I want to learn how to pray the Hail Mary in Latin, but I also want to get the pronunciation right. I have studied Latin pronunciation guides on the net, but I would love to find a sound recording of someone actually praying the Ave Maria in latin, so I know I have the pronunciation correct.

First time checking out the site and the forum, and it looks like a great Catholic resource.

-- Gordon Vink (gordonvink@bigfoot.com), January 07, 2002

Answers

Gordon, the problem is, we have three different and equally correct pronunciations: the rather original one--as deduced from Greek transcriptions of Latin words and vice versa--, the one that became popular in the 4th century A.D., and the one used nowadays. We can't discount the latter one as we have to consider Latin a living language, it being the official language of the Vatican:

Vowels: as in German; or, if that's more helpful, as in Japanese
C: as /k/ before a, o, u, and consonants; like English 'ch' (e.g. in "chair") before e and i
G: as in 'Gordon' before a, o, u, and consonants; as 'j' (as in French journal) before e and i
J: treated as 'i'--it's a medieval addition to Latin
Q: as if it were a 'k'
U/V: as English 'v' if a vowel follows, otherwise as /u/
X:as /ks/>
z: as /ts/
Double consonants, e.g. 'gg': as the respective single ones, just a slightly prolonged
Diphthongs: 'ae' as /e/ (e.g. English "get"; 'oe' as the German umlaut-o; ue as the German umlaut-u
'Ti': as /tsi/

If you want to go classic, there are a few differences:
C: always as /k/
G: always as in "Gordon"
U/V: bilabial, not dentolabial
Diphthongs: 'ae' as /a/ followed by an almost inaudible /i/; 'oe' as /o/ followed by an almost inaudible /e/; 'ue' as /u/ followed by an almost inaudible /e/
'Ti': /t/ followed by /i/

You see, it's not that difficult. And God understands you anyway!
If you want to hear it "life", mail me directly for my phone number. I live in a place where Latin is in actual use, and I've been a teacher myself.

Pax et bonum,

-- Oliver Schrinner (piraya@hispavista.com), January 07, 2002.

Hello, Gordon.
Welcome to the forum. Glad you like it!

I tried to find a spoken version of "Ave, Maria" for you to listen to, but did not succeed. The next best thing I could find for you is a way to listen to a recording of Schubert's "Ave Maria" sung by Frank Sinatra. As you listen, you can follow a phonetic guide of the words that I will spell out below.

After clicking on the link I will provide below, you will go to an Internet page that will ask you to click on another link -- in order to download a very large ".MP3" file (about 2.5 megabytes [2,500,000 bytes]) probably to the TEMP directory of your hard drive. If you have associated some sound-playing software (e.g., WINAMP or RealAudio) with .MP3 files, the music will start to play immediately.

Now here is the first link.

And here is the Latin "Hail, Mary" phonetically. (The capitalized syllables in multi-syllabic words should be stressed/accented.) I think that you'll find it in pretty close agreement with Oliver's excellent guide for ecclesiastical Latin pronunciation (above):

Ave, María, ... AH-vay mah-REE-ah,
grátia plena, ... GRAH-tsee-ah PLAY-nah,
Dóminus tecum; ... DOE-mee-noos TAY-koom;
benedícta tu in muliéribus, ... beh-neh-DEEK-tah too in moo-lee-EH-ree-boos,
et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Jesus. ... et beh-neh-DEEK-toos FROOK-toos VEN-tris TOO-ee, YAY-zoos.

Sancta María, Mater Dei, ... SAHNK-tah mah-REE-ah, MAH-tehr DAY-ee,
ora pro nobis peccatóribus, ... OR-ah pro NO-biss pek-ah-TOR-ee-boos,
nunc et in hora mortis nostræ. Amen. ... noonk et in HOR-ah MOR-tis NO-stray. AH-men.

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), January 07, 2002.

Gordon,
I just stated: "If you have associated some sound-playing software (e.g., WINAMP or RealAudio) with .MP3 files, the music will start to play immediately."
First, I should have said "immediately after the download has ended," which could be very quick or could take some time, depending on how fast an Internet connection you have. Also, it is possible that the MP3 file will not start playing immediately. You may have to start it yourself by finding it on your drive and double-clicking on it.
JFG

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), January 07, 2002.

Thank you both for the excellent answers.

That song by Frank Sinatra is incredibly beautiful. I love that version of Ave Maria.

I just started studing Latin off of the net, two days ago, and should have stressed that it was ecclesiastical Latin pronunciation that I am interested in.

Thanks John for that pronunciation spelling of each word, as I was doing that myself, and have been working on it for quite a few hours, while studing pronunciation guides. I see at least two words that I got wrong. I knew muliéribus would be a tough one to get correct! :)

After I memorize praying the Hail Mary in Latin, I will move on to the Our Father, and the other prayers of the Rosary. I wish they taught this in the Catholic schools I went to when growing up, but they teach very little Catholicism in Catholic schools today.

Maybe when I am done, I will setup a webpage, that provides a pronunciation spelling of all these prayers in Latin, for other Catholics that might be interested in it, because I searched an incredible lot, and could not find a site that provided a pronunciation spelling. Maybe even should create a .mp3 or .wav file, of me praying that prayer for others to listen to, to help in their pronunciation.

The reason why I have this interest, is that I read in the local newspaper last week, that some British researcher said that those who pray the rosary in Latin, have healther hearts, because of the more regular breathing that this prayer in Latin produces.

Now I can add these Latin prayers to my Palm IIIc PDA.

-- G. Vink (gordonvink@bigfoot.com), January 07, 2002.

Here is an article mentioning the British Medical Journal study that showed praying the Hail Mary in Latin is good for one's health.

-- G Vink (gordonvink@bigfoot.com), January 07, 2002.

Gordon,

Just curious, did you find a Catholic latin instruction course on- line? That would be something good to link, I'd think.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), January 07, 2002.

> "Just curious, did you find a Catholic latin instruction course on- line?"

No, just some basic Latin pronunciation guides online. Here is an interesting Latin Catholic site: Treasury of Latin Prayers , which offers tips on Latin pronunciation.

A good online Latin dictionary here.

Pronunciation guide for the Church's mass in Latin here.

-- G Vink (gordonvink@bigfoot.com), January 07, 2002.

Thanks for the good links, Gordon.
JFG

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), January 08, 2002.

Gordon,

I was just going to mention to you that Classic Latin and Ecclesiastic Latin have very different pronunciations, and then I saw your post refering to your knowledge of this fact.

As Latin is one of the languages I studied, I have never stumbled upon any explanation of why Ecclesiastic Latin differs. Can any poster here tell me why this is so?

-- Melissa (holy_rhodes@earthlink.net), January 08, 2002.

John: thank your for your transcription. I really like it!

Gordon: regarding this pronunciation guide you gave us a link to, thank you as well; it's better than mine, although it contains at least one error regarding the examples. I also doubt an Italian would understand Latin pronounced that way... It's about 3 hours to Bolzano from where I live right now, and the place I'm in has so many Italian students and employees we consider Italian the second offical language.

Melissa: each language changes over time. E.g., look at the differences in European Spanish vs. Latin American Spanish; it also gives us an example of differences in pronunciation, and that's what happened to Latin over time. "Classic" Latin as taught at schools uses a reconstruction of pronunciation in Cicero's times, due to renewed interest in non-Biblical texts during the Renaissance, which brought us a huge educational revolution. That one, however, is connected with a number of Germans, who went about the matter with very German Gründlichkeit (thoroughness). Italians, much less nitpicking, continued to pronounce Latin they way they were used to--and as their vernacular language is just a Latin of sorts, why not? Given the location of the Vatican, it's just natural Ecclesiastic Latin is pronounced 'the Italian way'. (And if you've ever heard a traditional Mass in German-Latin pronunciation--I have--, you're thankful for it.)

Pax et bonum,

-- Oliver Schrinner (piraya@hispavista.com), January 08, 2002.

Jmj

Hello, Oliver.
Thank you for complimenting my transcription of the Ave Maria.

I agree with you that Gordon's linked guide to pronunciation of ecclesiastical Latin is thorough and accurate -- with one exception.
I wonder if you and I agree on the exception!

My opinion is that the very first line is the only wrong one:
"a" ............ as in am ............... [examples] ad, mater

Wherever I have heard English spoken, the "a" in "am" has been what we called a "short a," a sound I have heard only in English and French, not in Latin. In fact, I just typed four words that contains this sound in the last sentence! -- have, has, have, and Latin.

In ecclesiastical Latin, an "a" is usually pronounced with a relaxed, open mouth, as in our English interjection, "Aha!" This is obvious if one things about how he has heard the three a's in "Ave, Maria" sung! Those a's do not sound like the "a" in "am."

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), January 08, 2002.

Correction to second-last sentence:
This is obvious if one thinks about how he has heard the three a's in "Ave, Maria" sung!

-- (_@_._), January 08, 2002.

Gordon,

Thanks for the links.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), January 08, 2002.

If you liked that version of Schubert`s Ave María by F. Sinatra, it means you know little of opera.

Sinatra is an excellent singer. But his version of Ave María is awful. His Latin is in similar terms.

I suggest that you use your searcher and get these two versions (ideally on MP3, but you may also find some midi files):

Plácido Domingo´s Ave María (Schubert) Lucciano Pavarotti´s Ave María (Schubert).

Believe me, you will love those two, and the lyrics are better pronounced (both tenors sing in latin frequently).

Get also the Lyrics in plain text. Be aware that the lyrics are not exactly -(depends on the version)- the Hail Mary prayer.

In Christ,

Juan.

-- Juan (manuel1998@hotmail.com), January 10, 2002.

I love to hear Kathleen Battle's version of Ave Maria. Her CD recording with Leonard Slatkin and the Orchestra of St. Luke's is titled ''A Christmas Celebration''. EMI Angel Digital, CDC-7 47587 2

She sings a lovely rendition of both Schubert's Ave Maria, with harp accompaniment and the orchestra, AND-- the Bach/Gounod Ave Maria as well. Her work is incomparable in this type of music.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), January 10, 2002.

Thanks Juan for pointing that out! I do know very little of Opera, but I do very much appreciate Pavarotti, and I have one of his CD's that has both Ave Maria's versions.

I did not know that the version I liked so much, was by a person named Schubert. I will listen carefully to Pavarotti's rendition of that today, and see how the pronunciation goes. Excellent!

I had this CD all along, but forgot about it.

Gordon

-- G Vink (gordonvink@bigfoot.com), January 10, 2002.

Dear Gordon,
Pavarotti's rendition is very fine, too. I've seen the video of his Christmas program, and when he sang the Ave Maria, he had tears in his eyes! His song was an act of love to Mary our mother. His private life is another thing. But we aren't judging that. Only the Ave Maria, sung very lovingly.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), January 10, 2002.

Jmj

Hello, Juan.
I guess that it's a matter of opinion on Sinatra. I found his singing to be fine -- as well as his pronunciation! He was a popular/jazz singer, not an opera singer, so we cannot expect that same operatic tenor style as one hears with Pavarotti/Domingo et al. [By the way, I much prefer the normal style of singing (which Sinatra shares with 99% of the rest of us mere mortals) to the operatic style, which I find very unnatural, too heavy on the vibrato, etc..]

Where I erred with Sinatra, though, is that the MP3 Sinatra "Ave Maria" that I linked for Gordon is incomplete. Someone edited it, chopping out the middle. I made the big mistake of not listening to the entire MP3 file before linking it here, so I apologize.

New subject for Gordon:
Be careful when you listen to any CDs or Internet MP3s or MIDIs of Pavarotti or Domingo singing Schubert's "Ave Maria." Some of them do not start with the "Hail Mary" in Latin (Ave Maria, gratia plena ...)!!!

By an almost incredible coincidence, I received a private e-mail on this subject a week ago from a professional singer who had visited this forum and read a recent thread on Schubert's Ave Maria. To make a long story short, her request amounted to my helping her find the special lyrics sung by Pavarotti and Domingo (to Schubert's music) on two recordings she has -- a stanza that they sing before the Latin words that we know so well. She thought that the special stanza might be a translation of the original poem, "Ave Maria, Maiden Mild" (by Sir Walter Scott), which was the actual inspiration to Schubert's composition.

I had been completely unaware of the special stanza (not having heard either famous tenor's recordings), so I had to really do some extensive digging. At last, I found, on the Internet, two recordings and the lyrics of the special stanza. Here is what I determined:
--- The opening stanza of the Pavarotti and Domingo versions that my correspondent has is not in Latin, but Italian! Apparently, it is sung at some Italian weddings. [There really does not seem to exist a Latin translation of Sir Walter Scott's original "Ellen's Song III" (Ave Maria, Maiden Mild).]
--- The Italian words that the tenors sing are not a translation of the "Hail, Mary" (Ave Maria, gratia plena)!
--- The Italian words are not a translation of Scott's "Ellen's Song III" either!
--- The Italian words seem to be an independently written poem/hymn, which may or may not originally have been intended to be sung with the Schubert music. Here are the Italian words, which Pavarotti and others seem to sing with slight variations, followed by a very unofficial translation that I made of them:

Ave Maria! Vergin del ciel,
sovrana di grazie e madre pia, che accogli ognor la fervente preghiera,
non negar a questo straziato mio cor tregua al suo dolor!
Sperduta l'alma mia si prostra a te, e piena di speme si prostra ai tuoi piè,
t'invoca e attende che tu dedia la pace che solo tu poi donar.
Ave Maria!

Hail Mary! Virgin of Heaven, sovereign of grace and dutiful mother,
who always accepts a fervent prayer, do not deny this anguished heart of mine a rest from its pain!
My lonely soul bows to you, full of hope, prostrate at your feet,
and calls on you to listen, that you may grant the peace that only you can give.
Hail, Mary!

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), January 10, 2002.

Oliver,

Thanks for the history of Latin. Had I applied my mind, I might have realized the evolution of languages!

-- Melissa (holy_rhodes@earthlink.net), January 11, 2002.