Many of the sayings and traditions that we take for granted and are a part of our every day life actually have their origins deep in western culture and history. Many of our traditions and sayings are five and six hundred years old; many of them are actually older. Traditions and sayings enter into the mainstream and we forget their origin, though the tradition still lives on.

Houses had thatched roofs. Thick straw, woven tightly together, piled high, with no wooden supports underneath. It was the only place for the outdoor animals to keep warm, so all the pets, dogs, cats and other small animals, mice, rats, bugs lived in and on the roof. When it rained the roof became slippery and sometimes the animals would slip and fall off the roof. This why "It is raining cats and dogs."

look often, I hope to have one each day!

Happy Future, Jim

-- Jim Raymond (jimr@terraworld.net), January 27, 2002

Answers

Sorry, I don't buy that one. What purpose would it serve dogs and cats to go up on a tightly woven thatched room where they would be exposed to all element? No protection at all. I doubt it would be slick enough to where at least a cat couldn't bite it claws into it for grip. Besides, dogs don't climb very well.

Had you said when it started to rain the cats and dogs appeared at the door wanting to come in, I might have.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), January 27, 2002.

What Ken said. Plus, thatch is not straw (but a sort of reed), it was not woven (as in warp & woof like cloth) but tied onto the wooden supports of the roof in layers.

Now if you're talking a sod roof, you might be able to get away with that explanation for "it's raining goats and sheep", but cats and dogs---never...

-- Julia (charmer24@juno.com), January 27, 2002.

Is that where the saying "Gotta go, the goat fell off the roof"? It's used when you have a very boring person on the phone and you need an excuse to hang up!

-- Ardie /WI (ardie54965@hotmail.com), January 27, 2002.

Poor Jim! I think he was just trying to give us something interesting to ponder. I had heard the same thing about the cats and dogs on the roof. So.......maybe there was something to it.....They were shorter back then and maybe their roof was not as high off the ground.:~) snicker snicker. Either way, he obviously was not starting a debate over the theory. Sorry Jim, it is Winter and it makes a few of us argumentative. Nice try anyway! :~D

-- Nan (davidl41@ipa.net), January 27, 2002.

While I don't 'know' for sure one way or the other, I have heard that very explanation a couple of times in the past over the years. As it stands now, I believe that. If the doubters want to follow up and give us the "right" answer, that would be another thing. Until then, I'm with Jim on this one.

Jim, I happen to love these things about origins. If you're looking for an idea for the next one you post, please tell the origin of the phrase "loose cannon" next. One of my personal favorites but I've forgotten some of the details. Thanks.

-- Gary in Indiana (gk6854@aol.com), January 27, 2002.

Like you Jim I've heard the same thing. I also find this stuff very interesting and not too long ago a whole list of things went through on email. For example where the phrases trench mouth, threshold, etc. came from and it included the raining cats and dogs idea. Please don't let these "doubters" stop you from posting again. :)

-- Anna in Iowa (countryanna54@hotmail.com), January 27, 2002.

Do post more of these, and I promise not to add any rambling scientific jargon reply answers, but couldn’t help myself, this time. Guess cabin fever can even hit in the desert.:)

If you are saying or reporting, that based upon the proven and vindicated science of observation, that cats and dogs used to create their homes by burying into the roof material of ancient roofing materials, and upon certain conditions such dogs and cats were displaced from such loosely constructed housing, evicted so to speak, by a slippery substance of such consistency, magnitude and force, which was beyond their control or foreseeable foresight, causing said dogs and cats to be deposited upon the grounds immediately adjacent to said housing, then it appears you’re your statement(s) appear, in my humble opinion and experience, to have been constructed and based upon careful and thoughtful observations of long duration, extending in some circumstance over many generations, and as such it therefore imparts a far more durable, correct and valid basis upon which a reasonable person can now distinguish between a mere puppy and kitten shower and a dog and cat shower, based not only on the size of the subject being moved but the tenacity and housing construction experience with which adult animal are know to possess and utilize.

-- BC (desertdweller44@yahoo.com), January 27, 2002.

Holy cow B.C.!!! you sound like a lawyer!!! Oh my there is another one, what makes a cow holy?

-- Betsy K in MI (betsyk@pathwaynet.com), January 27, 2002.

BC...huh? giggle. Everybody else...I LOVE this subject. Origins. How about when Grandma said "you look like the Wreck of the Hesperas". Took me 20 years to figure that one out. I know, do you? I wish I had written down all the coloqu.... (spelling challenged, sorry) that my Grandmother came up with. Wow, she had barrels of 'em.

-- Susan in Northern Michigan (cobwoman@yahoo.com), January 27, 2002.

Cows are sacred in India and are never harmed by those of that faith. I think the belief is that they are reincarnated souls, now living comfortable lives as cows.

As for that list that circulated with various phrases like 'threshhold', 'honeymoon', etc, it was started by some medievalists who were having fun with a 'little knowledge'... you know how dangerous that can be.

I liked BC's answer the best.

-- Rod Perrino (redjouster@aol.com), January 27, 2002.

Loose cannon. When military ships were wood the cannons would be help in position by stout ropes. Do to their size, they would pitch greatly from side to side, as well as up and down, depending on the prevailing seas. If a cannon were to break loose it could cause extensive damage by banging around. That saying reflects on someone who has similar potential.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), January 27, 2002.

Snopes is your friend http://www.snopes2.com/.

The origin of "raining cats and dogs".

-- Tis I (nias@coldreams.com), January 28, 2002.

Jim, I believe you... last time it rained cats and dogs here.. I almost stepped in a poodle!

-- Ralph in N.E.Ohio (Roadapple@suite224.net), January 28, 2002.

From the www.scopes2.com site on rrban myths: (Life in the 1500s.)

I'll describe their houses a little. You've heard of thatch roofs, well that's all they were. Thick straw, piled high, with no wood underneath. They were the only place for the little animals to get warm. So all the pets; dogs, cats and other small animals, mice, rats, bugs, all lived in the roof. When it rained it became slippery so sometimes the animals would slip and fall off the roof. Thus the saying, "it's raining cats and dogs,"

Mice, rats, and bugs definitely take up residence in thatch roofs -- to them it's a highrise hay mow. Cats and dogs, however, don't go up there.

The saying it's raining cats and dogs was first noted in the 17th century, not the 16th. A number of theories as to its origin exist:

By evoking the image of cats and dogs fighting in a riotous, all-out manner, it expresses the fury of a sudden downpour.

Primitive drainage systems in use in the 17th century could be overwhelmed by heavy rainstorms, leading to gutters overflowing with debris that included dead animals.

In Northern European mythology, it is believed cats influence the weather and dogs represent wind.

The saying might have derived from the obsolete French word catadoupe, meaning waterfall or cataract.

It might have come from a similar-sounding Greek phrase meaning "an unlikely occurrence."

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In reading the full text of this entry, I note two things from my trip to Croatia in 2001.

Apparently the people were originally significantly shorter than the average today. May be due to their origins being the Croats, who at one time rode with the Huns and chose to stay in the Balkans rather than returning to Asia. I had the chance to go into the house in which numerous generations of my grandmother's family were born. The doorways were only 5'10", not the standard 6'8" of today. I noted the oldest people in the village were also of short stature. My grandfather's older brother's second wife, from photographs, appeared to be about 4'6" tall.

The cemetery in Suhopolje was VERY crowded. Not nice neat rows like we have here. Graves were placed just about anywhere there was room for one. The grave of my great-grandfather and one of his daughter- in-laws was overlapped by another grave. They too buried numerous generations in the same plot. I was told they were buried in coffins of softwood which didn't last long. After a couple of years all which would be left was bones. If someone who died later was to be buried there, any bones uncovered would be set aside and then reburied just under where the new coffin would be placed. If a family couldn't afford a coffin, the deceased were just buried in some type of blanket or sheet, as is still done in some Middle Eastern cultures. Although some men found employment as professional gravediggers, often the family would do their own or hire a day laborer.

As I recall, burying someone '6-feet deep' didn't start until the time of the Black Plague, when it was thought, primarily in England, burying a victim that deep would halt the spread of the disease. Many of these victims were also buried in mass graves.

Also, while the debunker said cats didn't go up on thatched roofs, I suspect they did, to hunt the mice and rats living therein. Likely this was encouraged by the occupants. And if it did start to rain, no doubt the cats jumped off the roof heading to shelter.

In the large Catholic church in Suhopolje, there is an alcove with three saints, the largest of which was St. Florin, the patron saint of firemen. There was also a glass-fronted niche at the fire station across the street for him. I was told this was because when the houses in the village had thatched roofs, a fire in one could quickly spread to all of the houses on that street. Thus, they had a large fear of fires and prayed to St. Florin to spare them.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), January 28, 2002.

How about! The stormy northwest wind is called the cat's nose in the Harz mountains even at the present day. Dogs were attendants of Odin the storm-god and symbols of the winds. In old German pictures the wind is figured as the "head of a dog or wolf," from which blasts issue. The cat therefore symbolizes the down-pouring of rain (the cats' bailiwick), and the dog the strong gusts of wind that accompany a rainstorm; so a rain of "cats and dogs" is a heavy cold rain with wind. bai·li·wick Etymology: Middle English baillifwik, from baillif + wik dwelling place

-- BC (desertdweller44@yahoo.com), January 28, 2002.

My John Seymour self sufficiency homestead guide shows how to make "weaving hooks" for twisting and interweaving thatch reeds into roofing bundles tightly enough to ensure waterproofing and minimize damage by animals attempting to nest in it , such as fowl, cats and dogs."

-- Jay Blair in N. AL (jayblair678@yahoo.com), January 28, 2002.

I don't believe that this can be settled with other "than take your choice of the offerings". For those of you who enjoy these things the National Public Radio show (with website) Says you covers this ground regularly. They said you could choose between the cats and dogs falling off (leaving) the roof or the dead animals being washed away when the gutters filled.

-- kirby (kirbyj@deskmedia.com), January 28, 2002.

"Great Scott!" Does anybody know what that expression came from? I wonder who Scott was and why is he so great?

-- Ben (b_dowell10@hotmail.com), January 28, 2002.