I just bought a Motor-M to use with my M6 TTL. I've noticed that the shutter noise is much louder if the film has been advanced by the motor than if it has been advanced manually (i.e. with the motor switched OFF). Is this normal?

-- Ray Moth (ray_moth@yahoo.com), January 13, 2002

Answers

Ray, there are others that have reported similar experiences. However IMO, the answer is a simple "NO!" The shutter noise is constant, and adding the motor can make little difference other than in advance noise itself. I have two motors on two different bodies and they absolutely impart no additional shutter noise into the system. Others have claimed the addition of the motor imparts an extra clack during manual advance that is significant. Yes there is a slight difference in advance noise when advanced manually with the motor attached, but IMO it is not significant in my combination of bodies and motors.

-- Jack Flesher (jbflesher@msn.com), January 13, 2002.

I second what Jack has said.

-- sam smith (Ruy_Lopez@hotmail.com), January 14, 2002.

Please allow me to elaborate and to postulate whay may be the cause of the additional din. The steps are as follows:

1. Allow the motor to advance the film.

2. Turn OFF the motor.

3. Release the shutter: there is a loud CLACK, as if something had been under tension. (I agree that the noise is probably not coming from the shutter itself).

4. With the motor still OFF, advance the film manually for the next shot: there is no abnormal feel or noise during this operation.

5. Release the shutter again: this time, the sound is normal.

My uneducated guess about what may be happening is that, in step 3 above, the depressing of the shutter release is also tripping something in the motor (that makes a loud noise) to allow it to advance the film next time it is activated. In step 5, however, the motor has already been tripped, so the only noise to be heard is the quiet sound of the shutter itself.

-- Ray Moth (ray_moth@yahoo.com), January 14, 2002.

Ray: based on your detailed description, consider this.

Except for maybe the very first M4-2 motors, Leica motors, including the new one, stop the motor advance via a torque switch.

The motor advances the film. When the camera's shutter/wind reaches the end of its travel, the motor keeps applying torque, and since the shaft can't move any further, the motor starts TWISTING in the opposite direction within the case. As it twists it separates two contacts, breaking the flow of power and stopping the process. So things in the wind train (as well as the shutter) are indeed under "tension" once the motor has wound the film and stopped.

Releasing the shutter, with or without the motor turned on, also unlocks the wind system and releases the tension there and within the motor.

Thus the 'CLACK".

There are ways to adjust the amount of noise and kick this weird system creates (changing the position of the contacts so they separate earlier in the "twist" etc). It's also perfectly possible that a given camera or motor needs adjusting even to work right - my M4-2/Ps won't work with any kind of motor at the moment, while I've tried fresh-on-the- shelf M6s with both the new motor and the upright previous version and they worked fine.

Check your film, too. The motor's interaction with the release mechanism can sometimes cause fouling of the second curtain if out of adjustment, resulting in half-frame exposures, etc.

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), January 14, 2002.

i bought the motor when i bought my m6. i thoought i couldn't live without a winder. most of my former cameras i had motorized. but i also had the posibility to take the motor off, when i didn't need it. not so with the m6. you have to rewind the film to do so. therefor it stays at home most of the time.

another thing is the rather annoying kickback of the release. a softy helps, but not much. and it lacks a proper single shot mode. i should have spend a bit more and got a hexar rf instead. the m is a camera where manual winding is no hassle at all and the ergonomics do not improve substantially by adding something to it. my opinion at least

-- stefan randlkofer (geesbert@yahoo.com), January 14, 2002.

To give you the best of both worlds, buy a RapidWinder.

-- John Collier (jbcollier@powersurfr.com), January 14, 2002.

Ray, I get the "clack" as well. It looks like the motor pre-tensions the gears just a litte too much, so when you hit the shutter the sound is definitely louder. BTW, it happens with both my M4-P and M6 TTL, so it appears to be a generic issue, rather than a recent model TTL one.

The good news though is that from practical experience, even though the motor sounds loud when in your hands, from 2m away you can barely hear it. How do I know? A relative wanted to take a few photos of me on Christmas day and I handed them the motorised M6. Was completely surprised over how I could barely hear the motor!

-- Andrew Nemeth (azn@nemeng.com), January 14, 2002.

This is probably going to sound a little dorky. I don't know how anything works. Technology is not my line. But with my off the shelf M-6 TTL and motor I've had no weird noises. In fact, I am amazed at how quiet that motor is. Of course it not as quiet as thumbing it but it is close. In my view it is essential to have any Leica M that has been used a lot serviced to sync with the motor. The Rapidwinder is forgiving; the motor is not. Even if the motor advances the film, I'm told, it can happen that at slower speeds frames will run into each other.

I tried a demo motor on my old c. 1985-86 M-6 and it didn't work. Tried my new motor on it briefly and it did work--at least advanced the shutter. A short time later my old M-6's shutter froze. I don't think there was a direct causal relationship. I should have had that old M-6 serviced years ago. It's in the shop now and I am not looking forward to the bill.

I must admit that I bought the motor with some fear and trembling. I have been pleasantly surprised. It is very quiet as motors go. It is not as heavy as I thought it would be. When the last frame is used up it just stops working, so there is no danger of ripping the film out of the casset and putting an added strain on rewind. The motor's touchiness has an extra bonus that I've found. It would not advance film that had a slight rip. (I trimmed it and struck it into my IIIf.)

It must be remembered that while the Leica shutter is quiet, there is always going to be some kind of rachet noise on rewind. I've found that it's a lot less with the motor.

The Rapidwinder is a gem of gems, of course. It does not need batteries. You can choose the moment when you want to rewind. You get lifetime service from the loving hands of Tom Abrahamsson. And, as I said, it is forgiving with old cameras. Though you owe it to yourself to have you Leica serviced anyway. The voice of one who is sadder but wiser.

A little tip. Based on personal experience. If you are having trouble loading your Leica M it is time for it to be serviced. I had awful problems with the take up when loading the old M-6 before it froze up. No problems with the new M-6 TTL and my new late model classic M-6. (I'm not rich; I just don't mind eating only peanut butter and jelly sandwiches for the next few months.) I'm finding that I am having loading problems with my M-4 which means it is next for service.

It is my sense that if there is anything wrong with your shutter the problem will come out sooner if you use a Rapidwinder or a motor. But that may be simply because you shoot more with it.

-- Alex Shishin (shishin@pp.iij4-u.or.jp), January 14, 2002.