I'm curious what you all think of staking tomatoes vs. letting them sprawl on the ground. I've staked tomatoes for several years now (especially important in the confined area of my 4'x4' raised beds) but I'm wondering if letting them sprawl on a good mulch of shredded leaves would be better? Would yields be better or worse (or no difference at all?) by letting them sprawl?

Letting them sprawl seems like it would be a LOT less work than constantly tying up the tomatoes as they grow - not to mention pruning out suckers every few days...

What say all of you on this subject?

-- Anonymous, January 01, 2002

Answers

Neither my friend. I will now always use metal posts and a compost cage with the 4 tomato plants on the outside of the cage at 12,3,6 and 9 oclock. We did 16 plants in this fashion last season and yielded over a ton of fruit.

-- Anonymous, January 01, 2002

Jay, I can not seem to make a picture in my mind of what you are talking about. Could you elaborate please??

-- Anonymous, January 01, 2002

Some fella in North Carolina came up with this tomato ring concept. I took it further and used 6 metal fence posts to set my "cage" with a entrance to the center. I have a circular cage of 2x4 inch fence fabric mounted on the posts that is 7 feet in diameter. I till up an area big enough for the cage and a 2 ft wide area on the outside of the fence, then layer compost, peatmoss and manure to a depth of 6 inches per layer and repeat the layering at least twice. Then plant only four plants on the outside of the wire at 12, 3, 6 and 9 o'clock positions. As they grow, tie them off to the fence, Before the season is half over it will look like a giant tomato bush. To water you flood the compost layer in the center and let the compost tea leach out to the plants to keep them fed. This also works for luffa and cucumbers.

-- Anonymous, January 01, 2002

Jay, did you say that you left an opening to get in to the center of your ring? And the mesh on the fence wire is 2" tall by 4" wide, is that correct? How tall are your cages? I started to try this last year. I used a cattle panel, 54" tall and 16' long and formed it into a circle; I'm thinking it was about 5' across but I'm too tired to do the geometry and it's way too cold to go out and measure!! My 'maters drowned out where I had it sitting (lots and lots of rain here in May and June this year) so I ended up replanting it with bird house gourds later.

I had wanted to try it again this year. Do you think it is neccesary to have the opening? My mesh is at least 4" x 4", if not 6"; so I would have no trouble reaching in to get the tomatoes out; since I would be using it for indeterminates, of course; and the ones I am growing are mostly small.

Another question - 16 plants - 4 cages, right? Did you plant 4 of the same variety on each cage, or did you mix them up? What variety yielded best for you on these cages? I plan to plant about 20 different varieties of tomatoes this year and while not all of those are indeterminates; I'm staggered by your yield. I like to have at least 2 to 4 of each variety for control purposes. But I don't need (or want!) a kazillion tomatoes either!

I plan to use fence posts (steel t posts) and minimal pruning for my indeterminates out in the field this year; but would like to try the cages again. I don't do anything to determinates except mulch like crazy around them. This year, I used some of that composted saw dust and manure mix I got from the sale barn. I left it about 6 inches out from the stem of the plant and then formed it in to a big tall circle with the plant in the well, so to speak. Those ones did better than the ones mulched with straw; and contrary to Pop's predictions, there was no problem with rot on the tomatoes.

I'm also thinking about using a couple of hog panels (36" tall) that I've got lying around to make arches over the paths of my SFG. I'll fasten the ends to the boards of the beds which are also 36" and they will be about 6' tall at the center of the arch. I had thought to plant a couple of tomatoes in the end 1' of each bed and train or weave the vines through the panel to cover the arch. What do you folks think about that idea? I would be taking advantage of unused air space, and they wouldn't be sprawling out in the paths like they were last year. At less than 5' tall; I won't have any problem walking under them into the garden; Hubs and Unc might have to duck a little though!

-- Anonymous, January 01, 2002

Polly,

I planted 2 with beefsteak, 2 with earlygirl and betterboy mixed. I put the accesses in the cage because my vines grew all over the inside of the ring, not due to mesh size. Now ya'll give Jim input on his question on staking or not staking. We're getting away from the thread subject. If ya'll want me to, I'll start a thread on tomato rings for you or email me. Jim, my apologies.

-- Anonymous, January 01, 2002

Jim: This coming from an amateur so break out the salt shaker. The first year we had no cages and no stakes and had a bumper crop of nearly perfect tomatos. The second year and last year we didn't keep them off the ground either and lost ALOT to rot where they sat on the ground. That might not have been the case had we used deep straw mulch.

I'm speculating we had such good luck the first year because the weather was nearly perfect whereas the last two years were quite moist and really muggy. Next year they're gonna be staked because the air will have a better chance to circulate around the plants.

-- Anonymous, January 01, 2002

I tell ya Jim I just plant em and let er rip!!! Over the years i've gotten tired of trying to figure out how everything should be done so I have a new way of things called," plant a lot and get some"!!!!! Oooh this talk of tomatoes is gettin me excited.....kirk

-- Anonymous, January 01, 2002

I agree with Kirk! Just plant them and let them go. We all get tons of tomatoes anyways, don't we!!?? I don't know about everyone else, but after canning, freezing and eating tomatoes for three months and longer...I start seeing them in my sleep!

I do think that air circulation plays a big part in whether or not to stake though. When mine are sprawled out on the ground, as long as they're laying on deep mulch with plenty of room between plants I don't really see much difference in production between staked and not staked. I do lose some to slugs, but I don't have tomato hornworms when the plants are laying on the ground either. Go figure!! Oh BTW, staked or not, I do try to keep the sucker shoots somewhat under control, but even they get ahead of me after awhile!

-- Anonymous, January 02, 2002

I have done both and harvest was easier with staked tomatoes. Why don't mine ever look like the one's on the GodFather????? Anyhoo, now I just kind of prop them up sith stakes and tie them but sometimes they still fall over and sprawl. Mulch is imperative to beating the blossom end rot these days with droughty summers in NS. The best was seaweed mulch but the leaves last summer did ok. I will sprinkle kelp meal before laying mulch this year.

-- Anonymous, January 02, 2002

But I LIKE thread drift, Jay! (sniff, sniff) But please do start a new thread if you'd rather; tho I don't think Jim minds. And I did tell him what I was going to do; I think I did, didn't I? I swear I did; something about fence posts and mulch from the sale barn. But I could change my mind about growing them that way if someone shows me a better way! ;o) And it's fun to aggravate Pop by trying something new, too!

Did you see the pics on the scrapbook page of Jim's SFG? It's so pretty, and so neat. That's why I put that in about the arches. I'm not sure how wide his pathways are; and I'm pretty sure that he's too tall to try the arches I was talking about unless he just uses fence wire instead of hog panels since they are only 16' long and thus limit the height of the arch; BUT..if he's going to put in new beds (see 2002 thread)just for 'maters, then I thought he might want to consider going up and over between 'em for added production. I think it would look pretty too - maybe a 'mater in the center and some scarlet runner beans to the outsides.....

Yeah, Kirk; I'm getting spring fever, too!

-- Anonymous, January 02, 2002

Polly, Forget I mentioned it. If its ok with Jim, its ok with me and thread drift doesnt bother me either. I do want to suggest this. Never tried it but what if you use a wire fabric about 6 inches off the ground to let the mater vine sprawl and guarantee air flow to prevent rot. The benefit of air circulation, no ties, no stakes, no straw to contend with. Just a thought. I may try it over a SFG square to check the yield.

-- Anonymous, January 02, 2002

We've done them every which way including loose. On shredded mulch they will probably rot or get slugs or both,if you have wet periods,especially larger ones,so you'll end up with less. If you have the year of the rabbit like we did, the $#@%& waskels will eat all your lower tomatoes as they come ripe.(Yes, first year that ever happened, in something like 30.)

Compost cage fell over for us, eventually.Same with tomato cages.Same with 8' bamboo stakes. Best method for us has been 6'Fence T posts with wire strung between. I forget what it is called now, but alot of commercial growers use this method,only with twine. With determinates I don't have to have such a durable setup.I grow them in pots with a bamboo stake and mulch.But the indeterminates can't grow like trees.Actually when I met Nick and he showed me his garden,I didn't recognize his tomato plants at first, bc the were like 8 foot trees. That's how he likes growing them the best.

-- Anonymous, January 02, 2002

Good question. We made the cages from the concrete reinforcing wire, they blew over. Staking never worked either. So, last year it was the cages with steel field posts and wire sort of anchoring them. It wasn't pretty, but most of them stayed put. What really peeves me, is that I cannot even eat them. And I grow awesomely huge tomato plants. I think I ate 3 Sungold cherry tomatoes last year. My mouth and throat itched and I stayed real close to the bathroom all night. But the two fellas here love them, and they like chili and spaghetti, so I grow them just for them. It must be love.

-- Anonymous, January 02, 2002

Thanks for all the input, guys. I'm still undecided on what route we'll go this summer with the tomatoes.

Our tomato yields have been utterly abysmal these last 3 years (even with hybrid varieties) so I'm wracking my brain trying to figure out what to do differently.

I know the weather we've had these last 3 years hasn't helped the situation. We have *way* too much rain in the spring and then virtually no rain during the summer. Combine that with the increased drainage of the raised beds and we practically have to water every day in the summer and the beds STILL dry out!

That's why the new beds I'm putting in this year aren't raised - we've got enough watering to do with the existing beds and I don't want to add even more work to the schedule. :-(

I imagine one of the other problems with our garden is that the aisles between the beds are bare soil right now (no weed barrier or mulch). When we enter the dry season during the summer, the soil in the aisles *really* dries out (big cracks in the ground). I can imagine that this contributes greatly to the dryness in the raised beds as the water in the beds is sucked right out into the surrounding dry soil. It's definitely something I need to address this year - no more procrastinating!

Designing this garden has definitely been a learning experience. I've learned that I shouldn't have put off putting down a permanent mulch in the aisles and I should have installed the drip irrigation right from the get go.

Oh well, live and learn right?

And Jay, I must say I'm very envious of the yields you've achieved with your tomatoes - very impressive. I may try something like your system but I'll have to modify it to fit in my 4 foot wide beds...

Again, thanks to all of you for the input (and no, I don't mind the thread drift a bit). :-)

-- Anonymous, January 02, 2002

Jim,

We don't stake our tomatoes, as I feel that in our strong southern winds they tend to have more ability to break off and injure the branches. We use two forms of support. (Although I'm tempted to try Jay's in one of our 4' x 4' squares next summer) We use tomatoe cages that are 2-2.5 ft in diameter and a min. of 4 foot high. It works good if you remember to stake the cage to the ground (or they blow over when the tomatoes get wind resisitent) and we also tried a cage platform last year. What this envolves is a 4 x 4 piece of sturdy wire fence with 6" spaces laid on top of openface concrete blocks (and wire them to it). Plant the tomatoes underneath, then when they are tall enough to stick up a 1.5', place the wire on the blocks, wire 'em togather, and pull the plants up through the gaps in the wire. They wander over the fence (keep training them on top) and arent' subject to ground rot. Just make sure you can reach the tomatoes that hang below the wire from the eges. (they tend to hang down sometimes when they are heavy varities). I will do this "support" method more this year, as I felt like the results were better. The tomatoes shaded thier own produce, used less water (due to shaded roots), and my records showed that they actually produced about 15% more than my caged tomatoes.

-- Anonymous, January 05, 2002

For determinate tomatoes (most of the fruit ripes at the same time)that don't run to really large vines I don't always stake. Probably costs me a bit in lost fruit but it balances out with not having to hassle with supporting them. Depend on how much room I have at the time which way I'll go.

With indeterminate tomatoes (fruit ripens over a long period of time) you'll hurt your production pretty bad if you don't support them somehow - stakes, cages, fences, whatever. I've become partial to using a length of field fencing and tieing branches as needed to the wire. Maintaing good airflow through the vines helps with deterring disease.

Lately I've been planting mostly deteriminate paste tomatoes since most of what we use them for is sauce and the like. Three, maybe four indertiminate table tomatoes supply the fresh needs. With just a few they're not much of a bother to keep supported.

........Alan.

-- Anonymous, January 31, 2002