I am a senior in college and am leaving for the Peace Corps this summer. Now I need a good camera. I have been looking at Leicas for years, but they are out of most student budgets. I have a slight problem with wanting the best. I like to buy things once and use them forever (quality, not quantity) Of course, I am preaching to the choir. In any case, the M's have me sold on thier quality and inconspicuousness. I don't know what my budget will allow yet. Here are some questions: 1. Will the M7(?) lower the price of M6TTL and M6? 2. What the heck is the CL and why is Minolta involved and can this camera produce Leica quality images for as long as other Leica cameras? They seem to be less expensive. 3. If I can only afford one lens, should I get 28, 35, or 50. I would love to have a 28 and 50, but maybe 35 if only one. I was thinking 50 for people, but that limits landscapes quite a bit. 4. How do you feel about buying used. Are the online camera shops that I see carying lots of Leica honest? Thanks for any advice. I know that you may be thinking, "what does a kid need with a Leica, and why go Leica if you can only afford one lens for a couple of years." I have to start somewhere. I have won a couple of small photo contests with a P&S canon that is 35, so I could always bring that to the peace corps as well. -Cedar

-- Cedar Grice (cgrice@gladstone.uoregon.edu), January 18, 2002

Answers

Buy an M4-P in good condition ($900 for a nice one), get Leica 35mm (about $700 used) and Voigtländer 75mm lenses for it ($325 new), and a good inexpensive light meter (say $150-200). That is a kit which will be tough and take pictures for decades while providing super quality results.

-- Godfrey (ramarren@bayarea.net), January 18, 2002.

If you are on a tight budget, buying used is the only way to fly. I've had good personal experience with both Don Chatterton on the West Coast, and with KEH. The archives for this forum point to additional reputable dealers of used Leica gear, as well.

Although I have the M6 TTL, and love it, a good M4 or M6 classic, used, appear to be good choices, as well. Combined with a reasonably good handheld meter, either camera would do well for you.

As a "standard" lens, my suggestion would also be the 35mm lens. The 50mm is better for individual people, but I suspect you'll be shooting more groups than individuals in that environment. The 50mm would be, in my opinion, a good second lens, if the budget allows. Or, you might opt for a 90mm lens as the second lens - even better for portraits of individuals, but less convenient than the 50mm.

-- Ralph Barker (rbarker@pacbell.net), January 18, 2002.

Cedar, you had a question about the CL which I don't believe anyone answered. It's a smaller Leica which uses as its normal lens a 40mm Summicron. This is of course an f/2. The lenses can be interchanged. A 90mm f/4 was also made for this model. The finder has frames for 40, 50, and 90mm lenses, and there is a built-in meter. That's where the trouble starts. Every time I pick up a CL to examine, the meter doesn't work. The CL hasn't been made in years, and many of them have developed meter problems. These problems are repairable, but it must be done well, not just a local quick fix.

Apart from these problems, I rather like the CL. It's almost exactly the size of the Minilux zoom, and handles very well. When I find one with a working meter at the right price, I'll probably buy it. But it lacks the versatility of the M cameras, and probably is not as trouble-free.

I agree the 35 is the most versatile of the focal lengths you mentioned.

-- Bob Fleischman (RFXMAIL@prodigy.net), January 18, 2002.

One of the problems with reviewing used leicas, either mail-order or eBay, is understanding if a camera is more valueable as a "user" or "collector". As recent threads on this forum have indicated, the best values for a used Leica that will be taking alot of photos are an M3 for under $900 (US) or an M6 Classic for over $900. I found that even an M4 in good shape costs as much as an M6 because of the collector value, even though you don't get a built-in meter or 28mm framelines. There are quite a few M3s out there that are more affordable and work well with 50 and (some say) 35 mm lenses. The collector value of CLs and Minolta CLEs is rising, too. You can get a good "shooter" M3 and hand-held meter for slightly more than a CL and not have to worry about it's Jurrasic meter. I hope that you find a camera dealer that can give you advise as good as some of the comments that you've already recieved here. Best of luck with the Peace Corp.

-- Pat Dunsworth (pdunsworth@aryarch.com), January 18, 2002.

Godfrey's advice is good, but as another option, rather than an M4-P + meter, how about an M6 classic for about the same $$$? If the meter fails in the M6, you've got about the same thing as an M4-P. I like 50mm (and used Summicron 50s are cheap), but if you're more comfortable with 35mm, just get that to start with, and acquire additional focal lengths if and when you feel the need. If you want to start with something less expensive than the 35mm Summicron, the 35mm/2.8 Summaron ain't no slouch, but for convenience, don't get the M3 version.

-- Richard Saylor (rlsaylor@ix.netcom.com), January 19, 2002.

Used classic M6 (non-TTL) and 35mm Summicron (4th version pre-ASPH, serial number 3,000,000 and above). You'll probably end up with these eventually anyway, though it might push your budget a little now.

I'd recommend the M6 TTL but I don't expect the prices will fall very much very soon. If you find a bargain grab it. Check eBay recently closed auctions for price & condition perspective.

Good luck, Cedar.

-- Ken Shipman (kennyshipman@aol.com), January 19, 2002.

Whatever you people are drinking, I'd like a case of it. The guy is graduating from college, going into the Peace Corp, and your supporting the idea that he run out and purchase an M6?

Go buy a Bessa R and a 35mm f2.5 lens for around $600 (new) and shoot a lot of film. When you get back from your Peace Corp stint, you will have a lot of photographs and won't be still paying on your VISA card for a Leica.

Quality is one consideration; just good sense is another.

-- RP Johnson (rpjohnson2@mindspring.com), January 19, 2002.

How about a Konica Hexar AF... if you end up going for one focal length (and 35 or 50 are excellent choices), the Hexar may be the way to go... plus it is "reasonably" priced, especially compared to leica.

-- Matthew Geddert (geddert@yahoo.com), January 19, 2002.

Need to buy something that will last? I suggest you buy a Nikon FM2n with a new 50mmm f1.8 and perhaps a used 20 or 24mm if your budget permits. Lots of pros have used this rugged mechanical SLR in tandem with Leica M6s, which are about the same size -I remember a description of Mary Ellen Marks showing up on a shoot with six of each! When you are ready to add a Leica, the FM2n will still be useful for telephoto and macro work..........

-- david kelly (dmkedit@aol.com), January 19, 2002.

Cedar, if you prefer to buy something of quality and last for a considerable number of years without trading it in for another camera, I'd still support the purchase of a Leica instead of a Bessa R. Instead of an M6 however, I'd push for a user M2 or M3 with a 50mm lens - if you look around you can get one for less than half the price of an M6 + lens. Case in point, I bought my Leica M2 while in college a nearly 2 years back, used it hard during a summer photojournalism internship, and it became my main camera during a yearlong documentary photography project. I continue to use it professionally as a working photojournalist, using it together with Nikon F5's and a D1(well, at least I did until I lost my job from a bleak post-september 11th economy ).

good luck!

http://homepage.mac.com/badris

-- Badris (badris@mac.com), January 19, 2002.

Hello Cedar,

let me say I´am envious regarding your peacecorps plans. Have a good time there and make sure whatever cameragear you take along is well insured.

Just take a small kit with you! A LEICA/ MINOLTA CL or CLE would be really handy. But it limits the choice of lenses you can choose from. For wildlife - should yoú go to Africa - this would be a bit limiting. For this kind of subject consider a slr with a medium/ long telelens. Advise is quite difficult if you do not know what kind of photography is wanted.

Before you buy, try a camera out for a week or two. The p/s you have now, behaves different from a manual r/f or a slr. You might be disappointed by the results of manual gear being not so used to operate it.

Best wishes

-- K. G. Wolf (k.g.wolf@web.de), January 19, 2002.

Thank You, What a great community! I am overwhelmed by the responses to my questions. I have spent the last couple of months reading almost everything on the web, but your direct advice is priceless. I am very particular, and will consider by final purchase for at least a couple more months. I already have about 25 G's of student loans, and the possibility of another 25 or so from grad school after the corps makes a mew M6TTL and a couple of lenses seem small. Well, smaller. (Maybe there should be a link to a financial advice forum, or a "talk me out of spending $5000 forum".) Thanks again.

-Cedar

-- Cedar Grice (cgrice@gladstone.uoregon.edu), January 19, 2002.

Cedar,

1. This theme was discussed in threads before; I don't think so. Even if so, the prices will remain in very high areas.
2. The CL is a camera built by Leitz and Minolta in the 70s, a real success and a nice, compact and usable camera with a metering system that is prone to failures. Nonetheless it features (almost complete) compatibility with the other Leica M cameras. 3. This is a personal choice where noone can really help you: Buy what you are comfotable with. Voigtlaender lenses are a bargain, otherwise if you don't need the speed slower Leica lenses are much cheaper than faster which might give you 2 slower lenses for the price of a faster one. 4. No problem, I did this with all my gear. KEH seems to be a good choice as well as Don Chatterton; there are lots of places. EBay might have som bargains, and due to the exchange rate cameras from Europe might be an alternative. There are lots of shops here wich offer used stuff, try and do a google search - though you should limit yourself to a specific product - too many hits otherwise.

To me buying used is the way to go. There are lots of bargains: In contrast to Godfrey in my opinion a M2 would be a better choice: Mine cost me $400 plus $150 for a CLA which got me a real nice camera (in user condition, but mechanically superb). These prices are not unreal, try eBay for a user condition camera or visit a photo flea market. Don't be bothered by bad look of a camera, but be aware of a harsh feel - a working Leica should feel smooth.
That plus a used Summaron 2.8/35 or 3.5/35 (about $200), an analog incident light meter (about $50) and a used 90/4 (C-)Elmar (about $100-$150) make up a nice set which will cost you well below $1000.
Otherwise you may get a CL + a 40/2 and the corresponding Elmar-C for about the same, the choice depends on you.

I wouldn't buy the Bessa-R - having used the Bessa for a while the body is in no way comparable to a Leica, though I have to admit that the built in meter is very nice. If it has to be a new camera, a Nikon FM2n or FM3a would be the camera of choice (since Leice / Contax may be too expensive).

HTH - Kai

-- Kai Blanke (kai.blanke@iname.com), January 19, 2002.

My son was in the Peace Corps in Pakistan and Nepal and spent time as a relief worker in Afganistan (pre-Taliban) and Bosnia. He carried a Nikon FM2 and a 50mm lens through all his travels, as did I when I visted him. His camera and mine still work perfectly after many abuses. I love the Leica but the FM2 with one or two Nikon lenses will take great pictures under adverse conditions.

-- Tom (therbert@miami.edu), January 19, 2002.

My son was in the Peace Corps in Pakistan and Nepal and spent time as a relief worker in Afganistan (pre-Taliban) and Bosnia. He carried a Nikon FM2 and a 50mm lens through all his travels, as did I when I visted him. His camera and mine still work perfectly after many abuses. I love the Leica but the FM2 with one or two Nikon lenses will take great pictures under adverse conditions.

And, the FM2 is quite a bit lighter than an M Leica, without being too plastic!

-- Tom (therbert@miami.edu), January 19, 2002.

Cedar: You have received alot of advice from many well intentioned experts but you must make the decision based on two points: 1. How much can I realistically spend? 2. What equipment can I purchase that will serve as the building blocks for a future (post graduate school) Leica collection? With this in mind, I will add my two cents: I would suggest a used Leica M6TTL and a 35mmF2 summicron. Thewse are the cornerstones of everyone's "stable" and should not break the bank. they are indestructible. I would also avoid e-bay and other internet sites as these are becomming the fraudster's paradise. At best you will get a good deal but more often garbage that may require not only a CLA but costly repairs as well. Therefore, go to a reputable Leica dealer.I use Ken Hansen in my hometown of New York. He is scrupulously honest and you will be well served. Finally, buy the camera sooner than later, shoot alot of film and learn your camera inside and out. You do not want any surprises in Africa!! Good luck! (8>))--

-- Albert Knapp MD (albertknappmd@mac.com), January 19, 2002.

Hello Cedar.You will no doubt get many personal opinions on this thread but I can assure you the purchase of a serviced,smooth operating Leica M,should satisfy your needs.If your focal length steers towards the semi wide,best value may be an M2 with 35mm Summicron or Summaron,with the aid of a compact meter.This "humble" looking combination, with a little practice,will become your friend.I've always found it amusing standing next to someone sporting the latest big reflex camera and zoom who cannot believe your camera was made in 1966... Little do they know the pleasure and pictures your M will give.Don't think you are starting too early with Leica.. My Dad's M3 started me on the Leica journey at the tender old age of 16...That was 32 years ago. Regards.

-- Sheridan Zantis (albada60@hotmail.com), January 19, 2002.

Cedar:

MORE ON LEICA CL

-- Bob Fleischman (RFXMAIL@prodigy.net), January 19, 2002.

Hi, Just some thoughts on your choices. I was in a similar position as you- after college I lived and worked abroad, then went back to grad school for a few years, and only now have been working a 'real' job and feel that Leica equipment are within reach. It is true that you seem to be embarking on what seems like a once (or twice, 3x...?) in a lifetime journey, and understandible that you'd want to record it with something like Leica.

If I were to prioritize things, I would say getting photos was more important than getting photos done with Leica glass. Whatever you decide, just make sure you have a back up plan in case something happens to your equipment, and that you know your equipment well. I'll always remember the story of my friend traveling around the world only to have her N2000 crap out on her as she entered Nepal. Later in Hong Kong she was able to get it fixed. If you're somewhere far from Leica dealers/repairfolk, what will you do if for some reason your Leica stops working? Do you have a backup camera and lens you can have sent to you?

My first real camera was a Pentax K1000 with a 50mm/1.7 lens. On the one hand, it was no Leica, but on the other, it certainly held its own, it was and still is super rugged and dependable, and, in the scheme of things, it wasn't irreplaceably expensive. I had owned and much used it for a couple years before going abroad, so I knew its idiosyncrasies and felt comfortable with it- how to interpret its meter, how to make sure the film is properly loaded, etc. After 6 months, I'm still learning on the M6.

In the end, if you have albums or slide trays of images made by an FM2 and Nikkor 50mm, or an M6TTL and 50 cron, will you notice the difference very much- given where you're going and what you'll be doing? In the end, the photos you have of your trip are nothing more or nothing less- they just are what you've got- whether there were 8x10 view camera images or those from a Holga.

In my case, I can' t imagine having thought of affording Leica before I started paying 'real' taxes. And sure, my photos of mundane subjects, around here where I live and and have walked about countless times, often are technically more amazing than past photos. But the ones of my trips and other special times pre-Leica are irreplaceable.

That said, and not to make things more complicated, but you might think of adding an old Rolleiflex TLR- say for special landscapes. :-) I bought a beater with a Xenar for $80 and images are superb.

Also, good luck on those loans! I know people in their mid-30s working big Corporate Jobs still paying them off.

-- Tse-Sung (tsesung@yahoo.com), January 19, 2002.

Cedar:

You have a lot of good advice, that only you can decide on. The Leica/Minolta CL is smaller than the M's, but has a shorter baseline for the rangefinder. This converts to less accuracy on the rangefinder, more noticable under low light with longer lenses (90 f:2.0, 50 f:1.4). I started with M's 30 years ago and I am still using the same ones, with more added. I would look at what you have been using in the past, point and shoot, SLR and find what type of pictures you enjoy most. This should guide you in the selection of a lens. The 35's are all good lenses and used ones may be prone to fungus. I have 2 older lenses with fungus that are sharp, but flat on contrast. They worked well for years, until .... Use your concience and decide based on what you feel will work for you, tempered with the input of people you know and trust. ONE person that you know and trust MUST weigh more than some-one you only read about (I-net). I have M3's and an M6. I enjoy the M6 due to not having to carry a handheld or other meter. Personally, I would spend the additional $'s and get something with a working meter, probably used or gray from a reputeable source. Look for a user from (ex or 8+) from a good source. I would not look at appearance if you are new to this. My M3's look rough but perform great. 2 CLA's each in 30 years.

Good luck on your decision and enjoy the Peace Corp.

:)

-- Mark A. Johnson (logical1@catholic.org), January 19, 2002.

I think you ought to get an old manual focus slr like a Minolta srt101 or a Nikon FM, or OM1, or Pentax with a 50mm lens. Low expenditure of capital, decent quality of pictures and most of all if it is lost, ripped off or trashed, minimal loss. You will come back with maximum memorable pictures and minimum time spent worrying about equipment. After travelling with the peace corps and living possibly rough when you get back and get a job save for all the Leica equipment you desire for your future use and travels. Good luck.

-- Don (wgpinc@yahoo.com), January 19, 2002.