not the champions league but the currency.

what do lot over there think about it?

from here it seems like the right thing to do, i get depressed by the jingoistic god save the queen & the pound crew. sort of a stick your proscuitto up your arse i want some black pudding attitude.

but that's how it looks from here

comments?

-- Anonymous, January 01, 2002

Answers

On the way home last night we got some euro notes out of the cash machine, and this afternoon we went into the shops and got our first euros change. I can see positives in having it and in not having it - it's a signifier of Europe and makes travel easier and competition more transparent, but at the same time it does mean that each country does lose some control over it's economy (although they'd already given up on a lot of that long ago with EMU etc). My idea to make it more acceptable in the UK would be to write it "Euro and cent" but pronounce it "pound & pence" - then it wouldn't sound do bad. The french are refusing to say cent and are saying centime, and the greeks etc are all pronouncing it in their own odd ways too, so we could do the same. Remember we used to write L for pound and d (denarius) but pronounced it pound and penny with the old Lsd, so why not follow the tradition with the euro? We could even call them euro- pound and euro-penny for a couple of months and then drop it like we did with "new pence" in decimalisation.

-- Anonymous, January 01, 2002

We should have been one of the champions of the Euro. I can only cite the experiment carried out a few years ago by one of the tv current affairs programmes.

A reporter was given £100 pounds and travelled round europe doing nothing but change the money into the currency of the country where he presently was.

At the end, when he'd returned to Britain and changed what was left back into sterling, he'd lost about £25. That said it all for me.

-- Anonymous, January 01, 2002

I picked up my first € notes early this morning, having had the coins for a couple of weeks now.

It was a touch chaotic at the railway station, like everyone had become tourists for the day fiddling around with unfamiliar currency, counting and re-counting their change in shiny new coins, staring at the pastel coloured crisp new notes. Shop owners have it worse having to deal (temporarily) with both guilders and euros. But, so far, there are few complaints. There has been endless preperation, adverts, free-eruo kits, and the launch was met by an air of excitement. Most people are in favour and hope the many obvious benefits -price transparency, not changing when crossing the border, easier trade- will outweigh any negatives. Many find it difficult to understand why Britain,Denmark + Sweden have stayed outside.

So far things seem to be going as smoothly as could be expected, but tomorrow will be a bigger test with the shops open (+ the sales).

More significantly its launch, despite endless doom merchants saying it would never happen, is a triumph for those who support closer European integration. As I do despite the currencies dull designs, with symbolic images of non-existence bridges, and fake arches, it was a historical moment to savour. I predict Britain will join within at least 6 years.

-- Anonymous, January 01, 2002

The quality of debate within the UK on the real economic issues associated with monetary union has been pathetic to non-existent. So, in all honesty I can't decide whether it would have been good or bad for the UK. My instinct is that it could have been bad, given the current strength of both our economy and currency.

The reality is that this is an entirely political action, and a huge step down the road towards political union. I was very surprised to hear the EU President, Prodi, openly admit this on TV last night. In this regard, what I vehemently object to is the utterly undemocratic way the EU politicians are pursuing this objective - without seeking the concurrence of the people of Europe.

Whenever there has been a national referendum to endorse anything other than a pure economic association of Nation States, the answer has been a resounding NO. It is entirely wrong to impose a Federal Europe on its people without their open consent - and that imo is what is being pursued by politicians with their own agendas. This is actually a very reckless way of proceeding that could at some point produce a vigorous and highly undesirable reaction.

In conclusion, I'm rather pleased we are not going in at this juncture. We can now watch how it develops and decide on hopefully a more rational basis whether it is our national interest to participate, and indeed when.

I actually hope monetary union goes well, but it is entirely possible that the country's with the weaker economies could get into difficulties - if so, they will hopefully be bailed out by the strong. However, there is only so much bailing out France and particularly Germany could undertake - and frankly I would not wish the UK to be reliant on either. Let's just look and see, and decide in our own time.

-- Anonymous, January 01, 2002

I agree with much of that Clarky, in particular the poor standard of debate on the issue (by politicians and tabloids) and agree that the present stance of the UK is probably the best of all possible worlds at present. See how it develops.

Overall I recognise the loss of economic control is important and the one-size-fits-all interest rate might hurt some Euroland countries. Equally, it appears that globalisation limits the economic control any individual nation can have anyway so in the absence of any decent debate on the subject so far I'd vote for it.

The Geordieland version of the notes should have Jackie Milburn on them IMHO.

-- Anonymous, January 01, 2002

Jingoistic - sums it up beautifully for me. Ive been a currency trader for a few of the worlds major banks for most of my post college life - Americans, Dutch and now Australian. As you can imagine the inception of the 'euro' has affected me more than most, and I have been acclimatised for a few years now.I was working with Ajax's sponsors ABN Amro for most of the conversion from the good old fashioned Ecu making its way for the lumbering 'euro'. From its first announcement to eventual inception into the marketplace on December 31st 1998, there was all kinds of confusion , rhetoric , arguments over control of the European Central bank and 'fudging' beyond all comprehension to the statute qualifications required by the member states. I remember in particular the rapid descent of Irish Interest rates ( which created queues down the street in local building societies for mortgages). The Greeks as you can imgaine didnt fair too well on the qualification stakes either! Well those issues have passed us by and the EUR has descended from trading levels v USD from 1.10 to as below .80 and now we seem to have found a happy level at around .9000. Without trying to bore you all too much with 'trader spake' , what I firmly believe about all this is that this has been a very German idea from the beginning. But politically speaking they put a Dutchman as their figurhead in Duisenberg , and have allowed Trichet from France the next chance as head of the ECB after 'fudging even the operative legislation on that one. Ok - Ill cut to the chase where does this leave the UK, Denmark , Switzerland etc... ?I think the wait and see argument has been well voiced here and has proved to be very wise. Yes we have an Island mentality and yes we have a VERY detached economy from the rest of Europe in terms of growth, interest rate cycle, GDP nad manufacturing v servis=ce industry differentials. maybe what is becoming more prevalent is the lack of desire to be fully united with Europe? A type of Xenophobia bred over the centuries of Roti-boeufs v Frogs v the Krauts ad infinitum ad nauseum. Tony Blair will of course love to be a headline maker and gho down in history as the figurehead who 'took us into the land of milk and honey' Iron man Gordon Brown could even be sensationally holding off his full approval , until he is in office and thus steal the Chancellor made Prime minister who ......... ( fill in your own caption ). The whole thing has been and will contuinue to be a showpiece of grandstanding from each countries heads , with seemingly little reagrd for the domestic economies involved. There probably will never be a situation where we return to legacy currencies, but the legacy of change will ride on as Euroland growth steadily contracts and Europeans begin to feel the pinch necuse of their Austrian , Italian , Greek counterparts who are so far out of Synch they cant cope. Meanwhile plenty of my colleagues have lost their jobs as we went from 13 currencies to 1 ... me, bitter , nahhhhhhh :- )

-- Anonymous, January 01, 2002

Very interesting perspective Sting marra - thanks.

The sickening thing for me is the gutter level of government communication - at the level of "just think how convenient it is now going to be not to have to carry several different currencies when you are travelling in Europe, and having to queue at Bureaux des Changes" (!!).

Sadly, I doubt this level of communication will materially change as we begin to gear up for the promised referendum on what is a critical matter for the future prosperity of the country. However, there is presently a fairly strong "anti" lobby in the country, and the referendum could backfire of those who seek to use this issue to cement their place in history - a point I entirely agree with, although not so far in relation to our own politicians.

-- Anonymous, January 01, 2002

Thing is Clarky, the introduction of notes and coins has no economic effect - it is purely convenience and perhaps transparency of competition without referring to a calculator. The 'in' countries all converted to the euro 3 years ago, when they irrevocably fixed rates. IMO at that stage we were defintely not ready to jump in, and with the benefit of hindsight that decision seems to have been justifiable. The reason for lack of decent factual debate, is that nobody really knows what the effects will be (although a lot of people have opinions). I still think that conceptually it's a decent idea (politically and economically), but that the centralised bureacracy that manages the whole thing has been built on faulty ground as is both inefficient and un-democratic (in so far as it is not fully attributable to the voters). Since our economy is in relatively good shape and we are a prosperous nation, we can afford to be patient.

-- Anonymous, January 02, 2002

I think the everyday usage of Euros in the UK economy will make the reality come home. If the UK wants to remain in the EU then the Euro (awful name for a currency, worse than Francs) will be taken up by the next general election. I can't pretend to fully understand the economic implications, but my view is that if the UK is part of a trading block, then using the same currency makes total sense. This must help our battered exporting businesses and flagging tourist trade. It's always nice to be sat on the sidelines waiting for the 'right time' (or meeting the economic conditions wor Gordon patronisingly refers to). But consider that if the Euro is going to succeed (after all, it won't be allowed to fail as miserably as, say, sterling did with Uncle Norman Lamont) then it must surely be in our interests to join sooner rather than later.

Although I have a romantic heart, and I have reservations about sharing anything in common with the French, Germans and Italians, I would gladly kiss goodbye the good old pound and welcome the curiously designed Euros.

BTW - a few questions / comments. Anyone noticed that the Euro's colour schemes look much like Stevo's Dutch Guilders? All odd colours and more like Bank of Toyland than cash. And haven't they got countries printed on them to placate the nationalists? Also, WRT the coinage, what is displayed on the front and back? Can you still call 'heads' when furiously tossing away with ones new European chums?

-- Anonymous, January 02, 2002

Each nation produces their own coins with the 'heads' sign having national symbols such as monarchs. Thus if Geordie-land ever did break away an image of Wor' Jackie wouldn't be out of the question.

See Euro-Coins

-- Anonymous, January 02, 2002

Ta, mate. I had no idea the Vatican or Monaco minted their own coins. I thought the papacy was cash free ('cept for stamps, in the shape of triangles I seem to recall) and that Monaco used French Francs. Obviously my Euro travels need to be extended :-)

-- Anonymous, January 02, 2002

'But consider that if the Euro is going to succeed (after all, it won't be allowed to fail as miserably as, say, sterling did with Uncle Norman Lamont) then it must surely be in our interests to join sooner rather than later.'

How do you define success, Bobby? What precisely are the economic disadvantages of waiting? They don't seem to have manifested themselves in the last 3 years? Although there are always individual losers, most economists would agree that the UK has 'outperformed' euroland over the last 3 years.

BTW - a few questions / comments. Anyone noticed that the Euro's colour schemes look much like Stevo's Dutch Guilders? All odd colours and more like Bank of Toyland than cash. And haven't they got countries printed on them to placate the nationalists?

Don't think they are country coded, although the initials of the Central Bank are in 5 different variants to accomodate all the languages. They do look like Dutch notes - designed for the visually impaired.

Also, WRT the coinage, what is displayed on the front and back? Can you still call 'heads' when furiously tossing away with ones new European chums?

UEFA will no doubt come up with a directive on this dilemma. The coins have a common side, and a country specific side. I suppose heads is the equivalent of country specific. Shouting 'country' might be the option, especially with emphasis on the first syllable.

-- Anonymous, January 02, 2002

UK economy is doing well, indeed. However, I can't see it being sustainable to maintain the sterling vs Euro divide. Perhaps wrongly, but I see it like this: when Pierre Frenchman wants to buy a shed load of fridges type A1 which Herr Sausagemuncher and Johnny Brit both make, why would Pierre go to the extra bother of currency conversion, when the margins (if any) would be relatively small? Sterling is still very strong, which is why UK manufacturing is still in a mess.

My concerns are that there is a democractic deficit the further away from national parliaments Euroland gets. Economies are basically the domain of markets now, and as I said before Lamont found out to his/our cost that the market decides economic policy. So, the markets want the Euro to facilitate a larger trading block (the USA did this years ago, 'cos the States had different currencies floating around). The govt couldn't force it through or hold a referendum because of an inherent conservatism in the UK. But, like decimalisation, we will eventually fall into line with our Euro buddies.

-- Anonymous, January 02, 2002

I agree Peter that the physical issuing of the new currency simply legitimises (undemocratic) political decisions that were taken some time ago. I also think Bobby is right in saying that we will eventually convert to the Euro. This will probably be by stealth and political deception, because I don't think the majority of the British people will openly embrace the move, at least not in the forseeable future.

However, just because (most of) the rest of the EU is happy to walk blindly into a highly unpredictable economic situation, I see no reason for the UK to willingly adopt such a high-risk strategy - and am in total agreement with us holding back while our economy is performing reasonably well.

Hopefully, this will allow us to ultimately participate with our eyes open and with the benefit of hindsight for the likely problems - that is, in a more planned and structured way.

-- Anonymous, January 02, 2002

'when Pierre Frenchman wants to buy a shed load of fridges type A1 which Herr Sausagemuncher and Johnny Brit both make, why would Pierre go to the extra bother of currency conversion, when the margins (if any) would be relatively small? Sterling is still very strong, which is why UK manufacturing is still in a mess. '

Joining the euro would benefit exports to europe, but at a difficult to guage cost to the economy of being forced to adopt a one-size-fits- all interest rate. The argument to me seems to be whether or not the benefit to european exports of having the same currency is greater than detrimental effects on the economy and exports elsewhere.
Is the currency exchange effect on exports to the eurozone so significant? Why do we and Europe continue to buy so many Japanese and non-euro goods? Also don't forget that half our exports are outside the eurozone anyway. The real cost of curency conversion isn't the exchange cost (at wholesale levels) but the volatility risk and the costs of insuring against that volatility. The euro has actually been a lot more volatile than sterling. Perhaps we should be achieving increased exports to the eurozone and elsewhere by other methods (ie by managing our own economy and insuring sterling does not get too strong). The flexibility we have at the moment at least allows us to weigh up this undoubted objective with all the other considerations, such as inflation etc.

Where I have no qualms about european integration is on a social level. Personally I'm very pro-Europe and we should be working together in a great number of ways, sharing and learning from each other. I just don't see why we need complete economic integration to achieve these common goals. I'm also very wary of over centralisation and the lengthening of the chain of accountability. Human beings have a natural suceptibility to an 'out-of-sight, out-of- mind' mentality, and, myself included, would always try and get away with things if we thought we were not directly accountable.

-- Anonymous, January 02, 2002

What annoys me more than anything is the right wing press. Tony Blair says that should the UK be harming herself by staying out of the single currency, then we would obviously need to consider joining it. This is treated by the Mail and Torygraph as being tantamount to treason. To my mind, it's just pure logic and far less treacherous than wilfully damaging the UK's best interests just because we don't get on with the French (which is essentially what it boils down to).

-- Anonymous, January 02, 2002

I agree totally Dougal, although it's not just the right wing press. The whole issue is made difficult to discuss due to nationalistic and socio political agendas that should not have anything to do with the economic arguments - and for me it is a purely economic argument. Xenophobic distrust whipped up by the press is irreponsible and short sighted. Similarly, the fact that some european countries have organised their welfare and infrastructure systems better than us IMHO largely irrelevant in the argument of the pros and cons of joining the euro - there is absolutely no reason we could not emulate aspects of the socio political models shown on the continent independently from any economic integration - afterall, the countries in questions put these things in place independently before any euro arrived on the scene. If we want socio politiocal reform, we should address these issues in an public forum rather than hide them in the euro issue and hope they can be imposed by stealth.

-- Anonymous, January 02, 2002

Just back from a bit of shopping in the sales here in the euro-zone. Everything seemed to be going quite smoothly. Only the endearingly shabby owner of my local second-hand record store seemed to be struggling, belatedly pricing everything in Euros, and reaching regularly for his calculator. Most shopkeepers I spoke with were coping with out difficulties though in the busier stores there were small queues at the checkouts.

As to earlier comments: the low-quality debate in Britain on the subject is a subject for concern, pro-Euro campaigners are intimidated by the power and ferocity of the euro-sceptic press (Murdoch + Black having their own reasons for wanting Britain outside). Lets get one thing very clear though, the EU IS a political project. It always has been right from the very beginnings with the Schumann plan. British supporters of greater European integration have too often chosen to ignore this and emphasise only the economic elements. Despite sharing Bobby's concerns about the 'democratic deficit' I am very pro-European (surprise, surprise) and would very much like to see the UK join the Euro. However it should do so only if prepared to accept the core of the EU is working towards even greater integration (including, almost inevitably, some level of tax-harmonisation). If that is unacceptable, better to stay out.

For an excellent read on Britain's torturous relations with the EU I can't recommend highly enough Hugo Young: This Blessed Plot. Britain and Europe from Churchill to Blair. A sorry tale of missed opportunities, arrogance and miscalculations.

-- Anonymous, January 02, 2002

I think the problem is that the older generation (like Clarky say) are scared of the change that would be involved in moving to the Euro. The government should recognise this and wait until all the old people are dead and then join.

-- Anonymous, January 02, 2002

That would explain the ongoing NHS crisis.

-- Anonymous, January 02, 2002

Be careful then. Bobby's already expressed his concerns about having to wait too long ;-)

-- Anonymous, January 02, 2002

Macbeth

I think I am just slightly older than Clarky...but I am very pro Europe so it can't just be down to age. If our economy was suffering would we be clamouring to get in. We could wait for ever I doubt that it would make much difference.

Personally I would like to think our illustrious leaders would be much more pro-active in there helping to make policy both for Euros and anything else. I constantly hear people say they do not wish to be ruled by Brussels bureaucrats, I would like to think we were a major part of the Brussel's or anywhere else's bureaucrats. Stop Pussyfooting around and jump in with bothfeet.

Old as I am I would love to see us go for the Europound/pence now.

-- Anonymous, January 02, 2002

As someone who lives in mainland Europe and will probably do so for the forseeable future, I have yet to become convinced in any way that it would be in Britain's best interests to join.

It IS a political project and is inextricably tied to unification on a fundamental level. If it were simply an issue of economic factors, then there might be a case in favour, but at the present moment a weak one IMO.

It will boil down to differences in opinion between those who want to throw in their lot and jump wholeheartedly into a project for a United Europe, and those who do not.

I am in the second camp. It's easy to underestimate how good things are in Britain. Living in Italy and Spain has given me a renewed appreciation of life in Britain. It's certainly not all roses, but it's not as bad as a lot of people and press would have you believe.

My main concern though, is the lack of democracy in the whole process. The current EU is NOT a democratic organ. Even if wholescale restructuring were to take place, it is difficult enough to have democracy on a large scale even when there is more or less total support for the super-state involved (cf. The USA and their recent elections).

Mine will be a 'No' vote I am afraid.

-- Anonymous, January 03, 2002