Is the Voigtlander 21 finder really a 15?

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I just bought a Voigtlander 21 lens and brightline finder. It seems as if the 21 finder is very similar to the Voigtlander 15 finder in optics, with the 21 brightline frame added in the 21 finder.

I wonder if Voigtlander added a brightline frame to the 15 to get the 21 finder or if the optics are really quite different.

-- Tom (therbert@miami.edu), January 30, 2002

Answers

To clarify - The field of view to the outer edge of the finder image seems to be the same with the 15 and 21 finders. The 21 just places a brightline, which the 15 doesn't have, inside the field of view of the finder.

-- Tom (therbert@miami.edu), January 30, 2002.

Tom,

I don't know about that Tom, but I bought a voigtlander 21 finder because of the low price and found that when using it with the leitz 21/3.4 super angulon and the leica 21 pre-asph, the finder made objects appear closer than they ultimately appeared on film. The result was that objects in my prints, espeically faces, appeared disappointingly far away, not at all like I remembered seeing them when looking through the finder as I took the picture. I looked through the voigtlander finder and a leica 21 finder side by side at a store on Leica day to compare the view and confirmed, in my mind at least, that the framing looked similar, but the size of objects in the viewfinder did not. I was not displeased with the fit, finish and brightness of the voigtlander, but accuracy of the image was a problem.

I ultimately purchased the leica 21-24-28 finder and am much happier with the results. I wonder if anyone else has had a similar experience.

-- Peter B. Goldstein (peter.goldstein@us.cgeyc.com), January 30, 2002.


I'll bet that the Leica finder has a less distorted image than the Voigtlander finders. But, I'm hoping to be able to use the 15 and 21 on my M6 without changing finders from the 21, even considering that there might be some framing error.

The Leica finder would be a nice acquisition but I think that after some recent purchases, I might wait for a holiday or birthday for more gear.

-- Tom (therbert@miami.edu), January 30, 2002.


Hi Tom, I finally got home and am holding both finders up to my eye. The 21 is REALLY close in coverage to the 15, BUT... to my eye I have to move my eye around more to see the entire image, and it appears far more distorted at the edges. This may just be from off-centering my eye, or that Im moving my eye closer to get the image, but Im not sure. The 15 seems much better to me, and I dont think that I would want to shoot a lot of shots using the 21 as a 15 finder. It might do in a pinch, but its uncomfortable (for me).

-- Marke Gilbert (Bohdi137@aol.com), January 30, 2002.

Marke - I thought the same thing .. that the 15 finder was slightly better for the 15 and I had to move my eye around with the 21. But, I thought maybe it was just me! Now I have an independent observation.

-- Tom (therbert@miami.edu), January 30, 2002.


Tom,

Why not just do a simple on-film test? Put your camera on a tripod about 8 feet or so from a wall with the 21mm finder on the shoe. Verbally direct a friend to put a piece of tape at the four corners of the frame line (8 pieces total... 4 for the 15mm and 4 for the 21mm frame). Now take a shot with both the 21mm and 15mm lenses. The tape should be at (or very close to) the corners of the frame for the 21mm lens and of course for the 15mm lens the outer most tape should be at the corners, (while the 21mm tape would be there too, just more in the middle).

If the single 21mm finder lets you do this, then it would no doubt be usable for both lenses, albeit with the distraction of the additional frame lines when using the 15mm lens.

-- Al Smith (smith58@msn.com), January 30, 2002.


You know something friends, I was normal until I started this. Now I am paranoid about using different M mount lens on different cameras, my new Leica motor winder, and now this.

Right. I looked through my VC 21mm finder and then through the VC rightangle finder with the 21mm attachment. Yes indeed, everything looks bigger in the 21mm eye level finder. The field of view is the same--21mm, no more and no less. But yes, in the waistlevel finder things seem far away and with the eye level finder things look like they were jumping out at me.

This should not affect the quality of you photography if you put yourself into a 21mm frame of mind. I am serious.

It so happened that today I was photographing my department's students reading their abstracts in an auditorium. I was using an M-3, an M-6 classic 0.72 and my M6 TTL 0.58. At 50mm I had the same effect that Tom talks about. With the 0.58 the subject seemed far away; with the M-3 the object seemed on top of me. It hit me that the 0.58 50mm seemed more "right" than the M-3 (0.9 I think). I mean I was more aware of the space around my subject with 0.58. I think that is what people are experiencing with the VC 21mm finder. There seems a philosophy behind this finder as there is to the finder of the M-3. That is that it is designed for you to see your subject more clearly.

I too was struck with the idea that this finder is based on the 15mm finder. But then I sense that the Leica 24mm finder is really a 21mm finder with 24mm frames. I've used mine for both 24 and 21 mm lenses.

Tom, did you, by any chance get a VC 21/4 lens with that finder? That is the best deal in town. Lens and finder for just over the price of a Leica 21mm finder alone.

-- Alex Shishin (shishin@pp.iij4-u.or.jp), January 31, 2002.


I didn't notice any framing problem using the Voigtlander 21mm finder with my Leica 21/2.8 and the Leica 21mm finder with my Voigtlander 21/4 (don't ask me why, I just prefer the combo that way!), but now I'm getting paranoid too . . . . :-)

-- Hoyin Lee (leehoyin@hutchcity.com), January 31, 2002.

crazy thread. If you are at point A and you observe a scene through any viewfinder with an angle of view of x degrees, you will always get a very close approximation of what will be on the film shot through a lens covering those x degrees.

The distance to object remains the same and the proportions of the object in the viewfinder are the same as they will be on the picture.

The view inside the 50mm brightlines of the 0.58 is exactly the same as the view inside the 50mm frame of the M3. Your eye and brain do a little work and compensate magnification effects.

Now, in all logic, if the 21mm VC finder shows in fact the angle of view of the 15mm with 21mm brightlines thrown in, that means that the magnification is LOWER than the 21mm leica finder, and thus the objects will seem at first glance further and smaller. Just like the 0.58 finder opposed to the 0.85 finder.

But if your brain adjusts to the brighlines, as it should, you will find no mysterious change of perceived distance to object on the final print.

-- Jacques (jacquesbalthazar@hotmail.com), January 31, 2002.


Thank you Jacques. That's what I wanted to say in my own low-tech terms--I guess. Truth is that your eye is fooled in the situations we've talked about. Going from M-3 to M-6 0.058 makes you reconsider the same motif framed exactly the same way. At least that's what I found.

Anyway, friends, use the Voigtlander 21 finder in peace and good mental health. It is a perfectly good finder.

-- Alex Shishin (shishin@pp.iij4-u.or.jp), January 31, 2002.



I just picked up my first roll of transparencies taken with the Voigtlander 21 and the Voigtlander finder. The slides seem to be as close to the finder coverage as I remember. I'm very happy with the lens and finder.

Maybe sometime I'll make a test, marking the corners of the field as one person suggested and figure out the exact coverage of the 21 brightline and the outer field of view. But, I'm happy with the finder as a 21 view and will check out how well I like it for the 15. Right now the 21 finder is living on my 0.58 body which seems to work nicely for everything up through my 75 voigtlander. (Which I have no problem focusing with the 0.58.)

-- Tom (therbert@miami.edu), January 31, 2002.


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