I have begun printing my "keeper" photos on Ilford polycontrast FB and I must admit that the RC prints look much better. The FB paper has a greenish look to it so I decided to selenium tone to cure this problem. After all the trials and so forth I am still not impressed. The green is gone but the prints are just not impressive. The same negatives on the RC papers look wonderful (you would think Minor White was in the darkroom with me) Would I be better off using a graded paper rather than a VC paper? For all the effort put into producing a quality FB print, there has to be something more worthy. Cheers! Ken

-- Ken Bruno (salmon70@hotmail.com), January 23, 2002

Answers

You might just try different VC fiber based papers. Agfa multi- contrast classic FB is a particilarly nice paper, at least for me, and is also cheap where I buy it. It has a beautiful surface, and the image tone is on the warm side of neutral, but still pretty neutral. No green cast for me in it.

You should also consider the Oriental FB VC and Forte.

I haven't done anything with Ilford FB VC, but have with Iford RC VC, and like it a lot.

-- Charlie Strack (charlie_strack@sti.com), January 23, 2002.

It may be just a matter of personal taste. I have yet to meet the RC print that I thought surpassed one on a high quality fiber paper. (My taste.) I agree with Charlie that you might try a different paper or a different surface. You do not mention what surface you are currently using. My personal choice is Forte VC glossy and for some prints the semi-matt surface. I selenium tone all prints for appearance and for permanence. There should be no significant difference in the appearance of your print using graded vs. VC paper.

-- Arden Howell (Serenisea@aol.com), January 23, 2002.

I have often found the same thing. I tried just about every VC contrast paper till I found one I really like. Forte Elegance Neutral tone VC does it for me. It has a tonal balance that fits my eye and my negatives perfectly. Untoned it has a very slight green tinge, but with 30 seconds of selenium 1:15 the green disappears; anything longer continues to build warmth, until it ultimately becomes deeply brown-toned--more so even than their warmtone papers, and without the red I find objectionable with every warmtone paper I've tried. So not only does it have great tones, it is the most versatile paper for toning I've ever seen: cool neutral to Hershey's dark chocolate.

I also have good things to say about Kodak Polymax Art. It exhibits a very neutral gray scale, which changes very little in selenium. If you're looking for neutral tonality throught the full scale, this is a great paper.

Luminos Flexicon VC is a brilliant paper, with sparkling whites and deep blacks; it's also very neutral, with a beautiful smooth surface. I don't find the midrange separation quite as good as Polymax Art; midrange values often seemed pushed to the toe, printing darker than I expect. That's not always bad, but it doesn't have the extended straight H&D slope of Polymax. It tones effectively in selenium, but can quickly go red without careful attention.

Lastly, I also like Agfa Multicontrast FB. Untoned it's slightly warm as previously noted. It tones unevenly in selenium, however. Light selenium toning adds a nice depth to the print. But go any farther and the darker areas become reddish before the light areas show much change. Were it not for this property, I would like it more. Forte Elegance Neutral tone evenly throughout the tonal scale.

Incidentally, if you like RC papers and you haven't tried Agfa Multicontrast Classic RC, that is one I strongly recommend. It is easily the best RC paper I've come across. It even tones in selenium, something most RC papers will not.

-- Ted Kaufman (writercrmp@aol.com), January 23, 2002.

Ted, have you used Oriental VC FB..? I found my graded paper has the same toning characteristics you mention with Forte...the longer I leave it on the selenium toner...teh warmer the tone.

-- Jorge Gasteazoro (jorgegm58@prodigy.net.mx), January 23, 2002.

Ken, you might want to first try changing your developer instead of going on a "great paper hunt". Maybe a colder developer such as Edwal's Ultra Black or Kodak's Ektaflo Type II.

-- James Megargee (jmegargee@nyc.rr.com), January 23, 2002.

Jorge, I tried Oriental FB VC when Oriental papers were first reintroduced. I found it lacked brilliance without the tonal richness I was expecting. I might have gotten a bad sample, however, since you and too many others who's opinion I value have spoken highly of it. I guess it's worth another look. What color does it tend toward with extended toning? One of the things I like about toning Forte Neutral is how it doesn't become red; it just gets deeper and deeper brown.

-- Ted Kaufman (writercrmp@aol.com), January 24, 2002.

Ken, I am really puzzled by your findings. I have used your 'system' for years. Right now I am using Ilford MG IV RC and FB, and develop in Sprint 'Print Developer.' I do feel that, once under glass telling the difference between one of my RC & FB prints is almost impossible. However, holding them in my hand - its a bit different and the FB prints always do look a little 'richer.' I use satin RC and mat FB.

I do agree with James Megar, that going on a great 'paper hunt' might not be the best way to solve your problem.

chris

-- Christian Harkness (chris.harkness@eudoramail.com), January 24, 2002.

I also use both FB and RC versions of Ilford MG papers, and don't at all have this image color problem. Could it be due to your choice of paper developer? I use Ethol LPD and get neutral to cold blacks with both papers. You can change the dilution of LPD to influence image color, but I haven't found any dilution that produces greenish tones. Selenium toning after LPD development gives the deep purplish tones you expect.

-- Tim Nelson (timothy.nelson@yale.edu), January 24, 2002.

Ilford Multigrade is my cold tone paper, both in fiber and RC (I use fiber primarily because of the higher quality of the image -- I have only found one image I have printed that looks better with RC). My experience is the opposite of yours. With RC, I get a greenish tint that I can especially notice on portraits that is eliminated with selenium. The change using selenium on Ilford fiber neutral tone is not that great.

I am not a paper snob, but I think if you experiment a little more, you will appreciate the quality of fiber. It is a real hassle to use fiber relative to RC, so I wouldn't use it if I didn't think it produced a final product greatly superior to RC. Perhaps the difference is one that takes a while to appreciate, but people who take the extra pain to print on fiber know what I am talking about.

If RC works for you, than that is great, and you are able to print with more convenience. So I hesitate to tell you to experiment more with fiber, as you may begin to see the difference and not want to go back. If you do want to experiment more with fiber, try Forte Elegance (neutral tone) and tone it with a strong solution of selenium. I think you will like the result.

-- Jim Rock (jameswrock@aol.com), January 24, 2002.

I'll second the suggestion to look at other developers. I use Ethol LPD at 1:1 on multigrade VI, glossy, followed by a 2-3 minute selenium toning at 4:1 dilution. Blacks are great. I've seen the greenish tone when using other developers such as Dektol and Multigrade Universal.

-- Gene Crumpler (hassieguy@att.net), January 24, 2002.

What developer are you using, and have you tried adding benzatriazole to it?

-- Charlie Strack (charlie_strack@sti.com), January 25, 2002.

Speaking of greenish tones, don't forget to think about the light you are viewing the print in (and whether or not it has dried down yet). Many flourescent tubes reflect quite green off, e.g. Ilford FB multigrade whereas the same print in tungsten or incandescent light will show no green at all. I actually prefer to selenium tone the multigrade in flourescent light so that I can watch until the green disappears. Light selenium toning seems similar to a flourescent-D filter.

-- Eric Pederson (epederso@darkwing.uoregon.edu), January 26, 2002.