Going to Italy, anyone have problems with thieves? Been told that your pocket can be picked before you get out of the airport.

-- Don M (Maldos@home.com), January 15, 2002

Answers

If you look like a tourist, you will get your pocket picked almost anywhere. If you look like an ordinary person, it's a lot less likely. Dress conservatively, don't wear jeans or shorts, wear shoes rather than sneakers, and don't carry a bag that screams. If you hang out where tourists hang out, you may have more problems.

I've heard the same things about Mexico, North Africa, and Spain and never had problems in those places either.

Most thieves would rather steal videocams than a still camera.

I was in Italy last spring, including the pretty wild island of Sicily, and didn't have my gear stolen. I travel with noticeable gear (I use a Mamiya 7 usually) and that didn't provoke much interest.

-- Jeff Spirer (jeff@spirer.com), January 15, 2002.

Look out for Gypsies!

My father went to Florence and kept his belonging in his fanny pack. A bunch of young girls (around 12 to 13 years old) came running up to him. The surrounded him ans were making these happy sounding shrieks, like they were groupies and he was a movie star. They were also patting his area around his waist al the way around his body. He carries an umbrella everywhere! He took his umbrella and strated beating these girls on their heads very HARD with his umbrella. The girls were not expecting that and ran off a short way. They all stopped, still in sight of my father and were looking back, fearless, trying to see what he was doing. My father looked down and saw that his fannie pack had been unzipped...nothing was stolen. The whole event took only three or four seconds and these girls were pros!

I wouls look into a new CRUMPLER bag. These bags were designed for be strong enough for the street theives in Europe. The strapping is sewn into the bag. The strapping is thick and strong enough to keep a thief from coming up to you and cutting you strap then running off with your bag. As well there is an exterior flap that both buckels and velcros; another interior flap with additional velcro. The bags are designed to be worn cross ways across your chest and back. You put the bags on over your right shoulder then over your head. It rest on your neck/shoulder on the opposite side. It can quickly be switched/rotated from your back to your side to a position in front of you. Great bag!

Remember...when traveling in Italy...CARRY A BIG STICK.

Lots of luck and have FUN.

-- Rob Schopke (schopke@attbi.com), January 15, 2002.

Sorry for all the typos.

-- Rob Schopke (schopke@attbi.com), January 15, 2002.

Ditto on the Gypsies. While I feel for their plight, they should not resort to crime.

Though this incident happened in Paris, they are in every major city. A bunch of young boys and girls (they often travel in wolfpacks) surrounded a woman friend and her 9 year old daughter, and patted them down for things near the Eiffel Tower. They are impossible to get rid of, like a bunch of locusts.

Also, another time the same two people got robbed by a couple of young men on those little Euro mopeds, the one in the back snatched the purse and off they went. This is a normal modus operandus in Italy.

I should add that the woman and her daughter had "I'm a tourist so rob me" written all over them. But then again, the woman got robbed twice in Manhattan. So it could happen anywhere.

With the sorry state of the world's economies, the thieves have become more brazen. What do they have to lose? In jail they get three meals a day and a warm bed, and running hot and cold water.

-- Sikaan (Sikaan4@aol.com), January 15, 2002.

I travel extensively in Europe including Italy, was there twice last year, in Rome and Firenze among others. I carry the smallest camera bag I can, with a shoulder strap *and* waist-belt (would take 2 thieves with 3 hands each to get it off me). Or I wear a vest *with zippered pockets* and *under* a windbreaker. I always wear a light windbreaker or second shirt or jacket--keeps the UV off my arms and the cameras under wraps. I try to not get into thick crowds. When I walk in areas where pickpockets frequent (tourist areas, train stations, etc.)I walk with a "purposeful stride" and usually a stern expression on my face, have both hands free, and I keep looking around. In other words I do my best to look like I'm game for a fight, and that's the last thing pickpockets are looking for.

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), January 15, 2002.

It's been a couple of years since I went to Italy (Rome, Florence, Venice and Milan, standard tourist route) and had no problems until we got to Milan. In Milan, we didn't get out of the train station before 2 or 3 men asked to act as "guides" and/or "help" us with our luggage, looking them directly in the eye and giving a firm "No" was sufficient to send them off to look for easier targets. After checking into the hotel (Sat. afternoon in the business district), my then-girlfriend and I decide to go see the Duomo. On the way to the subway station we were accosted by a street person who was very insistent that we need to hire him as a "guide" or, at least give him some money. If I'd had a few Mille in my pocket I would have given it to him just to get him to go away, but all my money was in my wallet and I wasn't about to pull that out. It took quite a bit of LOUD cursing and near violence to get him to bugger-off. As unpleasant as that was, no one ever tried to steal, by stealth or force, anything from us while we were in Italy, just some aggressive panhandling. (We eventually took a taxi to the Duomo).

Other than these two experiences in Milan, we had zero problems in Italy. I'd like to think that by being observant (a good side effect of looking for photographs) and always acting as if I knew where I was going (especially when I didn't), I reduced my chances of being selected as a mark. Other things I did that I think reduced my status as a victim:
when sitting at a cafe with a bag I always tangle my foot in the strap (also helps you remember to grab your bag before you leave)
when actively taking pictures, I remove the camera from my neck and wrap the strap around my right wrist a couple of times (also, when the camera is held like this it makes a decent bludgeon)
checking my surroundings before consulting a map

Just make sure your not the easiest mark in the area, in most tourist areas this isn't too tough.

I'm sure dumb luck plays a significant role in all of this. It's also helpful that the Italians are pretty good about putting gendarmes in the most touristy areas.

-- Ron Buchanan (ronb@fusive.com), January 15, 2002.

When out walking the streets, carry just one body and one lens. No bag, no vest. Carry the extra film in your pants pockets. Wrap the neck strap securely around your wrist and carry the camera in your right hand. Much more discreet for street shooting and very secure in the grip of your hand. Also, believe it or not, it's easier on the back and neck to hold the camera in your hand all day than hanging it around your neck. It may take some getting used to, but after a full day you'll be convinced. And you won't look like a tourist--a Leica around the neck is pretty easy to spot from a hundred yards away. When it's held at your side you can be very discreet. Also, it will already be in your hand, which allows for a very quick response for that decisive moment. I just got back from ten days in San Francisco where I perfected this technique. Never again will I wear my Leica around my neck while walking city streets. Actually, I will make the exception for rainy or snow days, when my M6 will hide securely under a raincoat. Otherwise, it will be carried (and always ready to shoot) in my right hand.

-- Luke Dunlap (luked@mail.utexas.edu), January 15, 2002.

Beware of children who approach, often in groups, waving pieces of cardboard or jabbing you with them above waste-level as they ask for handouts. A favorite pickpocket technique in Rome is to use the cardboard to distract you and prevent you from seeing what the hands are doing as they reach into your pockets. Also, be wary of duos on motor scooters who drive by and and reach out to grab handbag or camera straps.

-- Peter B. Goldstein (peter.goldstein@us.cgeyc.com), January 15, 2002.

one traveler's trick is to put a heavy rubber band around your wallet if you keep it in an inside pocket. it's much harder to pull the wallet out without it sticking to the cloth of your jacket...otherwise, just be aware of your surroundings and avoid looking like a tourist with a fanny pack!

-- Carlin Mayer (carlinm@abac.com), January 15, 2002.

Alternatively, adopt the latest in "John Chan" designer wear - the muggers and thieves will be afraid of YOU!

-- Giles Poilu (giles@monpoilu.icom43.net), January 15, 2002.

If a thief approaches you by moped or by foot, whack them either politely or rudely using your Gitzo or Bogen tripod with an approximate angle of 60 degrees downward with maximum force. Sure to drive those guys away from your Leica!!!

-- Alfie Wang (leica_phile@hotmail.com), January 15, 2002.

Hello Don,

I have traveled through a good portion of Northern Italy twice and have never had a problem with theft. I usually carry 2 M6 bodies and 3 lenses and try to use common sense. The good thing is theft rarely involves violence, just pickpockets and it's my experience that you can usually spot them. I would not dwell on it if I were you and enjoy the great photo possibilities.

http://www.photo.net/photodb/image-display?photo_id=522748&size=md

Regards, Tom G.

-- Tom Gallagher (tgallagher10@yahoo.com), January 15, 2002.

don:

first of all insure your equipment and don't let worrying about it spoil what should be a good trip. when i travel i usually put my camera gear in the bottom of an old beat up back pack wrapped in an old shirt. i do not use camera back packs because they scream steal me. by the time you bury it with a novel, a light jacket and some various sundries it will be difficult to pick. if you dont look like you have much then the theives will look for some one more prosperous.

greg

-- greg mason (gmason1661@aol.com), January 15, 2002.

This was the photo I was trying to insert

-- Tom Gallagher (tgallagher10@yahoo.com), January 15, 2002.

My wife and I travel frequently throughout Europe and wholeheartedly agree with all of the above comments on pickpockets and Gypsies... This has been exacerbated by the underlying recession and the police policies... Another trick used throughout Italy is credit card fraud. Many gas stations or restaurants will add an additional Zero to the total in Lire unless you are alert. Thank God for the Euro as this should extirpate this form of larcenous behaviour. (8>))--Albert

-- Albert Knapp MD (albertknappmd@mac.com), January 15, 2002.

I like Greg Mason's response.

Insure your gear and have fun!

-- Rob Schopke (schopke@attbi.com), January 15, 2002.

Travel to Italy once a year for a corporate client. I go out in jeans and black track shoes, carry a leica over my shoulder and ten rolls of film in my pocket and photograph all day and all night on the streets of Rome. I've never been approached or threatened. Never had a gypsy approach me and I've never been cheated on a credit card bill. Fear attracts predators. Live without fear and no one will mess with you. To see Rome photos from this approach (including at times walking the streets with Hassleblad equipment) see my street stuff on my website at : http://www.kirktuck.com Get over your fear of losing stuff. Half the fun would be buying more. And if you get mugged, think of the stories you'll have to tell you Bridge Club.

Mean looking. Kirk

-- kirk tuck (kirktuck@kirktuck.com), January 15, 2002.

I recently took a trip with my oldest daughter to Spain. Part of the trip was her introduction to photography and my Leica's. One of the first lesson's was how to hold an M with the strap around your wrist and the lens in your hand, as one would hold a weapon. One evening she wanted to borrow a camera to go out for a walk. What film? Do you want a flash? No flash, no film. I want a weapon.

Take the M3 with the 50 DR Summicron. It is the heaviest and most comfortable to swing.

I agree with others, it depends on how you present yourself. My daughter went to Rome with an M3 and didn't have any problems, but then she grew up in Alaska.

:>

-- Mark A. Johnson (logical1@catholic.org), January 15, 2002.

My Jeep got broken into (with intent to steal) a couple of weeks ago.

Stolen: 3 C-cell Maglite.

Not Stolen: Compaq laptop.

Not Stolen: Leica M2 with 50mm DR Summicron and near-focus eyes. Who would want a quaint thing like that? What could it possibly be worth?

-- Bob Fleischman (RFXMAIL@prodigy.net), January 15, 2002.

The cardbourd trick was used on me in Rome as well. They also pinch your triceps so that you can't feel them working your pockets. I had a 28 Elmarit in my jacket pocket which they left alone (when will they go to Leica school?), amazingly left the wallet alone, just took the loose bills from the front pocket.

Just don't carry anything in an outer pocket that you don't want to loose. Don't use an umbrella or violence. The group are often (always) watched by their clan and they are fiercely protective. There are ways to avoid being picked; don't give them anything to pick.

I've been to Bratislava, Praha, Budapest, Vienna, Krakow, now Russia; Gypsies (they don't mind being called Gypsy, but they call themselves Roma; as "Indians" call themselves Native Americans, or whatever Tribe they originate from). The Gypsy moniker came from, what else, the ignorant Europeans who thought they came from Egypt. Back to the point: I've never had a problem; I've been robbed more in London and Chicago then anywhere else (too much to list). If you get paranoid, you'll spoil your trip. ENJOY

-- Chris Chen (chrischen@msn.com), January 15, 2002.

A couple years ago I was standing in front of a hotel on the street in Kensington, holding an M6 with a 50/2 and puffing on a good-sized cigar. Two young men with shaved heads walked up, one stopped to my left and the other went past me, stopped and turned around. ASsuming this was to be an assault, my left hand went into my coat pocket and took hold of the folded Leitz Table tripod with medium ballhead, I was prepared to crack open at least one of their shiny domes like a raw egg. The guy on my right started cursing me out for smoking the cigar, which is when I realized they were both quite inebrated. At that point I just stood there saying nothing, and eventually the loudmouth ran out of epithets, they both got bored and left. Had I immediately struck and seriously injured one of them, I would have spent the rest of my travel time and budjet on legalities; OTOH had I acted scared (if you run, you're prey) I might have ended up in the hospital. A lot depends on being able to stay calm and rational and follow the right instincts.

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), January 15, 2002.

Thanks to all for the valuable insights. Guess I'll just stay home. Just kidding. Thanks again. Don

-- Don M (maldos@home.com), January 15, 2002.

Chris- What part of Chicago were you robbed in? What time of the day or night was it?

-- Frank Horn (owlhoot45@hotmail.com), January 15, 2002.

I just returned from Europe, with a one night stopover in Milan. I didn't have much time, so I made a very quick evening trip to see the Duomo (via airport bus, metro, walking). I was through the central train station and on the metro and had absolutely no problems, even at night. But, then, I was without luggage and moving in a purposeful way. I did see Gypsy kids at the Burger King (I know, I know .. I wanted to stop for a nicer dinner, but I had little time.) but they SEEMED to be trying to collect donated burgers.

But, my wife did have a waist pack opened a few years ago in Rome. We were struggling with a lot of luggage on the metro and got surrounded by a pack of men jammed in the train car. Lesson - try to keep a space between you and others!!!!

I agree with previous comments - If you don't look like a target, if you are confident and reasonably careful, you won't be likely to have problems.

Especially after the Rome episode, I try to use airport buses or trains and cabs when I am with my luggage. Stuggling with luggage on the metro or through the streets isn't worth it, in terms of energy or risk. But, once the luggage is in the hotel room, I go almost anywhere, almost never with a waist pack (favorite target of thieves). I try to keep a camera under a jacket or loose overshirt. (I love winter!!!! It's great to have a jacket to put things under or in!)

-- Tom (therbert@miami.edu), January 16, 2002.

I have never actually been robbed face-to-face. But I couldn't find the word for "stolen from". I lived on the Gold Coast (Walton, later Oak St.) and my bldgs. didn't have any parking, so I parked on the street. I try to (of course, always legally) park as far east of La Salle as possibe (away from Cabrini Green). But, one night I had to park six blocks away. I had my heavy tool box with me and didn't want to lug it back. I usually lock in to the lanyard in the back of my SUV, but was particularly lazy that night. Got it stolen. Over the next six months, someone(s) broke into it three more times (nothing but toll change). Funny thing: they broke four different windows.

Storage unit "robbed" of Nikon F2, M4 black enamel (!), CL...... In London, on three separate trips "lost" 500 C/M out of hotel room, Oakleys from my coat hung up in a pub (Public House), and a Dunhill lighter off the pub bar when I went to the loo (De L'eax). I was with friends. They didn't do it, I thought they'd watch. No other losses, just Chicago, London, and Rome.

Don't worry, be happy, no violence.

-- Chris Chen (chrischen@msn.com), January 16, 2002.

I forgot:

Giles, it's Jackie Chan

I guess I found another use for a monopods/tripod (see previous threads)

-- Chris Chen (chrischen@msn.com), January 16, 2002.

Don,

If you have at least two persons going together, then it should be fine with thieves. You two can look out for each other in the crowded place, ex. subway, flee market...

If you do go out at late night, be ware of robbery, people usually having dinner very late there, after your late dinner just get with the crowd and stay on light streets. I was almost got robbed last year during New Year, close to my hotel near Spanish steps in Roma.

Gerenally speaking, it's a safe place, just people can spot you as tourists easier than in New York or chicago...

Have a good trip! Fred

-- Fred Ouyang (yo54@columbia.edu), January 16, 2002.

Don't get paranoid about getting stuff stolen. As the police always say: don't resist. stuff is replacable; you're not. Preparation is key.

My philosophy: Losing stuff; getting stuff robbed; getting stuff stolen is Gods way of telling you:

1. You have too much stuff

2. You've been bad (stolen from others, taken money from others (being paid goofing off in some forum), cheating on your taxes); what goes around comes around

ALL RELIGIONS ARE EQUALLY TRUE

Be good, work hard/play hard, don't worry, be happy

Bon Voyage

-- Chris Chen (chrischen@msn.com), January 16, 2002.

Chris, "Giles, it's Jackie Chan" - errr, no, I was trying to make a joke about JOHN Chan's incognito street shooting wear - see other thread.

Nothing to do with Jackie Chan, sorry.

-- Giles Poilu (giles@monpoilu.icom43.net), January 16, 2002.

always take a backup with you when you are travelling.

-- stefan randlkofer (geesbert@yahoo.com), January 16, 2002.

my god, this site makes me scared stiff. Never lost anything directly to thieves, but my camerabag was stolen out of a VW-beetle years ago. Still suffering when I think about the M4 and the CL +++ which went for ever.

Good luck on your trip, Don.

-- K. G. Wolf (k.g.wolf@web.de), January 16, 2002.

Oh yeah, Europe's dangerous. And the hotels have wood stoves, only cold water (if running water at all), and you get funny exotic viruses with your food.

Just insure your photo equipment. And don't appear to be a tourist. I.e., jeans are OK, waist packs and sneakers are not. If anything shouts 'tourist' to me, a European, it's waist packs!

-- Oliver Schrinner (piraya@hispavista.com), January 16, 2002.

Hey .. In Europe a couple of weeks ago, I stayed in a hotel with only wood stoves! Of course I had to hike up almost 1000m in elevation through a snowstorm to reach it. And, well, it wasn't really a hotel, more like a mountain lodge! Well, really more like a mountain hut.

And, I felt a lot safer in Europe than in many big US cities. Trying to stay away from gypsy kids is a LOT easier than trying to avoid crazy people with big guns in the USA. Just leave the waist/fanny pack and the sneakers home. Even experienced US travelers know that. Nobody will pay attention to your Leica tucked under your jacket.

-- Tom (therbert@miami.edu), January 16, 2002.

Oliver,

Have you been to Bilbao, Spain, or Northern Ireland, maybe the Balkans, Chechnya, any football stadium in England? I can't even donate blood anymore (says the Red Cross); I spent more than eight months in Europe; exposed to the Mad Cow disease. And, there are in the remote areas I've been to hotels such as you describe, some are pretty bad.

-- Chris Chen (chrischen@msn.com), January 16, 2002.

Another travel-wise tip: Go to one of those jewelry bazaars and find about a 2ft length of cheap rope chain (plated, it doesn't matter). Then buy a velcro-trifold nylon wallet, one with a small loop inside that is used to pull open the spare-change pocket. Put a small split- rind through the loop and one end-link of the chain; the other end of the chain gets a safety pin. Pull one of your *front* trouser pockets inside-out and make a little "accordion" from the fabric at the bottom of the pocket, stick the safety pin through it (so it goes through several times). This is a variation of the Biker Wallet, except that it doesn't stick out of your pocket.

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), January 16, 2002.

Don, I had all of my luggage stolen from my rental auto (hatchback)in Milano last year. I am a large guy and finding suitable replacement clothes in Northern Italy was IMPOSSIBLE. My wife was devastated by the loss of her outfits and accessories. No camera equipment was stolen. I did not have any problems with pick pockets, but was on the lookout. Theft is quite a problem in Italy. Be especially aware of packing valuables in suitcases; several travelers that we met had their suitcases pilfered at the airport. Places of high tourist traffic are the areas of primary concern.

-- David (pagedt@chartertn.net), January 16, 2002.

I agree with Jeff Spirer here, most of you lot seem to imagine you are going to a war zone and dress and act accordingly - no wonder you are a target. Just take sensible precautions as you would visitng any large city in the US and be OK. Most European cities are less dangerous than in the US. Thieves are in all countries. Italy just has a lot of obvious and perhaps rather stupid tourists making the picking better for those thieves that do exist.

-- Robin Smith (smith_robin@hotmail.com), January 16, 2002.

I adamantly disagree with Robin's post. I travel all over North America in my professional career and have travelled in many major cities throughout the world. I would never be characterized as a "stupid tourist" and take great umbrage at the assertion. Italy IS a troublespot despite the dismissal by several posters on this forum.

-- David (pagedt@chartertn.net), January 16, 2002.

I agree that Italy can be a problem spot. But, I think the potential for problems can be limited. The large cities in Italy seem to have a LOT of car break-ins. I've driven extensively in N. Italy and had absolutely no problems but I've never driven a car into Milan or especially into Rome. My mode of travel often involves a rental car but I usually leave at a hotel outside major cities, much because I don't care to fight the traffic in large, unfamiliar cities.

Or, I carefully get myself and luggage to a city hotel, avoiding the most crowded public transportation.

Then, in the city, I'm free of luggage and can pay attention to my surroundings more carefully.

Even with that, as I posted previously, my wife did have her waist pocket picked in Rome. But, that was the result of us not following our own rules.

One more thing - I have heard of problems with baggage at Malpensa airport in Milan. I didn't have any such difficulties on my trip a couple of weeks ago, but checked bags connecting through Malpensa were plastic wrapped for security and contained no valuables other than my custom made mountain boots.

-- Tom (therbert@miami.edu), January 16, 2002.

Watch out for your credit card while paying for things. DON'T let it out of your sight. Copies of the number and any magnet information on the strip are easily made, and a counterfeit card issued quite quickly. This happened to us last summer/fall, and we still don't know when or where it was done.

-- Margaret (fitz@neptune.fr), January 16, 2002.

Don,

Just make sure to bring your brain.

I worked as a night receptionist in a Copenhagen hotel for several years during my studies, and you'd be surprised how tourists seem to have forgotten that very important part of themself when they left their home country: Leaving passports and other valuables in the cars at night, walking 10 meters away from their luggage while pointing all their attention at me to make sure I don't misuse their creditcard. Leaving the hotel room unlocked. Leaving thier bags at the breakfast table while going to the buffet. I can't imagine that the IQ of our guest was lower than the average, I think something happens to people when they travel, and thieves knows that.

Bring your common sense, your Leica and enjoy your trip (I have traveled extensively in wonderful Italy and never had any problems).

-- Niels H. S. Nielsen (nhsn@ruc.dk), January 17, 2002.

I thought it was "Police and Thieves"...

-- Dave Doyle (soilsouth@home.com), January 17, 2002.