The posts against this have been lost to the ester. Please don't anyone get the impression I have any intention to start grammer editing of the forum. Above and beyond... However, I still feel how you correspond reflects on people's mental image of you.

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I am a strong believer in first impressions, and I also strongly believe it applies to writing. If you were a personnel manager and were reviewing a job application which was written in what appears to be colloquial English today, what would your first impression be?

Someone doesn't need to know every little grammar rule, but just remember these basics will help a good bit:

The letter i when used alone is almost always capitalized as I. The only exception I know of is when used in a company name such as iCorp.

The first letter of a sentence is always capitalized unless it follows a digital number, such as "576 soldiers…" Had the number been spelled out, it would have been "Five hundred and seventy-six…"

Names almost always have the first letter capitalized, such as 101 State Street or Mr. Bob Jones. Exception is when people choose to write their name in lower case, such as Jd Belanger, t.s. elliott or k.d. lang.

Slang shorthand is generally not acceptable in more formal written correspondence, such as the use of 4 instead of for or U or u instead of you. (And absolutely not on job applications.)

Generally the numbers 1-10 are spelled out when used in a sentence. In an address it is optional, such as 4 West Main or Four West Main. Also number ranges can be expressed as numeric, such as 1-4 people…

For the record, in school my worst subjects were Grammer, English, Composition and Spelling. Have learned a bit since then. In college my worst subjects were anything computer-related. Wouldn't you know most of my career was in computers and I write for a hobby.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), January 26, 2002

Answers

I personally like the use of numbers as 1-10 better than written out numbers in sentences, as they provide me with an easy reference point for specific information within a statement.

-- BC (desertdweller44@yahoo.com), January 26, 2002.

Ken, I also like first impressions. When I write I don't want people to have to have a dictionary right beside them. I find that if I read a book with what I call alot of "Fancy words" it makes the story very confusing and I lose interest very fast.

I would rather read something like this, "I really dislike my boss because he thinks he is the best thing to ever to walk this earth."

This would be my second choice, "I really dislike my boss because he has delusions of grandeur."

My least favorite way would be. " I really dislike my boss because he is a megalomaniac."

Lots of people would have to dig out the dictionary to find out what megalomaniac means which would interupt the story.

When I write I always wonder if I should write 9 or nine now I know. The hardest thing for me though is where the commas go in a sentence.I struggle with this with every sentence I write.

Everything that can be wrong in writing I do and I know it, this is why I never started writing until recently. If my book is ever published the publishing companies editor(s) are going to be very busy and frustrated.

Thanks for the helpful info. Anyone have anymore? George

-- george nh (rcoopwalpole@aol.com), January 26, 2002.

All this post is going to do is cause people be self consious about everything they post. I know alot of people that have a wealth of down to earth useful information that probaly didn't get much schooling. I think this post should have stayed deleted, I find it to be rather rude myself and has absoluely nothing to do with homesteading.

-- sherry in Arkansas (chickadee259@yahoo.com), January 26, 2002.

Oy vey!

I will repeat myself. I think proper grammar belongs on the homestead as much as laughter, silliness, and quirkines. It's a part of life and also a part of communicating. That said, may I add the proofreading is also helpful in order to best express our thoughts.

-- Ardie /WI (ardie54965@hotmail.com), January 26, 2002.

Hi Sherry. I understand what you are saying about people becoming self consious. But, some of us are there already because we don't know exactly how to write what we are writing to make it understandable to everyone. We know what we mean but when written out do others?

I myself, being a person who post stories do not find this thread to be offensive at all. Helpful yes, hurtful no.

I would find it very rude if I were to go to one of my stories and find something about grammer posted there but to find it on its own does not bother me at all.

I know that my schooling ended in tenth grade and that is o.k. with me as far as writing goes. I don't believe that a few helpful hints is going to change my writing style.

I do try to dot my i's and cross my t's but there are other areas where a little help is appreciated. George

P.S. when I first saw this thread I thought it may be about my writing and I thought, "Alright, I am going to get some help to the questions I ask myself all the time. But bummer, it didn't say George, here are your mistakes and here is what you can do to correct them.":-)

-- george nh (rcoopwalpole@aol.com), January 26, 2002.

Ken, being a product (survivor) of 12 years of Catholic school I can tell you with confidence that 576 spelled out is five hundred seventy- six. Five hundred and seventy-six spells out two different numbers (500 and 76), as in "The numbers of my two lockers are 500 and 76." Sister Mary Rose would have haunted me had I not mentioned this. ;o)

-- Gary in Indiana (gk6854@aol.com), January 26, 2002.

Ken I'm glad they found your post. You make some very good points. I know many of my typos are from mw not editing or proof reading before I hit the submit button. Manytimes, people write on these boards and are doing other things at the same time. Some are in a hurry to get their point accross before they head out to do chores. I know when I use my instant messanger I never use caps as it takes too much time and you are having an active conversation. I know I can for give and forget grammer mistakes and I like when people like Cabin Fever type in, what I preceive as, their native tongue. I sure hope people don't become shy and stop writing.

Susan

-- Susan northern MN (nanaboo@paulbunyan.net), January 26, 2002.

Rude????? As Ardie often says "oye vey"

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), January 26, 2002.

I taught 5th and 6th grade students for years. I remember teaching them how important it is to learn to write standard English. A great message is often lost if written with poor grammar. If elementary students are taught that good writing is an important life skill, then why should we as adults think the same rules don't apply to us? If anything, we adults need to be role models for the next generation.

As far as commas are concerned, a good rule of thumb is to place a comma where you would take a breath if reading the sentence aloud.

-- Liz Rhein (merhein@shentel.net), January 26, 2002.

Yes good engilish is very important. You won't see it everyday online for a lot of reasons. I try to spell correctly, punctuate, avoid too much slang or at least use it sparingly for effect. I think you have to be pretty forgiving of online postings, they're often rushed, posted by tired people, and not everyone types well or fast. I type fast but not well!! The odd time I have to send a written letter it gets electronically spell checked, proof read, and often audited by my wife or brother or??? Does the person getting that letter see the real me??? They get the careful unhurried, and perhaps respectful me. I care what they read is all they should pull out of that! Nope I try hard not to judge people on first, second, or even third impresions; I've been proven wrong before.

-- Ross (amulet@istar.ca), January 26, 2002.

Wow. First time I've ever had one of my replies deleted. And not about religion or politics, but about *grammar*!!! Sheesh...

-- sheepish (WA) (the_original_sheepish@Hotmail.com), January 26, 2002.

Thanks Ken. The high school my sons graduated from had a Vice Principal that was in the habit of sending long winded emails containing poor grammar, punctuation and spelling to parents on his email list. I suggested that he should proofread his emails before transmitting. His reply was "email is about rapid communication and is not a writing contest". This man taught English prior to getting into Administration. Now we know why our youth utilizes poor English. One of my frequent peeves is the confusion in the use of the possessive and the contraction as in "your" and "you're". However, I do have a problem myself that my school teacher wife frequently corrects. Is it "i before e, except after c' or "e before i, except after c". I can never remember. Senior moments I guess.

-- David A. (mncscott@ak.net), January 26, 2002.

My My, gettin a mite high-falutin around here,aint it.....

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), January 26, 2002.

For the reasons Ken gave, I think grammar is important. Many homesteaders need occasional or consistent off-homestead work. If you write a letter of application or a quotation that distracts people from the message you're trying to put across, then you're placing yourself at a disadvantage. In fact, the same thing applies if you're posting here: your message has a better chance of being received if the way it's expressed doesn't offend or distract people.

The same thing applies for the many people who are being home- schooled. If they can learn to express themselves effectively (and that DOES mean properly, including proper grammar) in writing, then they are again at an advantage compared to the many who learn only indifferent skills in the public school system. They have a better chance of getting a job, they have a better chance of getting a scholarship, they have a better chance of everything good than does someone who can't communicate well.

I realise I'm by no means perfect here. I frequently exhibit a tendency to use circumlocutious polysyllables when I should use short gutsy words (example - laugh - please?). However, I do try to keep things short and punchy. One thing that grates on me is the way people these days utilise "utilise" when they should use "use". In fact, I've begun to use that as a means to judge whether I'll read something or not - there's a lot more words in the world than I can read. If an article I'm reading has "utilise" in it, I tend to stop reading - anyone who'll write that in the middle of normal speech is trying to "pad" their message, and that means they don't have a lot to say.

-- Don Armstrong (darmst@yahoo.com.au), January 26, 2002.

Sorry, David, you posted while I was composing, but anyway think about it. As for the the rule, it's

"'I' before 'E' except after 'C' (except for the 'weird' exception)".

I'm fairly sure there'll be exceptions to that rule too, but it covers almost everything we're likel;y to need.

-- Don Armstrong (darmst@yahoo.com.au), January 26, 2002.

I didn't mention "their", did I?

-- Don Armstrong (darmst@yahoo.com.au), January 26, 2002.

I had done a whole bunch of stuff on this, but my computer did a nasty thing to me and dumpedit. I'll try again later! But, yu must aleays spel wel,or others wil think yu are a bit uv a looser! Gud luk!

-- Brad (homefixer@SacoRiver.net), January 26, 2002.

I was going to agree with sherry [you guys could give some one a complex around here]but I like brads answer best.

-- kathy h (ckhart55@earthlink.net), January 26, 2002.

I personally agree with Ken. I appreciate good grammar, punctuation, and spelling, and I am pretty good at it myself, but that's just my gift. I wouldn't want anyone judging my character on my inability to figure fractions in my head, so I don't judge the folks on the forums based on their lack of language arts training or gifts. I just like to read the posts in whatever "accent" a person might have, and judge it on content. George has fantastic content. Even the best authors need proofreaders! I am a poor author, but I would make a great proofreader! On the "i" before "e" thing: how about "caffeine" and "protein"!

-- Debbie in MO (risingwind@socket.net), January 26, 2002.

I recently read in a book somewhere, that the children of the tribe were taught to be well-spoken, because then they would be able to make others feel the truth as they did.

-- snoozy (bunny@northsound.net), January 26, 2002.

I know it's wrong, but when I see a post (especially one that is attacking me!) that is full of grammatical errors, I can't help but make a judgement about that person's intelligence. It's hard to take someone seriously if they don't even care enough to edit their own writing. (Not just here on the forum, but everywhere.) It's unfortunate, because I probably miss some good stuff due to being unwilling to spend much time deciphering.

-- Shannon at Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary (gratacres@aol.com), January 26, 2002.

As long as we're on this subject one of the things that discourages me from reading a post is the total lack of paragraphs. Its obvious the poster spent alot of time writing it but I really do wish they'd use paragraphs because they make the post much easier to read and make sense of.

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), January 26, 2002.

I think the best best indicator of proper grammer is the format, or the area in which the writer is trying to communicate, if the people useing this forum most often used E-text short hand (RUOK?W/IT)or in the manner of talking louder to someone that doesn't speak the same language (??R/U/OK/W/IT??), then it would be proper grammer, as it is in many chat rooms that require rapid exchange and reply. Dropping Capital letters can be over looked easy enough, as long as there is a space between words, even dropping silent letters, I can overlook most misspelled words, (I have enough of my own) but if it is misspelled, I don't think the writer should get bent out of shape over someone asking what they meant to say.

The vast majority of posters on this forum spell reasonably well, and try to express their ideas in well thought out and well constructed sentences. So that makes traditional letter writing gammer the most appropriate way to expess yourself here.

But certainly not the only "correct" way.

-- Thumper (slrldr@yahoo.com), January 26, 2002.

When I was young (and still today) and asked a question like, "Where's the dog at?", my mom would always respond, "Behind the at." I don't know why this bugged her more than anything else, but if I say at, at the end of a sentence, I always think of her response. I try to check my spelling before submitting a post, but can use some tips on punctuation. It's been awhile since school.....:)

-- Annie (mistletoe6@earthlink.net), January 27, 2002.

I prefer to use as correct grammar and spelling as I can manage myself because I like it and because I want to be a good example, however I don't want anyone to feel uncomfortable about posting on here if they think they can't keep up with what might seem a difficult to attain standard. I enjoy reading wisdom however it is writen, and I do so with gratitude. Please, everyone, if you're responding to one of MY questions; I NEED your answers! Please keep them coming whether they are correct gramatically or not. Oh, and to Mr. Don Armstrong; although of course I retain my mega crush on you, it is utiliZe. At least it is at my house. :) Leslie

-- Leslie in MW OR (leslie@webolium.com), January 27, 2002.

PS: "Writen" was a typo. (LOL!) :) L.

-- Leslie in MW OR (leslie@webolium.com), January 27, 2002.

Don, I was once told that the only difference between the NZ and Australian spelling checker dictionaries is that the Australian version of 'labour' omitts the 'u' and I have wondered if that is due to the name of the political party?

Leslie, please forgive me if I often use an 'S' where you use a 'Z', you might also notice that I tend to insert a 'U' where you would not expect one, likewise I have been known to add a trailing 'e'. In return I will not publicly cringe at words such as 'airplane' and I will make only a minor comment if you tell me a 'kiwi' is a fruit. :)

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), January 27, 2002.

John, "Labor" is only an indication that certain left-of-centre political parties can't spell (and OH! What they've done to our education system!). Of course, those of us who speak English can spell centre, and colour, and utilise (even if we would rather go to gaol than use the word).

However, that's different. Linguistic variations in spelling between the English language (as used in England, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, and so many other countries) and the language used by the inhabitants of the USA aren't really significant. Good grammar doesn't depend on spelling.

-- Don Armstrong (from Australia) (darmst@yahoo.com.au), January 27, 2002.

Written correspondence is much like what is proper in appropriate situations. It operates on various levels and I'll use analogies from when I was employed as a civilian by the USAF:

On two occasions I had to brief a four-star general on the status of a program. You have better believe I got a haircut, trimmed my beard and wore my best bib and tucker. The oral and written elements were very formal in style.

If I had to interact with my Directorate head (normally a one- or two- star), I wore everyday business attire and the communications were less formal.

For interacting with my immediate supervisor or co-workers, a tie was all required and communications were suitable for that level. Since it was an office environment there were still certain taboos, such as not telling politically incorrect jokes - the blonde in the next cubicle may file an EEO complaint. And you went out of your way to avoid even the slightest chance of sexual harassment.

(The blonde bit actually happened to a supervisor in another office. She filed a complaint with his supervisor. Fortunately he mentioned it to an ex-husband of hers who noted she wasn't a natural blonde so she couldn't claim any harassment status.)

If I stopped off at the watering hole for a brew or two with the good old boys on the way home, off came even the tie and communications were adjusted according to the audience.

Maybe my problem is I come from a different generation (I'm 55) of schooling than what is apparently happening today. As soon as you learned to read and write, penmanship and basic grammar were an everyday part of school. Our class lost one girl who got pregnant in the 9th grade, but I don't recall a single drop-out. I graduated in 64, right before Vietnam and a more open society started the drug scene. Heck, pot was only smoked by 'beatniks'. In grammar school I remember having to help mom while she hung out the wash on Monday mornings in the summer and say my multiple tables through ten three times in a row perfect. If I got to 9x9 on the third run and said it was 83, I had to start over. Times are now different and perhaps I'm not adjusting well to them.

In my day if a woman were to wear slacks, much less shorts, to mass, the priest would have probably had a heart attack. Back then you dressed in your 'Sunday going to meeting' attire and women still wore a hat or scarf. Other religions still seem to do this, but the Catholics sure seem to have slacked off. (I noted this in Croatia also.)

Now I see high school graduates who can't compose a simple sentence containing anywhere near what, again in my day and age, was considered to be proper English. I'm told many homework assignments aren't even graded, just the fact you turned in something is what counted.

A couple of years ago the manager of a fast-food restaurant showed me applications he had put in a file. You may not believe the poor grammar in them. He said most of the younger employees can't do simple math without a calculator. Someone may say, "Well, it's for an entry level job anyway, so what's the importance." Probably true, but when it comes to promoting someone to Assistant Shift Supervisor, Shift Supervisor or Assistant Manager, which require frequent written reports, who are they more likely to consider?

If schools aren't teaching the society survival skills needed, and proper English and math are two of them, people basically need to homeschool themselves. I did. All I remember about taking the SAT in high school was everyone in the senior class had to go to the lunch room and take a test. I had no intention of going to college so really didn't care what my score was. I retook it after three years in the Navy and my score went up over 300 points. Not Harvard level, but perhaps Duke. (My mother went through the 8th grade and my father the 5th. Both self-educated themselves further.)

If I have offended anyone with this thread, I apologize. That certainly wasn't my intent or desire. Written correspondence needs to be tailored to the audience, and for things like this forum, I'm not sure what that is. I was just trying to note you can accomplish a lot with just a handful of basic grammar rules.

(P.S. On long paragraphs: To get paragraphs to seperate you need to do return twice. If you just do it once, it will all run together in one paragraph. Same with lists.)

Ken

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), January 27, 2002.

I teach middle school math and they do math that used to be taught in college only, so no offense, but bologna.(y)

-- julie (jbritt@ceva.net), January 27, 2002.

And, all numbers less than one hundered need to be spelled out.

-- julie (jbritt@ceva.net), January 27, 2002.

Ken, regarding your last post, Thanks for the memories! I'm fifty- nine and grew up in the same era and Catholic too. To go to Mass without something to cover our heads or without white gloves was unthinkable. And Sister Vita Marie made certain we didn't to on into eighth grade until our penmanship and grammar was perfect.

-- Ardie /WI (ardie54965@hotmail.com), January 27, 2002.

I’m going out on a limb here, I live in the desert and trees are very scarce, limbs are generally thin and covered with thorns or other uncomfortable things.

I can see a place on this forum, a thread I think it is called, where the items to which Ken speaks would have a place and relevance. This place would be in how to deal with marketing and business contacts. Business situations, for the most part, require or dictate by history and custom a more formal approach.

Perhaps, questions and answers on how to develop and conduct new businesses contacts is something that is applicable to this forum.

Perhaps not, as with all new ideas, it is that a new ideal.

People wanting to sell what they are raising or rearing, beyond their immediate neighbors and local area need to interact with foreign business and sometime people far removed from the farming/homesteading life style and have no understanding as to what an individual goes through to raise crops or rear livestock/poultry. Everything comes pre-packaged from a warehouse, in a sanitary manner, from an unknown producer, marked only by a bar code.

I’m talking about, non-local, business contacts, business letters and the things that businesses deal in daily and either want or expect in a contact meeting, whether it be by phone, letter or email.

I think that little i's and such are part and parcel of this new medium and that it is perfectly acceptable in communication(s) between friends. I'm assuming that this forum is about friends sharing information on subjects which they are interested in or invlved in, eventhough those thoughts or beliefs may not always agree with our own thoughts or beliefs.

-- BC (desertdweller44@yahoo.com), January 27, 2002.

I always thought he first number was spelled out and the reamining numbers in a sentence were written in their numerical form.

I love these littler primers, how much I have forgotten over the years.

Ken, thank you! more, more!!!

-- LurkyLu (lurkylu@yahoo.com), January 27, 2002.

A century ago, Greek and Latin were taught in elementary schools. Now remedial English is a course in many universities. If the urban populace would have a chance to see this long posting, it would forever change their opinion of us as many consider farmers and homesteaders as being too stupid to find a soft job sitting on their behinds. When I see a post where even a two-letter word is misspelled, I sometimes wonder who turned the computer on for them. At the same time, I think of my grandmother. Born in Lillehammer, Norway and came to America in her late teens. Never had a day of school in America. Raised nine children on the farm. When she was in her seventies, she had a stroke which prevented speech. Someone got an idea to get her a typewriter as she still had use of one hand. Only then did the entire family find out that she could not write English! So, I think that some questions/comments may be coming from someone born elsewhere although the days of the Displaced Persons has long passed. Then the days when a sixth grade education was all that was demanded and a child became a farm worker is long gone. That was enough for my father in the 1930s.

I'm a product of one-room schools. When I left the last one in 1951 to enter eighth grade in a Catholic school, it was the final straw for that school as the school could no longer be kept open with only four students! When I finally had classmates, in the eighth grade, I was virtually two grades ahead of them. Spelling had been promoted right from the first grade and taught with the idea that if you can spell words, you can read books and understand everything and increase your knowledge even more. As one person said, if you have to stop to look up a word in the dictionary, you lose your train of thought. That has stuck with me and and if there is a single misspelled word in a book, I'll find it!

Now closing on age 64. It is a delight to type out a lengthy letter and hit Spell Check and have it report OK with no corrections. If you wish to throw stones at anyone for starting this, lay off of Ken. Blame me! Several weeks ago, I messaged direct to Ken about the possibility of adding Spell Check. Could be done but at a large cost. Since this Forum is being supplied at no cost, we must make do with what we have.

And having studied all of the replies, even from those either still in education or having taught in the past, I could probably locate at least one error in each one although some are "typos". Heck, I've even found them in my own postings!

I'll leave you with a chuckle about a word that Ken misspelled. That is separate which he spelled "seperate". In that little one- room school, that was one word that we could never forget. See, Pa? Rat! Eeeeee!

Marty

-- Martin Longseth (paquebot@merr.com), January 28, 2002.

John, Agg! Of course; what we would term British spelling... :( Thanks for putting me straight. I'll try to remember to specify mobile vs. stationary kiwis. Thank you for only cringing in private. I'm afraid YOU must forgive ME.

Don, My deepest apologies. (Drat! Should have realized that you would never have made that simple an error.) No offense meant.

Ken, Thanks! This is a fun and educational thread.

:)

-- Leslie in MW OR, USA (leslie@webolium.com), January 28, 2002.

Even a spell checker has its limits. For example, it won't differentiate the difference between there and their in usage, nor to, too or two. A wise boss once told me one should never proof their own writing.

I know I am bad, in particular, about you, your and you're (typing one when I meant the other).

For those who don't have a spell check feature on their PC, see if your e-mail does. Write your text as an e-mail, spell check, then cut and paste into the forum text block via the right mouse key.

I wish now I had kept the article. Somewhere in, I believe, TN, the valedictorian and salutatorian of a senior class were on academic probation after the first term of their college freshman year.

Ken

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), January 28, 2002.

One thing that drives me up a wall is the use of "real" as an adverb. It is not an adverb -- it is an adjective! Its job is to modify nouns. So many people use is to modify other adjectives, as in "She did a real good job." "Really" is the adverbial form! "She did a really good job." Sometimes I do use real as an adverb if I am trying to speak/write really colloquially, to emphasize the bucolic, either negatively (the bumpkin) or positively (the wise and wily country farmer).

Now, my husband hates the non-existent redundancy "irregardless". So I knowingly use it all the time with him, particularly when I am losing an argument ("Well, that's all very irregardless...")

-- snoozy (bunny@northsound.net), January 30, 2002.

I do not like seeing/hearing "disrespect" used as a verb. When I was growing up, one "showed disrespect to someone", not "disrespected someone". Even writing the above, I had to pause to cringe....

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), January 30, 2002.

An interesting book is "British English A to Zed by Norman W. Schur, for those interested in the differences between US and British English. Lots of translations, and rules for grammar and spelling.

In the US, for example, "company" is treated as an "it", that is a singular entity, in Britain (and wherever British English is spoken), company is treated as a plural "the company are...." (I think it is because of an implied "a company of people" but am not sure.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), January 30, 2002.