Joy...My MIL needs help for her cocketeil. It's a female that has been setting on four eggs (not fertile) for well over a week now, maybe longer. The bird has been getting steadily weaker and I told her today to get rid of the eggs because she seems to be stressing herself over trying to hatch them. What can we feed her that will help to get her back in condition? She doesn't seem to "miss" the eggs and is preening, but is weak and will not fly around the room. Any suggestions??

-- Anonymous, January 24, 2002

Answers

My daughter's cockatiel is sitting on 7 eggs, I think, right now. She gives her plenty of food with calicum in. Scrambled eggs, cheese - stuff like that. If you would like, I can give you her email address and you can ask her. Her bird has been to the vet over this many times. And make sure she is drinking. She may not be moving off those eggs to eat or drink.

-- Anonymous, January 24, 2002

Sorry Marcia - I meant calcium.

-- Anonymous, January 24, 2002

Thanks Dianne. My MIL's bird seemed very reluctant to move off the eggs which were on the floor of the cage. Hopefully, now that we've removed the eggs the bird will take better care of herself! Scrambled eggs seems like an excellent suggestion!!

-- Anonymous, January 24, 2002

Has she laid a lot of eggs in the past? Cockatiel hens often get stuck laying clutch after clutch, and in the long run severely damage their health is you are not lucky and able to manage their health. Laying all those eggs can actually pull calcium out of their skeletal structure, leading to weakened bones (very fragile & fracture prone) as well as sometimes causing muscular weakness.

If she has been expending her body's resources in this way, not only giving her eggs (I prefer hard-boiled myself), but adding in the sterilized, crushed eggshells is a good idea, as well as supplementing with some vitamin E, and other high density nutritional foods such as Missing Link Avian, spirulina, cooked adzuki beans, thawed corn niblets, wheat grass (high in enzymes and live amino acids) and other healthy green foods are all very helpful.

If you think that she may be somewhat off on electrolyte balance, giving her unflavoured Pedialyte to drink is good.

You can give her some therapy by holding her in both your hands, cupped in front of you, with the bird lying in your hands held aloft in the air, and then gently, but quickly bringing your hands down so that the bird lifts her wings and hopefully flaps a little as you do this. Many birds realize that this is a game, especially if you suit your own attitude to it (most birds seem to recognize 'whee!' when yoy say it performing this gesture). I suggest doing this over the bed, so in case the bird bails out and falls, they will land safely and softly. Many owners of disabled cockatiels excercise their birds this way.

I am, however, somewhat concerned about her being markedly weaker from sitting on eggs. A little weakness due to egg sitting is normal, but not being able to fly seems excessive to me. Do you have a good avian vet nearby? If she were my bird, I think I would take her in to be looked over. Let us know how things go.

-- Anonymous, January 25, 2002

I can never remember if it's Joy or Julie that is the bird guru :-)!! Are you guys interchangeable?? Anyways, thanx for the bird info. I just came from my mil's and her cockateil seems a little stronger. Don't know if this bird has laid many eggs in the past. She's 12 yrs. old and my mil just recently acquired her. I'll tell her to check with the former owner about any egg laying history. Hard boiled eggs with the shells makes perfect sense! Duh...I do that with my chickens, you'd think I would've "thunk" about doing that!!! I'll keep ya posted!

-- Anonymous, January 25, 2002

Marcia, I ditto everything that Julie said, but have an addition to make. It is POSSIBLE that she is egg bound. It can be hard to tell, but often you can feel the egg just inside the bird. Sometimes you can get it to come out on it's own, but at this point, I'd take the bird off to a vet (even if it's not egg bound). One experienced in avian medicine would be best, but even a generalist would probably be helpful to get an egg out.

Egg bound stories: Julie had one 'tiel hen that she tried all the "first aid" measures upon -- lubricating the vent, raising the humdity and temperature (putting a damp washcloth on top of a hot water bottle and the 'tiel on top of that). Nothing worked, so off to the vet. She got a whiff of anesthesia (a tricky business with birds, as they are very sensitive, but sometimes you have to take the chance) and went limp, whereupon the egg came out. I had a worse experience. One of my hens was acting "dumpy" and I could feel the egg inside her. The first aid measures didn't work for her either, so off to the vet. X rays showed TWO eggs -- the second couldn't be laid because the first was blocking it. She had to be anesthetized for a much longer period, while the vet removed the first in pieces. The second was smaller and more intact, but still not "layable". The first was very rough and badly formed. We weren't certain why it did that, but the vet recommended extra calcium for her. She didn't have any problems after that, and she seems to have stopped laying now. She never was the "egg machine" that her mother or her cage mate were. And those two "egg machine" birds are both dead now. Just up and died for no discernible reason. I think the excessive egg laying contributed. The other two hens, both who have laid eggs, but not so many, are still hanging in there!

Both Julie and I have cockatiel experience. I've always loved birds, but you could definitely say that she got me "into" cockatiels -- I had a stereotype of them as being mean. They're actually very sweet birds. She had them first, gave me a couple, then some more when she had to give up all her birds due to allergies. At least she can spend a little time with them when she comes to visit me. Except for the African grey parrot and the black-masked lovebird, all my birds were Julie's once upon a time. A couple of them were babies that were given to people who returned them when they got tired of them or couldn't "deal" with them. :-/ They sing me awake in the morning (along with the blatting of the alarm clock!).

-- Anonymous, January 25, 2002

Reporting in about the cockateil....she's doing much better this afternoon. We hard boiled an egg and mixed it with the shells. When we offered it to her, she seemed to be picking out the bits of egg shell!! Not really wanting to fly yet, but she's back to her regular routine of cleaning toast crumbs off the kitchen table :-)! Is there any way of discouraging her from laying (that's probably a stoopid question!)? If she starts again, should we remove the eggs as she lays them? Thanks guys!!

-- Anonymous, January 25, 2002

My daughter has tried everything with her little bird. Nothing seems to help. So I will pass all suggestions along to her also. This is for Julie - I have an Amazon parrot who has been having balance problems. The vet (specialist) did all kinds of blood work and x- rays, only finding that Nick is fine. His feet seem to have lost their ability to grasp things real well. Do either you or Joy have any experience with anything like that? The next step would be neurological, but I probably won't go there.

-- Anonymous, January 25, 2002

Marcia, about the only way to "stop" a 'tiel from laying eggs is to give them a hormone shot. Doesn't always work, has other health concerns, and you have to keep it up. I never had any luck with this next item, but supposedly, decreasing the amount of light they get works for some. One suggestion was to totally disrupt their light cycle. I've forgotten exactly how to do that, maybe Julie remembers. Something like this:

Day one: Uncover bird at 8 am and feed plenty of food
Cover bird at noon
Uncover bird about 11 pm and feed plenty of food. Would have to use artificial light to simulate day.
Day Two: Cover at 5 am
Uncover at 4 pm and feed plenty of food
Cover at 10 pm
Day Three and thereafter: Uncover between 8 and 10 am (whatever time you want to maintain) and allow bird about 8 hours of light, then cover.

The bird must be allowed enough time to eat, so if she gets two meals a day, she should be fed about two hours before covering for the night. The bird should also be in TOTAL darkness when covered and the surroundings should be QUIET.

It didn't work for my egg machine 'tiel (Tiki), though. But she lived in the presence of other birds -- possibly a single 'tiel on her own would be easier to discourage? :-( Sometimes, rearranging the cage interior, removing all toys and especially mirrors, and moving the cage to a different room will discourage them (makes them feel a bit insecure), but only temporarily usually, once they get comfortable again.

Dianne, the thing that comes to mind for me would be a tumor pressing on the leg nerves, BUT [1] x-rays should have showed that if it was there, and [2] usually only one leg is affected first. These tumors are quite common in parakeets, but I'd imagine parrots could be susceptible too. I'm trying to remember, I think lead poisoning could have a symptom of being unable to perch. Hopefully the blood tests included toxicity screening. I hope you will be able to figure out what is wrong. Birds can be very difficult to diagnose.

There are "shelves" available for birds to sit upon, rather than perches. Julie and/or I can make other suggestions for setting up "handicapped" bird quarters if you like. She should tell you about Weedhopper with his leg deformity. One of "our" parakeets, Bahia, ended up with an internal tumor that affected one leg mainly. I knew it was just a matter of time, but she seemed happy to eat, and climb up and down just using one foot and her beak, so Julie and I devised a sort of hammock for her to rest in rather than sit on a perch. She did poop into it, so I had to replace it with a fresh one while I washed the other quite frequently. The shelves weren't easily available back then -- they are like a section of cage bars turned horizontally, so that the poops fall through. If the bird had trouble with the bars, though, I think I'd make polar fleece "slipcovers" for the shelf and just change them frequently. If you made them just slightly too small, they could be stretched to fit and hold on better.

-- Anonymous, January 25, 2002

Julie - thanks for responding. Yes the vet did look at all those things - toxidity was something he had in mind also. His first reaction when he saw nick was seizures of some sort. And sometimes it acts like that. I would like to know about the hammock. He seems more comfortable on a larger perch rather than the standard one for parrots. His appetite is great. And I do give him hard boiled eggs with the shell. He eats just about everything. His feet want to curl up a lot rather than stay open and flat. And he has decided that I am going to kill him if I try to take him out of his cage. He was out playing all the time before, whenever I was home. Now he is just content to stay in. I think because he is so afraid of falling. Thanks again.

-- Anonymous, January 26, 2002

Okay guys (and some friends too) I will try not to sound dumb or judgemental but doesn't it bother you even a little bit that you are trying to make this bird do less natural things. Of course it wants to lay eggs, that is what birds do. If you don't want her to sit, can't you just take them away.

-- Anonymous, January 26, 2002

Kim reminded me, I meant to say that if your 'tiel lays eggs, LET her keep them. Taking them away just keeps them laying, which depletes their bodily reserves (more about that later). I would never give mine nest boxes, because that REALLY puts laying "on their minds", but they would do it anyway. Once they had a clutch and were getting broody, I would rig paper towels over their chosen spot (easy to replace when covered with poop) held up to the bars with a plastic clothes pin (the spring kind), also easier to clean up than wood. They're happier being in a concealed nest.

Okay, now for the constantly laying thing. No, it is not natural for them. In the wild, they will have a clutch per breeding season, though some occasionally might have a second clutch if the year is very "good" or if something happened to the first clutch of eggs. Even in captivity, if the eggs are fertilized, and they hatch out the eggs, the babies will keep them busy being fed and raised longer than if they just sit a clutch for a few weeks, then decide it's not going to hatch, and start in with laying all over again. To say nothing of how many eggs they'll lay if you keep taking them away.

In the wild, the natural state of 'tiels, a female might lay 24 eggs in a years time (I think that's a high estimate). Cockatiels and parakeets have been bred in captivity for so many generations now, they are truly domesticated animals. And just like chickens, many of them will just be egg machines and keep on laying and laying and laying, especially with our tendency to keep them on "long days" with our artificial light. You all know this will deplete their resources, and I just don't think even supplementation completely makes up for the depletion. Missing Link Avian Formula didn't exist when I was having this experience with my girls. It might help more than what I was able to provide them with previously, and there is always the problem of getting them to EAT whatever you're trying to provide them. Some things are a hit and some things are rejected.

Anyway, my first and favorite 'tiel, Tiki, laid way too many eggs. In a few months time, she had laid over 80 eggs, before I lost count. I know she laid many, many eggs after that. I didn't keep up with the count because it was just depressing. Her early life was marred by psittacosis, which was cured eventually (with a LOT of intensive nursing and a lot of vet bills), but I think she had liver damage from it. Anyway, she died at only 7-8 years old, fairly young for a 'tiel (many have lived into their teens and even 20's). As I said before, the two girls that I still have laid eggs in the past, but not terribly many. They seem to have quit now, and they're still alive. The 3 that were egg machines are all dead. Not to mention that when they're broody, they aren't much of pets. Little dragonets! The dear, sweet bird that adored cuddling up with you last week now wants to remove your fingers!

-- Anonymous, January 26, 2002

I guess I wasn't done.

Keeping a bird as a pet, in a cage isn't natural either. But since we're doing it, to have a pet, the attempt to keep it in optimum health and longevity are our main goals. After all, she's a pet, you want her around a long time.

And as far as natural goes, keeping chickens captive isn't natural. Taking their eggs away constantly so that they produce more isn't natural. Extending their laying "season" with artificial lights isn't natural. But the point of keeping chickens (the egg layers anyway) is to get eggs. So we artificially manipulate their environment to get more eggs.

And now at the end (I hope and I bet you all do too) of my dissertation here, I must mention that I took no offense at your questions, Kim. I appreciate the opportunity to expound more on the subject! Though maybe you're sorry you mentioned it . . . .;-)

-- Anonymous, January 26, 2002

Joy...so you're saying that if my mil takes her bird's eggs, "Monroe" (the bird!) will keep on laying...but for how long? When she left the eggs with Monroe, that's when the bird started spending all her time on those four eggs and barely ate enough to keep her self alive...I guess. What will be less stressful...laying egg after egg or setting on them?? Gosh! It would be so much easier if we could get Monroe spayed :-)!!!

-- Anonymous, January 26, 2002

I wasn't feeling well the last couple days, so I haven't been on the computer much.

Dealing with female cockatiels can be quite a trial of wits, perserverence, and ingenuity. I post a lot over on the cockatiel and budgie boards on other sites handing out advice as best I can to people to try and improve situations. One person wonders why their birds won't breed -- the next one wonders why their bird won't stop laying eggs.

If you remove clutches of eggs -- or even the eggs as they are produced -- this tells the bird's brain that they should keep laying more eggs until they have a clutch to sit on and raise babies. In the wild, cockatiels respond to a number of stimuli to breed & lay. Length of daylight is one, increased humidity (rainy season) is another, and abundance of food is yet a third. When it is a mild and bountiful season, birds from arid country like cockatiels will produce as many clutches of babies as they possibly can to make up for the losses of a harsh climate. So the reward for prolific breeders is genetic survival in the long run through offspring, even if it kills the parent -- genetically, they have survived.

As Joy mentioned, cockatiels are prolific breeders. A 'normal' clutch in the wild is between 3-5 eggs. Keeping them domestically has encouraged larger and larger clutches, as the breeders want as many saleable babies as possible from each round of breeding. I found that a nest of 6 babies was plenty of work for a pair. And I had one hen who would lay clutches of eggs as high as 13 at a time.

It is also well documented of hen cockatiels literally laying themselves to death by producing too many eggs. Some of them have to be euthanized too when their bones become so fragile from calcium loss that they break bones just hopping from perch to perch.

Some people actually have had their hens spayed as a last ditch attempt to stop off the egg machine. Unfortunately, it's a very risky procedure, not to be undertaken lightly as the mortality rate is high for such a procedure. Even avian specialists really don't want to undertake it, and less so on small birds.

I am going to go and hit the books and see what there is about the problem of the Amazon with the foot problems. I know that there are also some vitamin deficiencies that can cause this, in addition to possible things like toxicity and tumors, so I'll see if the texts have any suggestions of avenues to pursue.

-- Anonymous, January 26, 2002

I was just kidding 'bout the spaying thing!! Can they really do that?? I'm sure my mil wont even consider it. So far the bird seems to be coming around. We're keeping our fingers crossed :-)! Thanks!

-- Anonymous, January 26, 2002

As Julie said, it's a very risky proposition to "spay" a bird. Not least because anesthesia is quite tricky with birds. Sometimes, you have no choice about anesthesia, but for an "elective" procedure such as a "spay", most people don't want to risk it. Believe me, if it was as safe as getting a dog or cat spayed, several of my girl 'tiels would have been spayed! :-(

-- Anonymous, January 28, 2002