to show up and find out that it is only a mail box they have in Paris. Only the "US branch" has a real address. One wonders if this is not a US company after all that is only using the "French connection" as disguise to make it harder to detect what they are doing. In Germany Bergger products seem to have no importance at all on the market and Germany is one of the big photo market. This could also be an indicatint that this is all set up for the US market.

-- Alfred Michler (AlfredMichler@hotmail.com), February 13, 2002.

From all of the above and the research that I have done I am sure that Bergger is mainly a USA company that rebadges Forte papers. Now is this not a problem and the practice is not unique. For instance, some of Luminos is made by Kentmere in England. The only problem I see is that Bergger claims to be superior to other papers. And from the comments of some above they have sold this story. As for the heavy weight paper of Forte, I have been using it. It is easily the best paper that I have used. It is 320 gram compared to 235 gram of their regular fiber paper. The tonal range is fantastic. The image is slightly warm using Dektol. The paper has a white base. I recently introduced a very well know professional photographer in the US to this paper. He is well known for his darkroom techniques and wondeful portfolios. He LOVES this paper and ordered a huge amount from Mirko Broeddecker in Berlin Germany. Mirko sells this at very cheap prices and has special prices (without Value Added Taxes), also special prices for shipping to the US. His e-mail address is Mirko.Boeddecker@fotoimpex.de. His web site is www.fotoimpex.de. He sells this paper under the label of Classic Arts Polywarmton. He has 8"X10" and the usual metric sizes. I love the 30cm X 40cm size-- slightly larger than 11"X14". Try it you will love it.

-- Don Spangler (dspang@siscom.net), February 13, 2002.

I fully agree with Don in his assessment, but I think that there is also quite a bit of money involved: Fotoimpex is able to sell 100 sheets 8x10' of Polywarmtone for little more than $30.- (which includes the high German VAT of 17%, which is deducted when the product is exported out of the EU, thus making the box of paper roughly $27.- for US customers -- if my maths is right) and obviously makes a profit. Bergger sells the same paper for more than double the price (without added US sales taxes). The profit margin of Bergger Products Inc. -- even for one box of 100 sheets of paper -- must be enormous. For being able to sell a product for a very high price -- a product which they obviously can buy for a very low price from the factory -- they have to mistify the origins of the product, giving it the aura of something exclusive. For the consumer it means that he buys a product which he believes to be something different than what it actually is -- at least according to the information supplied by Bergger in advertisements and by the statements of Bergger representatives on this listserv -- and in addition for a price which is too high. I guess it is the consumer who is disadvantaged by these practices. On the other hand: The consumer has the choice where to buy.

-- Volker Schier (Volker.Schier@fen-net.de), February 14, 2002.

About the relation between Bergger and Forte: I use Bergger's Prestige NB2 and NB3 (Cold toned graded papers). If these are actually made by Forte, to which Forte papers would they correspond? Some of the Forte papers are 1/2 the price of Berggers, but others are about the same price.

RON

-- Ronald Gans (rgans@nyc.rr.com), February 16, 2002.

Well,

Pretty soon you'll have me associated with Enron.

I'm saying this for the last time. Bergger is NOT repackaged Forte. Those with enough experience that have used both papers can and do see the difference.

I simply don't know what else to tell you guys.

Good luck,

John Horowy Vice President of Sales

-- John Horowy (sales@bergger.com), February 17, 2002.

Dear Ronald, the paper you use is sold for example also as Forte Muzeum or Classic Arts Museum (the latter for little less than $40 in 8x10 100 sheets). Try it and you will definitly find it to be the same! Enjoy the beautiful Forte papers.

-- Volker Schier (volker.schier@fen-net.de), February 17, 2002.

Dear Mr. Horowy, I have been in the business for a long time, I have used both of them and I am afraid I cannot tell the difference! What yo obviously try to do in your comment seems the standard practice of some companies as soon as they run out of arguments: They simply imply that the other people out there are lacking experience. I wonder who is the professional, you or me.

-- Alfred Michler (AlfredMichler@hotmail.com), February 17, 2002.

Whoever makes the paper, it's great paper. Just not all that available. I have tried contacting Bergger in France with some questions (about other issues), at info@bergger.fr, but have never received a response from them. I would like to hear something definitive from both Bergger (France) and Forte about this. The thing is, on Bergger's web site, their English blurb does not actually claim they manufacture anything. The French version is much more specific:

"Nous continuons la tradition de fabrication de produits de qualité, spécialement des papiers photographiques noir et blanc dont la gamme s'est considérablement enrichie, ainsi que des produits adaptés aux procédés alternatifs.

Nous pensons que nos produits de haute qualité vous permettront d'exprimer, de manière originale, votre créativité et votre talent."

Of course, a close reading of the French version also indicates they do not actually claim they manufacture, but it is very suggestive.

I'm going to test the papers myself (Bromofort vs Prestige).

-- Ronald Gans (rgans@nyc.rr.com), February 17, 2002.

Mr.Michler,

I have not run out of arguments, but I failed to see who elected you judge and me public defendant.

I have clearly stated here and all over the interent that Bergger uses manufacturing facilities all over Europe.

Ask your Sear Kenmore dealer where the factory is. Ask Luminos where the factory is. Ask Zone VI where the factory is. Ask Epson where the factory is. Get my point?

What you accusing me of is simply fraud. This insults me and my organization.

I appologize to Ed and all who read this thread, but enough is enough.

If you don't like Bergger Products, don't use them.

John Horowy Bergger Products, Inc.

-- John Horowy (sales@bergger.com), February 17, 2002.

Dear Mr. Horrowy, please reread my comments carefully. I have never accused you of fraud nor have I implied this. I want to make this point very clear. As to the French text on the Bergger site: I guess General Motors, Ford, VW, Honda, Mitsubishi, Renault and many other car makers see their production of cars in the tradition of Carl Benz!

-- Alfred Michler (AlfredMichler@hotmail.com), February 17, 2002.

John, I find your comparisons very interesting indeed, but also puzzling. Do you want to tell us that you compare the way Bergger does business to Sears, Luminos etc.? Off course everyone knows that Sears for example does not produce any of the goods they sell, they have them rebadged by the manufacturers. I own a Sears washmashine which is also sold as Frigidaire and GE and is produced by Frigidaire (see for example Consumer Reports). Obviously neither of these three washmashines is better or worse, they are identical, only the price differs. If this is what you are trying to tell us by using these comparisons than you actually do admit that Bergger is rebadging the products they sell. I would not know how else to interpret this comment of yours.

-- Volker Schier (volker.schier@fen-net.de), February 18, 2002.

Mr.Schier,

We manufacture to our specifications. We use facilities all over Europe that have the expertise in the products we're producing. Some do a better job for film, some for paper. We contract the machinery and time and mix our own emulsions, period.

We do Not rebadge anyones products.

I don't know what else I can't tell you.

John Horowy Bergger Products, Inc.

-- John Horowy (sales@bergger.com), February 18, 2002.

As someone who has worked in the photo industry I can tell you that this is not the way it workes. The "mixing" of emulsion -- as you call it -- is a process which is very specific for one setup. It is hardly possible to simply take one "ipe" and and have it made by different manufacuters, despite the fact that I have not heard of any manufacturer who whould do this.

-- Agnes Frey (Agnes.Frey@gmx.net), February 18, 2002.

So what's your point?

That you used to work in the photo industry, or that you haven't heard of any manufacturer that does this?

-- John Horowy (sales@bergger.com), February 18, 2002.

John, I think we have reached a point were it gets really ridiculous. I think everyone understands quite well what Agnes is trying to tell us -- obviously without the exception of you: The analogue would be that Sears sends their people over to Frigidaire (to stick to your comparison as an example) to use their machines to build Sears washingmashines! I think everyone knows that this is not how it is done! I guess you really can't argue that Bergger people are going to Vacs in Hungary to mix up the emulsion to be coated. Despite that Forte would not allow this, it does not explain that the products are the same. The Bergger people then would have to mix up Forte emulsion to make this miracle happen. Agnes has already pointed out that the curves of Bergger film and Forte film are identical. I think this is more than proof.

-- Volker Schier (volker.schier@fen-net.de), February 18, 2002.

Mr. Schier,

It's obvious that I can't give you an answer that you will be happy with, So I'm not sure I even owe you one at this point.

I do not appreciate being accused of being a lier!

Bergger has 1000's of satisfied customers, all appreciate what this little company brings to the pallete of papers in this country.

Now, please go find someone else to pick on, and possibly get a little psychiatric help while you're at it.

-- John Horowy (sales@bergger.com), February 18, 2002.

Dear readers of this listserv, I think the last statement by John Horrowy speaks for itself. I am convinced that a manager of a serious photographic company would never write comments like this. Just for the record: I did not accuse you of lying.

-- Volker Schier (volker.schier@fen-net.de), February 18, 2002.

Volker,

Than what exactly are you accusing John of?

For the record, I could care less if Bergger papers and film were manufactured by elves in a tree. I've used both and I like the results.

You on the other hand seem to have some chip on your shoulder. You badger John and the other members of this board on and off list every time Bergger products are discussed or even mentioned in other contexts.

Do you have something on YOUR mind you'd like to share with the class? Is there something YOU know that we don't? I didn't think so.

And for the record again, please don't email me off list again. I could do without the spam.

-- David Parmet (david@parmet.net), February 18, 2002.

Just a moment Dave: We are all on this list to discuss matters of photography. Volker's arguments are very good and he has the same right as all of us have to contribute to this list. In fact he addresses issues that many of us are interested in. We do not live in Enronland, were the industry controls publicity. Our country is built on free speech. I also think that the answers Mr. Horowy gives are more than thin. In addition to that I think that there is no excuse for insulting Volker. Since you defend Bergger that much: Are there any connections between you and Bergger.

-- Corine Schleif (CSchleif@imap4.asu.edu), February 18, 2002.

Hi,

Thanks for every ones replies to my question.

I have one more, Is Fomapan T200 the same as Fortepan 200?

Thanks, Paul

-- Paul Jones (mr_nrg@hotmail.com), February 18, 2002.

Yes Corine, My whole house was built with bribes from John and I named my first born son Bergger.

In fact, I'm really just a Berggerbot. Even as we speak I'm tossing out all the Oriental Seagull, Tri-X, Verichrome Pan and Ilford MG IV out of my darkroom and I'm planning on doing the whole thing over with Bergger advertisments.

Now really, does invoking Enron really bring anything intelligent to this conversation or do you just want to delve into further conspiracy theories?

Cause I've got a ton of them but I don't think any of them are appropriate to this forum, despite what other folks may think.

-- David Parmet (david@parmet.net), February 18, 2002.

And another thing....

Considering that Bergger is one of only two companies I'm aware of that have ever responded to a question or comment on these boards concerning their products, I think John deserves far better treatment than the roughing up he received here.

The universe of black and white film and chemical suppliers is shrinking daily. I think the efforts shown by the representative of Bergger as well as the other company in question on these boards speak volumes about their commitment to the black and white photography community.

And I think it's pretty sad that some will take my words to mean I'm on the take.

-- David Parmet (david@parmet.net), February 18, 2002.

Dave, calm down! Volker has every right to say what they want to say, also you have this right and Bergger, as long as they do not insult anyone. So far I have only seen the Bergger representative insult someone here and this should not be tolerated. The highest penalty in soccer is the Red car. I will definitly show him mine, since I think his last comment disqualifies him as someone I want to do business with. I guess this discussion is very necessary, since in this world much has to do with money, also photography. I definitly want to buy the best products for the least money. That the B&W market is getting smaller is really no argument, as long as the manufacutring companies stay in business.

-- Alfred Michler (Alfred.Michler@hotmail.com), February 18, 2002.

Dear Paul, to you question: No, they are not the same and very different in characteristics. Fomapan T200 is my favourite film.

-- Volker Schier (Volker.Schier@fen-net.de), February 18, 2002.

Dear Mr. Parmet, dear Mr. Horowy, I did not want to send any further comments to this specific question, but now I feel I have to. Mr. Horowy, you write a lot about your company being insulted, which I do not see, but I think there is absolutely no reason for ad hominem attacks. Mr. Parmet, please stay reasonable. Your answer to Ms. Schleif is not productive at all. This is a listserv for discussion and all relevant topics should be addressed. I feel this is a relevant topic.

-- Agnes Frey (Agnes.Frey@gmx.net), February 18, 2002.

I am not convinced that the Classic Art Polywarmton is the same as Forte PWT Plus. I have both and printed on both and get different results. It could be age, it could also be that the wrong thing got into the Classic batch...
As far the the debate goes I think it's time to stop the Bregger "bashing". If they repackage Forte or any other brand it doesnt really matter. Many companies in many industries do this and it's legal and even ethical. It's up to us to decide if the "added value" of the new label is worth something to us. The best example of this was a marshmellow factory in Las Vegas. It seems all the marshmellows in the US come off the same assembly line. If you want to pay more for the stay-puff brand instead of the local generic brand then so be it. And my comment to the Bregger representative is to just stay above the fight and to stop commenting on this thread.

-- Russell Brooks (russell@ebrooks.org), February 19, 2002.

Hello ! I've seen a lot of "noise" regarding Bergger products. I've read numerous interviews of the CEO of Bergger in France. He admited the do not produce themselve the papers they sell, but that those paper are custom made for them in west europe, india, and maybe other places. He told that they ask for a recipe because he knew this recipe is working because it was a Guilleminot one. And he stated that today, to make a FB paper you must be doing RC B&W or color in order to make the money the FB will cost you. But if I've understood him well, none of his contractor will have the right to use the recipe for its own products. So you may come close, but not the same. I was told that some paper where made in the Czech Foma factory and that they switched elsewhere due to quality concern ? (the FOMA group does not have FB variable papers on their listings) So you may have some papers from Forte, from Foma, from Sterling, and others... BTW someone told me that TETENAL papers are not made by TETENAL..... Who knows ?

-- georges Giralt (georges.giralt@free.fr), February 19, 2002.

If Bergger farms out production to other makersthat would explain some of the vagueness on their web site. The quality of the product, so far in my limited experience, has been wonderful. Quality control issues aside, it's a great idea because it lowers the capital outlay and thereby the risk, allowing them more flexibility over the long haul, with varying market conditions. However, the notion that Forte=Bergger does persist, has been around for a few years, and apparently is the belief among some retailers in Europe. If Forte != Bergger, then that would also explain some of John's exasperation.

-- Ronald Gans (rgans@nyc.rr.com), February 19, 2002.

It seems that the tetenal paper's are actually from AGFA.

-- Russell Brooks (russell@ebrooks.org), February 20, 2002.

Russell, I compared Bergger and Forte warmtone papers and had the impression that they were identical. I cannot detect any difference in paper base or emulsion.

-- Fritz Reckow (FritzReckow@netlane.com), February 21, 2002.

I find it a bit unusual that every time Dr. Schier posts on the same day as Agnes Frey and Alfred Michler they all have the same IP address, traceable to Arizona State University. Dr. Corine Schleif is a real person--a scholar at Arizona State, who collaborates with Dr. Schier--but I am unable to verify that these other folks are real. It is also a bit unusual that these folks never seem to make posts regarding any other subject. One might conclude that Dr. Schier has some sort of vendetta against Bergger. That doesn't prove that he is incorrect in regard to the origin of Bergger products, but it does cast doubt on his motives. Why does he take every opportunity to denigrate Bergger? Surely it is more than just a desire to keep us poor fools from getting ripped off.

-- Ed Buffaloe (edb@unblinkingeye.com), February 22, 2002.

Volker Schier has made some very disparaging remarks concerning Bergger Products and John Horowy. They seem to be opinion stated as fact. I doubt that anyone on this list has the credentials necessary to back up the contrary claims that have been made regarding the aforementioned. I am quite sure that with the exception of John Horowy, no one, including Volker Schier, has ever been in a facility that produces either Forte or Bergger materials. I suggest that Volker Schier come forward with his or her phone number and mailing address so that Mr. Horowy may at least have an avenue open for an appropriate response. During the discovery portion of a civil court action Volker Schier could demand to see Bergger's manufacturing operation as well as the documentation supporting it's formulas. This might have a calming effect on Volker Schier's ire. Also during discovery, Mr. Horowy would be able to see the support materials that lead Volker Schier to his or her incredible and damaging statements. Let a jury decide who is telling the truth. I firmly believe Bergger and John Horowy would prevail in court. Hiding behind the email address of a large university allows anyone to say anything without fear of sanction. Stepping forward in full disclosure requires a bit more truth and character than Volker Schier may possess. Shame on anyone that would spread such nonsense, and shame on anyone that would listen to it.

-- Bob Randall (bob@bobrandall.com), February 22, 2002.

Very interesting information, Ed. Not wanting to fan the flames in this thread, I sent a message directly to Agnes Frey asking for further information about "...the new Classic Arts Polykaltton (a Forte paper)..." she mentioned in her February 12, 2002 post right after mine. I also asked what country she was in, since I had never heard of this paper in the US. My message was neither answered nor returned "undeliverable."

-- Sal Santamaura (santamaura@earthlink.net), February 22, 2002.

I certainly wasn't suggesting that Volker Schier is a fake--he is a scholar with an international reputation in his field, and he obviously knows a great deal about photography. But in every case in which either Agnes Frey or Alfred Michler have made a post, Volker Schier made a post on that same day and the IP address from which the various posts originated were the same. And in every case the posts are anti-Bergger or pro-Volker. Go figure.

-- Ed Buffaloe (edb@unblinkingeye.com), February 22, 2002.

The Classic Arts Polykaltton paper can be purchased from Photo Impex. Agnes Frey was Albrecht Durer's wife.

-- Ed Buffaloe (edb@unblinkingeye.com), February 22, 2002.

Absent any response from "Mrs. Durer" I had already done a Google search and evaluated the viability of trying Classic Arts Polykaltton. Let's see: no 8x10, the next larger size is 24x30 cm; 50 sheets cost 27 Euros; assuming that package is under 2 kg, add 15 Euros for international air mail shipping (do I worry about x- rays?); when it arrives at my US Post Office I go there, fill out a Customs Declaration and pay tax and duty. No thanks. We're not discussing Gitzo carbon fiber tripods and Robert White here. Even if this paper is an exact duplicate of Bergger's fiber VC NB, it hardly seems worth the trouble. Mr. Horowy does a fine job handling all the importing details, and Calumet just sent a flyer announcing it carries Bergger papers, including prices lower than those at B&H. I'll happily support those importers who provide quality products at a reasonable price with good service. Location of their manufacturers' factories is of no concern to me.

-- Sal Santamaura (santamaura@earthlink.net), February 22, 2002.

Classic PWT is a beautiful paper. I used Forte PWT before and since I can't see a difference (weight, contrast, tone) between Classic and Forte (Classic is a bit faster?) I use the Classic since it is cheaper for me. I have never used Bergger (too expensive, even in Europe) but I might give them a try later this year. I will try the other Classic papers (PKT) soon.

Regards

-- Dirk De la Marche (dirk.de_la_marche@alcatel.be), February 25, 2002.