Anyone want to comment about Enron? Think it's going to be as hot as Watergate? Any thoughts about Arthur Anderson and their cookbook? Excuse me, I meant cooking of the books?

I have been following this with interest...1) b/c in and of itself, the story is fascinating (doncha love greed?) and 2) b/c it seems to indicate (that and the George and the Pretzel story) that we (as Americans) have started being able to laugh at ourselves again. (Since last September, we have been pretty somber, seems to me.)

Anyway, I'd be interested in opinion, gossip, innuendo, boldface lies, etc., if related to Enron. Care to share? Hmmm????

-- Anonymous, January 17, 2002

Answers

ENRON- Every Retiree Owns Nothing

-- Anonymous, January 17, 2002

Forgot the "N". ENRON- Every New Retiree Owns Nothing. Now if I could only shred the first answer, where is Anderson when you need them?

-- Anonymous, January 18, 2002

Yeah ENRON is in deep doo doo. Lets see what is known so far:

1. Not only did ENRON prevent their own employees from selling their own stock, the executives of the company liquidated theirs at record profits.

2. The accounting department took great pains to conceal the severity of the problems, thus guarenteeing ENRON stockholders from learning the severity of the problem earlier.

3. Employees which were yet to be hired, were told to quit their present jobs, and to move to the locations specified, all at company expense. Now these people have quit their jobs, moved to the promised job site (have they already sold / lost their home at their earlier residence?) only to find that they have no job, and no one will pay them moving expenses.

4. That the employees, some of them who have given years of service to ENRON, find themselves as pensioners and whose retirement is now virtually worthless.

What is next, I'm thinking, is someone is going to try and pull the hair off that chairman, only to find a rubber mask will slip off and we will find Osama Bin Laden blinking in the camera spotlight.

-- Anonymous, January 18, 2002

I heard that Enron was one of the major contributors to George Bush's political campaign. So...does that mean that since Enron helped Bush get into office, Bush will get Enron out of that doo doo??!!

-- Anonymous, January 18, 2002

Not to diminish the horror of the stockholders being ripped off, but I must admit to a bit a giggle when I heard Arthur Anderson was in trouble. My partner has worked with their contractors many times, and it has always been a hideous experience. They come in all hoity-toity with their five hundred dollar suits, take over the place, treating independent contractors and employees like so much scat. Everybody hated em, except for some unfathomable reason, the boards of directors who keep hiring them. Anderson people often left a department in much worse shape than when they arrived,and got paid $350 an hour for the privelege! OH well......somethin's comin home to roost?

-- Anonymous, January 18, 2002

Maybe Enron should have invested in Energizer batteries. At least that woman v.p. involved in the mess had guts enough to buck the good ole boy network.

-- Anonymous, January 18, 2002

Whitewater was much ado about nothing. After years of investigation and zillions of dollars it turned into virtually nothing. It amounted to little more than a republican-made artificial scandal to keep Clinton off balance and preoccupied.

On the other hand ENRON has the makings of a really big deal for alot of reasons, some of them mentioned above. Its undeniable that ALOT of folks have been screwed BIG TIME and alot of other folks have gotten rich, BIG TIME.

Phil Grahams wife worked for Enron. He's the retiring Senator from Texas.

Ken Liegh is old time buddies with the Bush family and from what I hear was a major player in the utility deregulation legislation. Also he was one of Cheneys "consultants" in the formation of Bushes energy "program".

Enron was the recipient of a big time sweetheart deal after desert storm in rebuilding some power plant in Kuwait. Kuwait was practically forced by the US to pay twice as much for the same eqpt as they would have if they'd done business by the next HIGHEST bidder.

I really wonder what was in the papers that got shredded. Since its so high-profile alot of heads should roll but so should they have rolled during the S&L scandal but they didn't. And how about the Iran- Contra scandal and the oil implications? And desert storm and the oil implications?

Common denominator? The Bush family!

It seems to me like the the upper echelon republican crowd is alot more skilled at fanning the flames of a scandal (whitewater and monica) than the dems are but maybe thats because the dems are in bed with them too. Ya think?

-- Anonymous, January 18, 2002

John,

I agree and disagree with you and the others, but thats the wonderful attribute of dscussion groups. IMPIO (in my politically incorrect opinion) democratically minded folks will always "blame a name" . Today its the Bushes, 50 years ago it would have been the Getty's, Rockefellers or heaven forbid the Kennedys. The reason why , they have the money and the majority of dems don't. The populace conveniently forgets that this country is not a democracy and in all likelihood, never will be. We were formed by very intelligent monied landowners/statesmen 226 years ago as a republic, chosen and influenced by democratic principle with contingency to transfer control to the monied sector in times of conflict as they are generally less emotionally motivated.

The last election was an excellent example of these contingencies in action. News coverage showed the monied sector proceeding mechanically toward Jan 20th and the continuation of our form of government with very little emotion, while the emotional sectors became vocal and chaotic. Yes, we have "democracy", however only to the extent of deciding what monied sector political machine is to be in control. Even "democratic" political machinery fails to reflect all the wishes of the democratic sector. We will see actions taken, if for no other reason than to give the media and society sectors something to rant about as the machine continues to plow ahead.

Many would love to see a true democracy in this country, but in all likelihood, we never will. Our volitile social structure could not pass through the anarchy and chaos of the collapse of the current democratically influenced republic form of government neccesary to pass to a true democracy form of government (of which to date , there have been no known long term successes). All we can do is dive clear of the four horsemen as they thunder past and take solice in the fact that even with our troubles, our society sectors have survived 226 years of chaos with only one quelled revolution (most governments experience uprisings every 30 to 50 years on average).

Hope no one takes offense at my view and opinion (I guess thats why I prefer avoiding politics and sticking to agronomy :>) BTW, I hold no party affiliations and I do vote.

-- Anonymous, January 19, 2002

Jay: I understand the caveats you bring up and don't specifically disagree with anything you say however it seems to me that even tho we have a "republic" and not a true democracy we shouldn't let that stand in the way of demanding full disclosure from our candidates and some genuine integrity. The role that big money currently plays in our national political scene is truly scary and distorts the genuine will of the "man on the street".

That the Bush family name shows up almost routinely in these things may be a matter of mere coincidence but it seems me they have a talent for high level corruption.

Now the question comes to mind: Is it corruption if its legal? Just because something is legal does it make it "right"?

-- Anonymous, January 19, 2002

Seems to me that Texas was also the place where the big scandal that used to be in the history books and probably is small potatoes now occured. "Teapot Dome" ring a bell with anyone??? If I remember right that one was also about greed, energy and politics. I am such a complete cynic these days that I don't trust any of them... politicians. If they have the savey to get elected, they more than likely are already corrupted or soon will be when they get to power. Too bad the greedy people usually have the power, but doesn't it make sense?? If you are not greedy and power hungry, why ever would you go through all the garbage you have to go through to be in public office??

IMHO if Enron isn't as hot, if not hotter, than Watergate it will only be because so many of the big power people are involved that there would be nothing whatsoever we could do about it anyway. It's kind of like back in the days of OPEN monarchy. As long as the people in power let enough trickle down that people are not starving, but for the most part are benefiting as we all do in this country by the totally corrupt practices of our power brokers, anarchy or revolution looks like a poor choice.

Some call it "Manifest Destiny".......me I have no idea what to call it. I just try as hard as I can to recognize greed and corruption in myself and squash it when I see it, and be content with what I can do with my own little piece of earth for as long as I can.

-- Anonymous, January 19, 2002

Jay, I took it upon myself to add paragraphs to your post. Presumptuous of me, I know, but I simply cannot read and make sense of long, unbroken paragraphs. Sorry.

I'm with you, John -- these matters should be exposed and examined, and there should be consequences. IMNSHO, 'legal' does not always coincide with right. Others have agreed over the years, hence we have laws AGAINST behaviors that were, at some previous point, perfectly LEGAL.

The thing that puzzles me -- did they really think none of this would ever come out? Or is it that they thought there wouldn't be consequences. I hope they will discover they were wrong! The whole thing is enough to make you puke!

-- Anonymous, January 19, 2002

No problem about the post structure, after all , you are one of the folks doing housekeepng duties here. I'll try to remember next time and keep better structure. When you speak of "right", those of us with moral values understand , businessmen on the other hand lack emotion and quite often values, and just don't care. They very well may have known it would eventually surface, but didn't care as it wouldn't affect the bottom line of their profit share.

-- Anonymous, January 19, 2002

What diane said...

I was going to say that I think the system is broken but maybe that's just too darn simplistic. The longer I live the less I'm inclined to think that there are ANY "good" guys out there to elect. The whole process appears to corrupt and it seems like the only people out there who want to run are power-hungry tyrants that want to control everyone's lives down to the most miniscule detail. There are exceptions (Ron Paul comes to mind), but they're such a small minority it's downright laughable - if not pathetic.

I do think the system is long overdue for a revolution. But I fear that such a thing may not solve our problem(s) - it may only make matters much, much worse...

I think a lot of us on these forums (BTS, Countryside, Freedom, etc.) are trying to find ways to disconnect ourselves (to secede) from society at large in hopes of weathering the coming upheavals. I hope it's enough...

-- Anonymous, January 19, 2002

But I don't WANT to secede; I don't want to just take up space. I want to DO something, to leave something behind that feels like I helped in some way!

-- Anonymous, January 19, 2002

But I don't WANT to secede; I don't want to just take up space. I want to DO something, to leave something behind that feels like I helped in some way!

I fail to see how the two are mutually exclusive, EM.

Are you saying the *only* way we can effect (affect?) change is to "work within the system"?

-- Anonymous, January 19, 2002

I want to DO something, to leave something behind that feels like I helped in some way!

One of the biggest problems IMO with the *political* process is that one person's idea of "helping" is another person's idea of "intrusion". Therein lies the rub...

-- Anonymous, January 19, 2002

EM, I do not think that seceding and just taking up space is what anyone has been talking about. Keeping my own porch clean is the most powerful thing that I can do in any situation.

-- Anonymous, January 19, 2002

How exactly does keeping my own porch clean change anything in the political realm?

Well, Jimbo, you already know how I feel about gov't intrusion; I think we're on the same page there. I was just responding my won personal disagreement to what I felt was some folks' opinion that since that's just the way the world works, its best to just accept it and ignore all the damage it does. Course this is NOT about anybody being right or wrong, its just my own frustration that so many people feel that way, and that is why things continue to go down the craphole. Ya know?

Peace,

-- Anonymous, January 19, 2002

How exactly does keeping my own porch clean change anything in the political realm?

I guess it depends on what you mean by "change". "Keeping my own porch clean" means - at least for me - that I'm devoting my energies on improving myself and NOT on trying to improve/change others through the political process. That's my opinion, at least. I don't presume to speak for diane, though.

Well, Jimbo, you already know how I feel about gov't intrusion; I think we're on the same page there. I was just responding my won personal disagreement to what I felt was some folks' opinion that since that's just the way the world works, its best to just accept it and ignore all the damage it does. Course this is NOT about anybody being right or wrong, its just my own frustration that so many people feel that way, and that is why things continue to go down the craphole. Ya know?

I hear ya, EM. :-)

For a lot of people it probably IS about apathy and accepting the status quo. But for more and more of us it's about coming to the conclusion that the "system" is rigged from the outset and that we're wasting an incredible amount of time on trying to change something that's not changeable - not to mention because we all have such *diverse* views on how people should organize themselves socially and politically that changing the system to suit everyone is an excerise in impossibility (and ever-escalating strife, I might add). As I said earlier, one person's idea on "helping" is another person's idea of "intrusion". When it comes to politics that's a recipe for disaster, IMO. So, we focus on things we CAN do that don't rely on changing others - homesteading, homeschooling/unschooling, small- scale energy prduction, alternative currencies (ie. Ithaca HOURS/bucks), etc.

I believe doing those things empowers people MUCH more than throwing a switch in a voting booth (and it's much more direct and immediate to boot). :-)

-- Anonymous, January 19, 2002

(I'm on Ruth's laptop and I don't have the password for the administration section to edit my post above - and I'm too lazy to get up and find it on the computer that *does* have it.)

In my response above, change the words: "- mainly because" to "not to mention".

Joy's note: I went in and changed it!

-- Anonymous, January 19, 2002

Jim,

The only way to achieve goals we desire in the current environment without bringing chaos down on us is as the 60s hippies and even Ralph Nader and the Green Party did. Use their system to finance your opposition. Anti establishment hippies now own some of the largest PC manufacturers and suppliers, Nader invested heavy in Cisco and if I recall fossil fuels to a degree. Why not invest in whatever markets can give you a few thousand in return to finance your own goals and then stand down from the society ? I'm not saying "if you can't beat them, join them", instead "if you can't beat them , use their resources to move farther from them. I used this stategy against my former employer. Management thought I was hard working, reverent in regard to my employment and fearful of job loss, a "true company man" When they laid me off with "no warning" (I knew I was slated for 2 months prior),they discovered I was self reliant and they had no hold over me. I only asked how to withdrawal my retirement savings, which I had built over a 5 year period to better than 6 years salary through active stock trading of stock I purchased and sold with no brokers fees through our company plan, abiding by the established rules all the way.

-- Anonymous, January 19, 2002

Excellent advice, Jay!

Why not invest in whatever markets can give you a few thousand in return to finance your own goals and then stand down from the society?

That's pretty much what we've done with real estate over these past 11 years - it's been a very lucrative investment. In fact, Ruth found out today through the realtor that helped us buy our current home that we could sell right now and double our money (in just the three years that we've lived here!). On the one hand I'm excited because this may be where we can finally have a place in the country with little or no mortgage (IF we can find land to build or a diamond-in- the-rough to renovate). On the other hand I'm appalled at how quickly prices have skyrocketed on country homes - this just can't continue forever - especially with some of the ominous economic signs we've been seeing. I hope the economy doesn't tank before we decide on what route we're gonna go...

-- Anonymous, January 19, 2002

Well, I'm just fascinated with this story. Thanks folks for posting your thoughts. I'm set to muse a bit more, though...

Seems like everyday, I vascilate between thinking, "oh well, what's the use!" to "If life is worth living, it's worth living well (or *ethically*, or some other noble concept)...especially pointed when I am exposed to these biz/political (?) scandals. On the one hand, it seems like no matter what I personally do, nothing will ever change. On the other hand, it seems that if everyone thinks that way, there will NEVER be any changes made. What if only corrupt people chose to act and everyone else is merely complacent...?

I keep reflecting back to Farenheit 451 and to those folks who literally memorized books to keep great ideas/literature alive, despite the banning of books, the prosecution of those who held them, etc. As long as we have the freedoms to speak and read (and explore) what we chose, I have hope. But is the press still the Fifth Estate, even? Lately, in the name of security, it would seem that some of this has been eroding...but perhaps that's another thread, eh? Anyway, no laws say that accounting firms can't shred paperwork. No laws say that the Washington Post has to investigate. No laws mandate a Deep Throat, either! Just individual consciences...

I categorized this thread in the humor category...maybe it should be GALLOWS humor, though. Hmmm.

-- Anonymous, January 19, 2002

Jim, you spoke well for me.....what I was refering to exactly. Thanks :>)

-- Anonymous, January 19, 2002

Sheepish, beautiful post; I can surely relate to everything you said!

Jay, once again you have blown my socks off.........I think you are absolutely right on! Working within the system may be the only thing that really works, if only we could get a critical mass.

Jim, I need to continue to believe that the 'system' CAN still be changed. That we are all a part of it, and as Margaret Mead said, (sorta) it doesnt take a huge percentage of us to do that, only a few souls who truly believe and care, although the more the better. And I personally could not go on living if I thought otherwise.

I also agree with you about the silly notion of changing others. I learned this one way after you did, age-wise, (whippersnapper!), but its a definite truth to me now. So I'm not so interested in changing others as I am convincing others who already have the same vision that nothing is impossible, that our values are not trivial disagreements with the 'establishment', but critical issues to the future we should be contributing to, long after we are gone.

And to Diane: I think I know what you are saying, and if I am understanding you correctly, there is also great wisdom in your words, IMO. We can do nothing UNTIL we have cleaned our own porch,for sure, just as we can really never love anyone until we have learned to love ourselves, unconditionally. That's our first, most important job here in this earth school.

Love you guys,

-- Anonymous, January 19, 2002

EM,

A"critical mass" is possible. The more people that come along to the point of realizing the very society they despise can provide the vehicle they need to facilitate their desired changes and then act upon a plan are part of the critical mass you suggest.

When Japan suffered economic downturn about 10 years back, economists blamed the under 30 crowd for the downturn as they had gravitated away from the traditional Japanese work ethic in favor of the U.S. yuppie investing and lack luster work views. their economy expierence a 35% decline.

The more people that become aware and willing to use the established system to their own means would add to the cancer striking from within, thus increasing "critical mass", however be careful what you wish for. Rememberance of youthful ideals tend to make one long for the utopian fantasy of the young , carefree personality of yesterera, however, the maturity and wisdom of age brings with it an understanding of responsibilities and realities and knowledge that revolutionary changes that could destroy the corrupt political machines, would also destroy fortunes that have to shore our economy in order to thrive in their corruption. Why did so many of the "children of the 60s" turn establishment in the 80s. Did they "sell out" or choose not to be part of something that could destroy the lives of their families, children and grandchildren?

IMO the "changes" will never occur as critical mass, rather they will occur as a long term metamorphisis taking multiple generations and arriving with no fanfare whatsoever.

-- Anonymous, January 20, 2002

Sorry about straying so far off topic regarding your Enron thread, sheepish. I'll try to get it back on track with the following:

Humor found on a mailing list I'm on:

Enron joke of the not-to-far-distant future when the scandal plagues the Bush administration.

Q: What did the Bush II and Clinton administrations have in common?
A: They were both beleaguered by the consequences of an indescreet Lay.

-- Anonymous, January 20, 2002

Jim,

Groan. Okay it was funny!

Everything here doesn't have to be light-hearted *OR* serious. I just know that this story will be in the news for a while....needed a place to post serious or silly stuff.

Thanks for the laugh!

-- Anonymous, January 21, 2002

Sheepish,

Just read a Reuters article on my yahoo homepage that reports the shreddings have occurred as recent as two weeks ago. you may find it interesting.

-- Anonymous, January 22, 2002

Jay, thanks. I listened to some more detail tonight on NPR. What were those guys thinking?! I wonder how many other companies are that shady...sadly, probably many...

-- Anonymous, January 23, 2002

I am wondering why it took so long to get the FBI there........like what is left to shred now????

-- Anonymous, January 23, 2002

Shady companies? Two years ago a court levied the largest fine on record for price fixing ($600 million) against my employer. Last week in another case we were fined $505 million for cooking the books in order to avoid paying royalties to another company. Nobody around here seems to care, the fines are pocket change. They did an employee survey recently and over 90% of the employees said that they were proud to work here. I'm just staying long enough to make enough money to get out. Guess that's my version of using the system to my advantage.

-- Anonymous, January 23, 2002

Since the folks that are doing the investigating (SEC, Justice, etc.) are former players, etc., I'll be surprized if anything comes out of this except hand slapping...should all blow over after mid-term elections are done...right now everyone is playing their political cards...

-- Anonymous, January 23, 2002

Just resurrecting this old thread...

Anyone heard anything more about the story behind the former exec who allegedly shot and killed himself?

Any interest in the GAO suing the Bush Administration regaring the Energy meetings held last spring? Anyone heard anything from Cheney lately?

Any interest in why electricity rates (futures) took a strong downturn as soon as Enron declared bankruptcy?

Anyone know of any forums or places where I can read/participate, should I be boring you all with these queries?

Thanks!

-- Anonymous, January 30, 2002

Hey sheepish, interesting stuff huh?? I listen to PRI and find there is quite a bit of coverage there. The more I hear the more I think that this is really big, really dark and they (here we go with the every growing THEY) seem to have ripped off more than their peon employees.................like the whole west coast to start!!! I will look around at some of the forums, but I think you and I tend to follow the same ones maybe.

-- Anonymous, January 31, 2002