I just received today a seemingly Exc condition Leica M4, serial #1272xxx. The wax seal has been replaced indicating it has been serviced at some time during its 32 year life. I have no idea of when or by whom it was serviced & I have no way of finding out this information. The wax seal has no apparent stamp in it. It just shows its been redone. The shutter speeds seem to be ok, as compared to my other M4 which was serviced by DAG as indicated by the 92 stamped into the wax seal. The viewfinder is nice & clear & everything seems to be functioning properly. Is there some way of knowing whether or not it truely does or does not need service without spending the money for a CLA? Please help.... :-0

-- ron snyder (studio1401@aol.com), January 16, 2002

Answers

The general consensus will probably be to just do it now, with which I agree, and be sure, but you could always wait until something goes wrong. :-)

-- Michael Darnton (mdarnton@hotmail.com), January 16, 2002.

There also appears to have been a sticker with the name Tagaki on the base plate. Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks :-)

-- ron snyder (studio1401@aol.com), January 16, 2002.

Most repair shops can check a few shutter speeds on a "while you wait" basis. If they are within 1/2 stop, and the flash sync works (you can check that in a dim room with the back plate open,) then check the focus with your favorite lens. I like the "quarter on a yardstick" test. If all that is OK, I would just use the camera.

-- Phil Stiles (Stiles@metrocast.net), January 16, 2002.

You have an M4 which was serviced by Don Goldberg right there in your hands to compare this one to, so you pretty much can tell if the shutter or transport sounds/feels significantly different, or if there are maladjustments with the frames or rangefinder. If you don't have access to a shutter tester your next step is to run a roll of slide film through it at each speed right alongside your DAG- serviced M4. Shoot at the clear blue sky or a blank light-colored wall in unchanging light. Fire the cameras 3 times at each speed (there are 12 speeds, 36 shots on a roll, works out perfectly)using the same lens on both cameras, altering the aperture to keep the exposure constant. Have the films processed but not cut or mounted (make sure you've marked the film so you can tell them apart...like, shoot the 37th frame of a sign indicating which body it is). Compare the film and you should know the story. All the frames should theoretically be the same density. In reality, they probably won't be. At the slowest speeds you may see some corner darkening, this is from the lens vignetting at wider apertures, not a shutter problem. At 1/1000 you will probably see an unevenness from side to side. I've never seen an M shutter that wasn't uneven at 1000. But if there are major differences, you'll see them and know that a CLA is in order.

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), January 16, 2002.

I think Jay meant, you may see some corner darkening at the fastest speeds, where the aperture is widest.

-- Bob Fleischman (RFXMAIL@prodigy.net), January 16, 2002.

I meant that, what Bob said.

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), January 16, 2002.

Listen to your Leicas and they will tell you when something is wrong. Run the two cameras through all the speeds side by side. Do they sound the same? If your new M4 sounds like your DAG serviced M4 then relax and do not worry about it. If it does not, then send in for a CLA now. If you are not sure about how the noises compare, take the new M4 to an experienced Leica tech, they can tell by listening if your shutter needs servicing or not. Unless I know for sure that any used camera I purchase was recently CLAed, I just send it in for one.

-- John Collier (jbcollier@powersurfr.com), January 16, 2002.

If it is all working fine then leave it alone! If it ain't broke don't fix it!

-- Giles Poilu (giles@monpoilu.icom43.net), January 17, 2002.

You're lucky there Ron. You can do the vertical rangefinder alignment without the expensive tool. Learn how to do this and save yourself a bundle should this adjustment go out of whack.

That and the babes just love to see a man display his utilitarian knowledge.

Lucky you!!!! I had to chop a cord of firewood every weekend to impress my last girlfriend!

-- John (ouroboros_2001@yahoo.com), January 17, 2002.

Look- there is really one way to do this- and it requires a good shop.

1) Most shops should be able to run through the shutter speeds while you wait, and "good shops" would mean they would have a kyoritsu tester which has a probe placed at the film plane that measures speeds in the center, but on the opening and closing side of the shutter. With three measurements you can tell if the side-to-side variation is ok- if my readings are 1.2, 1.0 and .8 for 1/1000th sec., then yes it runs 1/1000th, but has a half-stop difference from one end of the frame to the next.

2) Flange parallax should be checked with a dial guage- this measures change in lensmount/film rails distance around the lensmount- a dial that jumps and dives has a warped mount(you can't always see it), whereas a rock-steady needle indicates perfect.

3) Meter where applicable, and varies to taste.

Diaphragm accuracy can be off as well, so I think it best that those be separately checked and adjusted. Shutter runs 180th vs. 250th and diapragm is 4 vs 3.5, won't show on film, but is way out.

There usually isn't that much error in diaphragms, though.

Drop the camera off for the shop's and your sake- 24 hours is sufficient. Don't rush a Thourough checkout. Bring cookies, even.

-- Mike DeVoue (karma77@att.net), January 17, 2002.

Forgot about the rangefinder, though. One roll of film and you'll know. Bracket focus(take notes) and double-check if unsure.

-- Mike DeVoue (karma77@att.net), January 17, 2002.

Ron,

If it works fine and the photos are fine then the camera is fine too. These are NOT cars, and do not require maintenance, and regular maintenance will not improve the longevity of your camera.

As you already have a back-up, use your "new" M4 until the shutter separates, which just happened with my M4. I intend to get a full CLA. Not bad for a 32 year old camera. If I/previous owner got a CLA every five years we would have spent $1000 in today's money, and the shutter would still have separated because it's not part of the maintenance. Before y'all flame: the cloth separated from the blade. Although, spring tension is probably part of a CLA, I don't think its range of tension is all that great, and the camera's exposure was fine before the break/tear (cloth threads are visible).

However, if one dollar-cost-averaged in GE over the years with the CLA money, how many new bodies could one buy?

-- Chris Chen (chrischen@msn.com), January 18, 2002.

Camera Fairs will have a table where shutter speeds can be checked for free. I had all my cameras tested, and all, including the M4, were fine.

Camera repair shops aligned my rangefinder in about 90 seconds, for free. I walked in on a whim because I was in the 'hood. And no, it wasn't the Ritz Camera. I'd used their service before.

-- Chris Chen (chrischen@msn.com), January 18, 2002.

From one who is sadder but wiser.

When the M has trouble loading--the film just doesn't spool no matter what you do, and you have to fiddle and fiddle until it does--take it in for an overhaul.

I bought my c. 1985-6 M-6 used on 23 December 1989 at K & S in Palo Alto and used it non-stop without ever a CLA. On 17 December 2001 it frozen up on me. Now in repairs and I'm not looking forward to the bill. It was suffering from the above before it froze.

My new M-6's (Classic / TTL) have not the above problem. My M-4 sort of does and so it sort doesn't get heavy use until I take it in for service.

-- Alex Shishin (shishin@pp.iij4-u.or.jp), January 18, 2002.

Leica Kündendienst at Wetzlar and now Solms recommended a camera be serviced at least every ten years irrespective of use. I have applied that rule for thirty five years, sending the cameras to Germany so they return with the proper seal. I am always surprised with the extras that need doing, particularly the reflex cameras. It is worth the money.

-- Justin Scott (jcdscott@bigpond.net.au), January 19, 2002.

"Is there some way of knowing whether or not it truely does or does not need service without spending the money for a CLA?"

Check the owner's manual - a little yellow light comes on in the viewfinder that says "Service Soon."

8^)

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), January 20, 2002.