Is the new Motor M safe to be used at all speeds in single Shots? Do i have to switch to manual winding if shots below sync speeds? will any damage occur when the shutter button is released at one second with the motor at I setting? thanx , everybody!

-- mg (mg_a@excite.com), January 28, 2002

Answers

You can only use the motor in speeds 1/250,1/500 and 1/1000.If you use speeds any slower you will badly damage camera.Another thing about the M motor is that if you leave it turned on while the camera is off it can cause an electrical arc that will short the internal electronics of your camera.If left for longer than a few hours it can fuse the tiny metal parts in the rangefinder mechanism(this can also happen if the flash is left turned on).Leica make exellent cameras,but they are very delicate.Beware!

-- Harry Simmons (harrysimmons@star.com), January 28, 2002.

"You can only use the motor in speeds 1/250,1/500 and 1/1000.If you use speeds any slower you will badly damage camera.Another thing about the M motor is that if you leave it turned on while the camera is off it can cause an electrical arc that will short the internal electronics of your camera.If left for longer than a few hours it can fuse the tiny metal parts in the rangefinder mechanism(this can also happen if the flash is left turned on).Leica make exellent cameras,but they are very delicate.Beware! "

Hahahahahahahahahaha.

This is the best thing I've read on this list in months!

And, of course, it's pure bull!

-- Robert Schneider (rolopix@yahoo.com), January 28, 2002.

I used the M winder on a vintage IIIf and a genie popped out and gave me a M6TTL- of course then i put the M winder on the M6TTL and it blew up......

sigh....

where do you people come from?

Bob K

-- Bob Keene (kabob3@mediaone.net), January 28, 2002.

A very good question and the answer is probably. On some cameras the winding mechanism is released before the shutter has fully complete its cycle. This gives results similar to shutter bounce and can damage the shutter. If you must use a Winder/Motor-M at speeds slower than 1/50, hold the release down until the shutter cycle is complete. The winding mechanism will not be able to work until you lift your finger.

-- John Collier (jbcollier@powersurfr.com), January 28, 2002.

Again the @#*#@# motor winder! I've been using my new motor (out of the box) with my new (out of the box) M6 TTL. I've shot at fast and slow speeds and it's been fine.

John, could you be a bit more specific? Is there, in your view, a difference in using the new motor / winder on an M4-2 (say) and a new M6 TTL?

My own advice has been to use only the new motor winder and to leave the old motor winders alone. I've also argued that it is best to use the new motors only with new cameras. I am thus only keeping my motor on the M6 TTL and keeping off my M6 classic which was bought in mint condition and is a late model (#2419562).

How safe would I be in using the motor / winder at all speeds on and with it set to I and II on the M6 classic as opposed to the M6 TTL? Is my advise, based on mine and others' experience and advice even sound?

Anyone know what Leica's official advise is in this regard?

Some experiences from the field would be greatly welcomed.

-- Alex Shishin (shishin@pp.iij4-u.or.jp), January 28, 2002.

I cannot comment directly on the Motor-M as I never bought one. However the mechanism in the Motor and M6-TTL is essentially unchanged form the Winder and earlier bodies. The shutter fires, completes its cycle and releases the shutter winding mech. The released shutter winding mech allows the Motor to turn kicking in a high power mode. The shutter winding mech completes its cycle and locks again. This stops the Motor and triggers a low power idling phase. That is all there is to it really.

Unfortunately, the M camera was never really designed to be motorised. All mechanical cameras had problems synchronising their cameras and motors together. With the F and F2, Nikon did not recommend the use of the motor below the flash sync speed and had different shutter ranges that could be used depending on the speed selected for the Motor.

What the M needs is a simple electric switch that does not allow the motor to work until the shutter has completed its cycle. On some cameras, especially at speeds slower than 1/50, the motor starts winding before the shutter is finished its cycle. I am sure these cameras can be adjusted and readjusted as required but you still cannot get around the fact that it is a bit of cobbled together system.

The problems were legion with the Winder-Ms and I am afraid to say that I have heard reports from Motor-M users too that are not encouraging. So if you do not want to have any problems period, only use it in continuous with speeds 1/50 or faster. When using slower speeds, use the Motor/Winder as a single shot device and keep that release depressed until the shutter has completely cycled.

I come by my advice the hard way, and I heard it from an official Leica tech who did not minced his words.

-- John Collier (jbcollier@powersurfr.com), January 29, 2002.

PS: The official Leica position is that there are no problems and there never were any problems. :-)

-- John Collier (jbcollier@powersurfr.com), January 29, 2002.

thanx! all for the feedbacks.i know its a bit of paranoia with leicaphiles but ,for some it takes years to acquire these fine but not so perfect things.anyway its your money!its good that ppl like Tony,Jack,John,Alex....to name a few still exist!thanx guys!! mg

-- mg (mg_a@excite.com), January 29, 2002.

Thanks John!!

You may have saved my new M6, and my money, and a few brain cells!

I found John's advice quoted on Andrew Nemeth's FAQ Leica website (azn@nemeng.com)

Here it is the tail end of it and some more:

[John writes:] The technician pleaded with me to always lift my finger off the release when the speeds are below 1/50th. I listened and have had no problem since then. [Andrew Neath writes:] This sounds like sensible advice, although I would never shoot continuous below 1/125th anyway due to the shutter button recoil and resultant camera shake (as noted above). Use the "II" setting for continuous sequences and only use the "I" setting for one-off frames. The reason for this is that on the low- torque "I" setting, the film is transported so slowly that it isn't fully stationary when the front shutter curtain opens for the next shot in the sequence. No problem if you are pausing between individual shots, but if you want to shoot a continuous sequence as fast as the motor can go, then on "I" you will get LHS smearing in shots following #1 in the sequence. OTOH, this never happens on the "II" setting, presumably because there the film is yanked quickly into place and is fully stationary when the shutter opens for the next shot. The battery holder post isn't amazingly strong as it is only attatched to the motor portion by a single dove-tail joint. So it is unwise to yank the camera about by the battery housing when using a heavy lens (say a Noctilux or the 75mm or 90mm Summicrons). The motor outer casing isn't all that strong either, certainly nowhere near that of Abrahamsson's Rapidwinder (which is made from titanium plated aerospace alloy!)

And here I am again: Whew! Just in time. I'll take better care from now on. I guess I've had no problems because I always take my finger off and never shoot continuously.

What I will do is keep the setting at II from now on. The noise level reduction isn't that great. With street noise it isn't so bad. Not to be used in court rooms, churchs, or in fairly quiet places when you want to be invisible.

I've photographs cats with the motor and they don't seem to mind it. They jumped when I used the Hexar RF -- but distance could have been a factor!

Thanks again John!

-- Alex Shishin (shishin@pp.iij4-u.or.jp), January 29, 2002.

FWIW, I have found the bobbing up and down of the M6 shutter button, due to its mechanical linkage with the Motor-M, to be helpful in avoiding unwanted multiple shots. By contrast, I found the R8 winder, with its electronic linkage to the camera's shutter release, rather difficult to control in this respect.

Also, as John Collier points out, with the M6 you can maintain pressure, temporarily, on the shutter button to prevent the motor from advancing until you're good 'n' ready. In the Motor-M manual, Leica warns against doing this but, in the same breath, claims that no harm will result.

-- Ray Moth (ray_moth@yahoo.com), January 29, 2002.

And do not forget that with some winder/motor and camera combinations, everything is just fine. Thanks for the heads up on not keeping your finger down with the Motor-M...not that it causes any problems. :-)

I often sound pretty down on the winders but actually I am not. I have two Winder-M4-Ps (the last one I bought for $86US) and two RapidWinders. I will admit that the RWs see a great deal more use but that is weight issue more than anything else.

I post warnings on the winders and motors because we all tend to take advantage of the M's ability to shoot slow speeds and that is where problems can arise. Believe it or not (can he be that stupid!) I first found out about the problem when using continuous and 1/15! Needless to say that assignment had to be reshot.

-- John Collier (jbcollier@powersurfr.com), January 29, 2002.

Andrew Nemeth at Leica FAQ, quoted above, says this:

"...[In] June 2001 I made a couple of discoveries which help reduce the amount of bucking the motor can give. Firstly, use a softie for lighter finger-control and so ride the wavesbetween shots easier without jerking the camera so much. Secondly, if you attach the motor tothe older non-metered M4-2 or M4-P, then because you don't have to press the shutter button sodeep to trigger each shot, (since there is no built-in lightmeter there is no second pressure point)you can take your motorized sequence with only very gentle pressure on the shutter, resulting inless recoil than a M6 and thus a smoother ride."

My comment: well and good. But make sure your M4-2 or M4-P have been serviced so that motor and camera mesh properly. I speak from the experience of putting the motor on my now broken down 1985-86 vintage M6 which need to be service (I now realise). Without proper adjustment the motor might not work properly.

I am also glad to hear that John's older M4-P winders are happily buzzing away. I still advise anyone wanting to get one to be careful; make sure it is proper order.

One problem of the older winders in their bulk. The camera won't sit up by itself. The new one will. But A.N. warns that the battery-grip isn't too strong -- as quoted above. A.N. also says that the motor / winder lives permanantly on his M4-P, though he uses it only about 10% of the time. As a 300 g. grip it steadies the camera at slower speeds.

This has been a most useful discussion. Thanks all.

-- Alex Shishin (shishin@pp.iij4-u.or.jp), January 29, 2002.

I'll second to that! Thanx! everyone! mg

-- mg (mg_a@excite.com), January 29, 2002.