so are we satisfied with the back line or should we look at a new rebuilding project. I'm not sure Dabizas/ Distin is the right thing in the middle. Elliott is seemingly getting worse by the minute. Aaron might be the best of the bunch but we should do better at RB....

-- Anonymous, January 02, 2002

Answers

Absent Protectors....

-- Anonymous, January 02, 2002

I've made my feelings clear on the defence before. Not one of them is any good, I really don't think I'm being harsh either. Elliott is useless, Hughes is *decent* and I don't rate Dabs/O'Brien/Distin at all. Each of them is a decent footballer but unlike attack there is no room for individuals in defence. The 3, 4 or 5 at the back should be able to work as a unit and they should all be able to SPEAK ENGLISH. Apparantly Distin can - when you get someone like Elliott screaming at the top of his voice I bet only an Englishman can make our what he says! We need experience - Adams, Keown, Matt Elliott etc could all do a job for us. If we continue to buy players who are good 'pound for pound' then we will get nowhere. We need a couple of established centre backs who will shout, scream and fight with the full backs to get in to the right position to make the tackle. At the moment, whenever we concede a goal everyone looks at each other with a guilty look, that's wrong, we NEED experienced defenders to basically scare the living shite out of the younger defenders - Adams, Keown, Schmeichel, Bruce, Pallister, Pearce ALL used to do that and look at what happened to their teams and defensive records!

Once again tonight I strongly believe 2 of the 3 goals could have been stopped by a good defence. Scholes' second was unstoppable but the other 2 you can put down to terrible marking.

I'm gutted at the result but we are still 4th in the league and IF we beat Leeds we are guaranteed to move up. We all said December was our hardest test. Hey, if we can be 3rd or 4th mid January I'd be over the moon.

-- Anonymous, January 02, 2002

That was bloody annoying. Shocking defending for all three goals cost us dearly because we matched them in every other way. Dabizas is the weak link for me and O'Brien should always get the nod ahead of him in my opinion.

More infuriating though was the way in which we showed them far, far too much respect. Why do we always do it down at their place? If we had only used our pace up front they would have had a much more uncomfortable evening.

Apart from that though I'm not concerned about this result. We look top six material and if we dont finish in one of those places I will be seriously pissed off.

Oh, and as I said before a ball was kicked this season...they wont win the league this time.

-- Anonymous, January 02, 2002

A settled back line is best. Dabs and O'Brien have been great when they played together for a lot of consecutive games.

Dabs was crap tonight. Several times not playing to the whistle but standing with his arm raised, a la Arsenal, and then not being able to make up his ground. That cost us one of the goals.

I think Distin and O'Brien are good. I think Dabs and O'Brien are good. Not sure about D&D tho'

-- Anonymous, January 02, 2002

forgot to mention.... I'd rather see Barton at left back than Elliot

-- Anonymous, January 02, 2002

Plus ca change...

Last season, we were moaning about Hughes and Goma being great individually but not being great as a unit. We were equally moaning about both fullback positions.

Question: has anything really changed?

Actually, while conceding goals is disappointing, I really had high hopes that our attack would punish that shite Man U defence (and it is shite - we had two clear cut chances in the first ten minutes.)

-- Anonymous, January 02, 2002

Robbie Elliott, though, is out-and-out sh*te: I'd currently prefer Wayne Quinn, Barton or Bernard at LB.

-- Anonymous, January 02, 2002

I thought Distin was great, our best player, speed, power, made a couple of mistakes but was the best defender by miles. This is in his third (?) start in Englishg football, when we are talking about expecting Robert to maybe take a season ??

Hughes is fine.

O'Brien is better than Dabs, who can be fine but has an inbuilt desire to make a cock up.

Elliot was okay tonight but isn't good enough. Anyone suggesting Barton needs smiled at and humoured. Similarly with Quinn.

-- Anonymous, January 02, 2002

Elliot was poor, it is apparent that being a geordie may not be enough.

Distin looked classy but was a little too laid back not only in this game but in all of his appearances. Dabs did OK in my book but it seems like a bollock a mandatory part of his game. Manu are a decent side and the game always looked full of goals its just a pity we didn't get through enough to make Bartez earn is wages.

Credit where it's due they were better than us.

-- Anonymous, January 02, 2002

Diappointing but we were far from disgraced. I think we have seen enough of Elliot to know that he is letting us down, and Hughes positional play and slowness to move forward were very apparent. I would persevere with Hughes, but I am think that Quinn deserves another chance. As for the mid field -- we do not function well with both Speed and Lee. We lacked the breadth of previous games -- would have preferred to see Bernard or Lua Lua included from the start instead of Lee. This was not a catastrophic defeat -- we are going to cause lots of teams problems.

-- Anonymous, January 02, 2002

A CASE, they need a flippin Trunk!

-- Anonymous, January 02, 2002

Thing is, Elliott isn't going to get any better. Aaron's confidence seems to get knocked easily in this position - I think YBR has to tell him that since this is his first season at RB, no one is expecting miracles, but I don't suppose this will happen.

-- Anonymous, January 03, 2002

PS. Regarding Hughes, I think he was a fairly cautious CH so he'll have to work at attacking in this new position.

-- Anonymous, January 03, 2002

Equally, just a thought: even if we had the money, who are the really good fullbacks at present? I'm really struggling to think of that many who would materially improve on what we've got.

-- Anonymous, January 03, 2002

There's a whole world full of decent defenders if we had the wedge to get them. Distin needs to be more patient, contrary to other opinions. I don't think he was relaxed at all, certainly not for 30mins. Hughes was rushed, but if we had any real options (Griff?) he may only make the bench if he was lucky. Elliott was no better than any game I've seen, but Dyer didn't exactly give him cover. Dabs was ok for large parts but some dreadful marking gave them 2 goals...Van NIstelroy's goal was shocking, absolutely dreadful. Scholes followed up well to get his pair...how much do I want him playing for us.

So, rebuilding? No, we need a settled lineup at the back, but adding 2 players, a centre half and left back, would help.

-- Anonymous, January 03, 2002

As regards central defence, i've always been an exponent of stability and the patient approach. I don't think it's any coincidence that last night's pairing was a new combination. The mistakes were due to coordination and communication rather than an inherent lack of footballing skills (mental and physical). It was a strange game to try out a new option, but presumably Bobby had no choice. However, regardless, we should not be automatically looking for wholesale changes just because we made some mistakes. The way to iron out these errors is to stick with it. ManUtd have had similar teething problems, but Blanc last night coped with most things.

Full backs are another issue, although it's Elliot's distribution and attacking ability that worry me more.

-- Anonymous, January 03, 2002

It was a difficult game to judge last night if we use it as a bench mark for progress. I haven't seen the stats but we must have had at least the same number of chances, and I would suggest our chances were better created (ie not the result of defensive errors like their goals). We maintained good possession, and had some good passing moves. But giving away goals changes the whole complexion of any game and would leave any team vulnerable to the counterattack. All in all, I don't think we were much worse than ManUtd.

-- Anonymous, January 03, 2002

The funniest thing about this thread is that no one as far as I can tell, including me, who has expressed an opinion was actually at the match (although I know Lynda commented on the fullbacks elsewhere). Opinionated, us?

I know Stu thought they were poor, too, but it will be interesting to see what they have to say about Dabs and Distin, having the advantage of actually having been there.

-- Anonymous, January 03, 2002

I've been down this route before but I'll roll it our again.

I think our defenders should fundamentally be defenders. Commenting that Hughes isn't very good going forward isn't focusing on the issue. His role should be to stop the opposition in his area of the field and give it to one of the 6 attack minded players. Yes, have the abilityto help out, but he should only be viewed ad attack minded if we can guarantee that one of the midifled players covers for him.

Elliot is different, he seems to want to play at left back and we're bemoaning his ability to give the ball accurately to one of the attack minded players.

I sense a case of deja vu about to hit me with our centre halfs. 5 years ago I always thought Howey was best, Albert was okay and Peacock was a liability, even when he was voted player of the year. This was diametrically opposite to other (less perceptive) people. We have just started to reach the same situation with O'Brien, Dabizas and Distin (in no particular order). My conclusion was that if their were such huge differences of opinion it really meant that none of them were really good enough.

-- Anonymous, January 03, 2002

Hopefully the real match reports will be on the match report thread at some stage. Although watching a game on telly isn't the same, it's not totally irrelevant and you pick up some things you'd have no hope of seeing at the game. The ideal is being at the game then watching the video afterwards for details and slo-mos etc. Hopefully the match goers are analysing the video at the moment in order to give us the definitive in-depth post mortem.

-- Anonymous, January 03, 2002

Pete, I agree that Sky gives replays etc but it also misses off-the- ball runs quite often and equally doesn't give the same perspective of the pitch, so Sky viewers may not be aware of the amount of ground being covered by a player. I didn't really mean that, though: what I meant was that Screach, for example, hasn't missed a game for months and can therefore say whether last night was a blip or typical. I know most people on here go to many if not most games, but a Sky game once in a blue moon doesn't really give any credibility to someone diagnosing wholesale changes to the defence. Before anyone takes offence, I know not everyone can get to many games etc and I'm not suggesting the opinions of Sky viewers are irrelevant. I'm just saying that someone like Screach is much better equipped to make generalisations about the defence because he has quite literally seen it all.

-- Anonymous, January 03, 2002

MacB, I couldn't agree with you more.

-- Anonymous, January 03, 2002

PS. Just a minor point but we actually conceded 3 goals to them at home, too, with a defence of: Griffin - O'Brien - Dabizas - Elliott.

-- Anonymous, January 03, 2002

In the last two games our defence has been pants. QED.

-- Anonymous, January 03, 2002

In our last two games our defence has been up against highest and third highest scorers in the division, if we'd played Derby and Southapton and Boro as Manu did our defence would ahve looked far better

-- Anonymous, January 03, 2002

Against @rse and Leeds, I thought the defence were terrific. Perhaps a bit "backs to the wall" attitude, but they battled for (and got) everything. Last night, and Saturday to an extent, was different. Hughes and Elliott were caught out of position too often (as was Elliott against Chewsee). I'd rest Elliott and hope that either he regains some form in the Resorves or we find that Quinn/Bernard/Uncle Tom Cobley is better.

I also think we have to remember that this was Dabs' firts game back after breaking hose neb and having a gash on the leg (both courtesy of Verucca). Perhaps YBR felt he had to rest O'Brien, or maybe just realised he's too slow against quicksilver attackers.

However, from what I have seen thus far this season, I think we have some very good potential at CB in AO and SD. Both are very young for CBs and will hopefully form a good partnership. Distin is very good in the air when he's in a real challenge but IMHO stands off his man too much. I've noticed this quite a bit in the past and commented on here about it. But that was generally to do with the ball on the ground. Last night, he was beaten too many times in the air by RVN, who I don't rate as a header in the Sir Les mould. This was simply because RVN was in a better position to head the ball and made it difficult/impossible for Distin. But his pace is electric and he can regain lost yards for balls on the ground. Worth keeping.

I've also been impressed by O'Brien this season. Perhpas he's suffereing form over-exposure, or simply that against JFH/EG he was up against fast defenders. Perhaps we have to change tactics more than we do against certain teams and players???

No, I think the CBs are the lesser of my worries. Hughes has done a decent job at RB but I'm not convinced he's the finished article. Elliott worries me most. Perhaps as Mac says, he defends OK, but his distribution is awful and (almost) invariably, puts us back under pressure. Two obvious exceptions - the chip for Bellamy's goal against Villa and the cross for Shearer last night. But other than that, I can hardly recall a good pass that he has made.

Last night (as many other occasions) Shay uses RE as an outlet from the bcakpass or collection. It was pretty obvious last night that when he got the ball, he had little time to find his man and usually gave it straight back to ManUre MF. He might get away with it against Boro but not ManUre, Chewsee, Leeds or Liverpool. Take a look at the fixture list Bobby and fix it!!

-- Anonymous, January 03, 2002

.....it really doesn't matter who your playing if your CB's leave a top-class centre forward totally unmarked in the middle of the goal and inside the 6yd box. There is no possible excuse for for professionals doing something a schoolboy wouldn't do - precisely wtf do they think their job is?

Wrt Robbie Elliott, he is an excellent tackler and pretty decent positionally. I think the real problem is that he simply doesn't have the pace required of a PL full back. He is too easily skinned on the outside, although he limits this happening through good positional play. However, his lack of pace is really exposed when he goes forward, which is why he is reluctant to do it. I actually think he might be better playing as a CB/sweeper or just possibly in the holding role in m/f.

Funnily enough, despite everything, I suspect Elliott may still be the best LB we have as I have doubts about the defensive capabilities of both Bernard and Quinn.

-- Anonymous, January 04, 2002

There are a lot of issues to think about here but the biggest, for me, is that there are no quick fixes for defence. While a Shearer- Ferdinand partnership might flourish from day one, how many centre- half partnerships flourish from day one? I had great hopes of the Caldwells bringing an understanding to the heart of defence but that isn't looking likely. We just haven't stuck with a CH partnership for long spells at a time for ages. Dabs and O'B is probably the longest standing in terms of consecutive games we've had for a while and it looked the best despite vulnerabilities. However, we had to factor in Distin. It is only since we started fannying about that we have actually looked so bad. I'm not choosing Bobby's CH partnership for him, but I really think he should pick a pair and stick with it until one of them gets injured. At left back, Elliott is probably best but, if we are genuinely to challenge, then he may need replacing. At right back, Hughes has said he's not a right back but will play there to stay in the team, has weaknesses that spring largely from the fact that he is new to RB and is, at heart, a CH. However, he is better than Barton and fitter than Griffin. Again, if we are to challenge, we may need a new RB, but until then, we pretty much have to stick with him. I can't say I subscribe to the view that we should try Distin at LB or O'B or Gary Caldwell at RB because this is essentially avoiding the issue.

-- Anonymous, January 04, 2002

Dougal, I was there, and to repeat what I said elsewhere on this BBS, but in brief, Elliot was pants, again, Hughes not much beter but his track record gives him the benefit of the doubt for a few more games, Distin played well, Dabs less so. I still think we should play Bernard at left back. Would love to see Butt in our team. Never thought I'd say that, but he worked hard, tackled back, and his distribtion was excellent. Ditto Dan's comments on another thread, what the hell are Speed and Lee doing with their 40 yard shots, leaning back as they kick, waving to the top tier. Shurely we're beter than 'hit and hope?' Might as well just give it straight to their goaly for the goal kick. And lazy as he is, Robert would have made all the difference on Wednesday. They were one goal better than us, he would have evened it up, methinks. Still love Bellamy, ditto Dyer. And when Al got the ball he kept it until he was ready to do something with it, not just panic and welly it like his mates. Plus, ditto other comments here, we gave them far too much respect and stood off them, so they could pass. Big mistake. Right, that's that off my chest.

-- Anonymous, January 04, 2002

Terry, it wasn't really Wednesday in isolation that I meant by asking for opinions from those who were at the game. It was whether Wednesday was a blip or symptomatic of patterns that have been developing over a number of games. But thanks for the comments anyway - always good to hear them!

-- Anonymous, January 04, 2002

I've commented in another posting that the formation on Wed ended up as neither nowt nor summat. I think Bobby tried to hedge his bets, granted that maybe it was forced on him.

I think we might have done better if he'd gone completely defensive, hoping for the best, or vice versa. Knowing our defensive options, though, I'd have gone all out attack.

Trying to balance defense and attack didn't work IMO.

-- Anonymous, January 04, 2002

O'Brien must be what? 22 at the most, he has loads of time to learn.

Good defenders aren't naturally skilled at defending, they are coached to do it properly and taught positional play, tactics and general defensive play - Newcastle United have obviously failed at this over the years.

Aaron Hughes has looked pretty decent recently, all he needs for me is a bit more confidence. He got forward well a couple of times against Man U but infuriatingly was scared to take on his man and bottled it with a pass back to Distin.

Left back is becoming a real problem, I wish we still had Didier Domi, at least he was half decent at defending.

Wayne Quinn is no better or worse than Elliott. Neither are really good enough for the Premiership but then again good coaching could change that.

Agree with Mysterious in that Robert would have made a huge difference. If you stay with me on this one... When Robert plays, he generally stays quite wide for most of the game. This undoubtedly means someone in the opposition's side will move left (or right for them) to pick him up. The rest of the team then spread out to cover the gap left. Once this is done there is loads of room for Bellamy and Dyer to make the runs that get us chances, but it was all so tight and we couldn't get through. Dyer played too deep for most of the game and because he was in a free role it wasn't worth picking him up from Man Utd's point of view. Tactically it was all wrong. Bernard on from the start may have reaped more rewards.

However, saying that, if Bellamy's non-existent offside hadn't been given and he'd slotted it away, and Solano's "goal" was given, it could have been different, but if you want a bit of luck, it rarely comes against the one and only "United".

-- Anonymous, January 04, 2002