Animal welfare seems to be a hot topic these days. How does it affect us as homesteaders?

What one farmer considers routine management is considered as abuse by someone else (disbudding or castrating for example). I've even seen articles that say that farm animals ought be be free to chooose their own mate, that breeding shouldn't be planned, and of course Artificial Insemination is frowned upon.

Where do you draw the line between inhumane treatment and necessary procedures that are in the animal's best interest?

How do you think farming should be conducted on a practical level, or do you think it should be discontinued altogether?

Let's discuss our views on this issue ( without resorting to personal attacks). Please note whether or not you have any animals and what type, when you reply.

-- Rebekah (nomail@thanx.net), December 30, 2001

Answers

Yikes!

-- chuck in md (woah@mission4me.com), December 30, 2001.

I have dairy goats and a small flock of ducks. We try to keep our animals as kindly as possible. The ducks have a pond to swim in and are free to roam. We do butcher them, if we didn't there would be an overabundance of drakes, and too many drakes practice their own kind of cruelty. If an animal has to be killed, we try to do it as quickly and humanely as possible, so that the animal doesn't suffer. Some eggs are taken for our consumption, others are left to hatch into ducklings. Some of the ducks do not even try to set on their eggs, so the eggs would just be wasted if we didn't eat them. Is this exploitation of the ducks? I have to go feed our goats now, so will talk about them later.

-- Rebekah (nomail@thanx.net), December 30, 2001.

We have all talked with PETA type folks at the larger livestock shows. Its pretty tough to overtalk anybody militant about anything, and I applaud anybody be it true PETA types or the fundamentalist religious type that walk the walk. Most of it doesn't concern the day to day care of animals though. It would be nice if all kids (baby goats) could be castrated and disbudded with a dose of xylacaine injected under the skin, reality is that it isn't going to happen. It isn't more or less humane to just not do it, because the life of a buckling or wether is a horrid one when sold as a pet. Goats tied to trees and horns stuck in fences are inhumane unless the human is right there to help them. Is it not inhumane to house your bucks on fencelines right next to does who spend hours at the fence teasing them? I think our uddering up for shows, borders on being painful, at the least it is stupid, but it also won't stop. Folks who don't sell for meat, and also don't sell for pets, end up with so many goats, nobody is being taken care of properly. Keeping to many roosters or to many of any male animal, unless housed seperatly is cruel to the female stock. But the whole subject means different things to different people, dependant upon what the bottom line and end product of the stock you have is for. And most countryside folk are homesteaders with outside income, they are not farmers. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), December 30, 2001.

Chuck has the right answer, and I completely agree with him.

Seems to me that it just might be impractical to just quit farming. So perhaps some education on the subject would be of some help. Perhaps the education should come from folks who "done it". Rather than some folks who are 21 years of age and "ain't never", whose most logical comment is "they are so cute" (see my college degree).

-- Ed Copp (OH) (edcopp@yahoo.com), December 30, 2001.

PETA people's problems come from Society not being connected to agriculture anymore. Can you see someone in 1850 America saying we're exploiting animals? Wouldn't have happened, because in that culture you needed animals to survive. In my opinion, we still do, but since each generation is getting further and further away from agriculture, this problem is only going to worsen. Factory farming does not help. To turn this around we need MORE farming---family farms or homesteads, not fewer or to eliminate them. Humans have to relearn that we are animals also, and that our teeth show us to be high on the food chain.

Oops! 4:30! Time for me to go out and Exploit the Cows for evening milking. :)

-- Jennifer L. (Northern NYS) (jlance@nospammail.com), December 30, 2001.

I try to keep in mind the animals instincts. It doesn't, in my opinion, harm an animal to castrate it except for the initial pain. He simply doesnt feel desire anymore. It also means they are less likely to get hurt fighting!The cattle I see in the fields and the feedlots out in this area look happy enough: They can walk around, rest, eat, and hang out with the rest of the herd. However, to lock a chicken in a tiny wire cage with 2 other birds and not enough room for all 3 to sleep at night I DO consider cruel! My own chickens are rather crowded at night in a small house for warmth, but most days they are loose in my fenced yard for a few hours during the warmer part of the day. It's easy and gives them a chance to act like chickens.

-- Terri (hooperterri@prodigy.net), December 30, 2001.

I'm not against farming, but I am against many of the practices employed by large-scale farming. The entire feedlot system is bad on so many levels (ecologically, for the animals, and for the people who consume these obese animals). I won't go into the ranging of cattle in the west and the damage it's done. And I don't think anyone is going to say that battery hens are a good thing. Some of the testing we do on animals really is horrific and unecessary (I'm not saying it all is). I'm not against eating meat or killing animals. I think it's certainly better to eat your excess animals than unload them on someone who may not take care of them properly. And many veterinary practices that do cause pain to the animal are good for it in the long run (disbudding, castrating). I think we need to rethink the economy of farms today and try to get some legistaltion against factory farming. The big-time farmers are so heavily involved with politics that many unecessary regulations put the small farmers out of business. Kudos to those of you that raise your own meat, it definitely beats the alternative! Just my opinion.

-- Elizabeth (Lividia66@birdfoot.com), December 30, 2001.

As someone who grew up on a chicken farm with 30,000 layers, I did not find it cruel. You had to have been there I guess. They had plenty of food & water at all times. It's not like they were smashed in the cages, they could move around. It would be a little hard to free range 30,000 hens now wouldn't it?? Without these types of places, the demand for eggs would never be met. I do not feel castrating, disbudding, or keeping my rabbits in cages is cruel. To me cruel is not feeding them or giving them water or the proper care they need. Just because an animal doesn't have 50 acres to roam doesn't mean it's life is cruel.

-- Wendy (weiskids@yahoo.com), December 30, 2001.

I donate a generous amount of money each year to a variety of animal welfare/activist groups, including PETA. While PETA is far more extreme than I would ever choose to be, it often takes such extremists to get a point across (ei: laying hens in tiny cages, veal calves lying in their own manure in boxed enclosures) I also believe (and am finally back into doing) in raising animals for food. I believe there is a happy medium, where animals can be raised in a clean comfortable environment closely resembling the life which comes naturally to them until their time comes. Yes, we too are animals, and we are right up there in the food chain. We'd like to think we're at the top, and if we're lucky, we are. But we also have brains, compassion and love to guide us. In our egotism, we call it "humanity"....and I believe it should be practiced in all that we do. (off her soap box now) Sue

-- Sue (sulandherb@aol.com), December 30, 2001.

It is true that I have not seen battery hens smooshed together with my own eyes, I am going by the literature that is available. Unfortunately, you can't just walk onto somebodies chicken farm and see for yourself! Then again, the quality of the birds living conditions may vary WIDELY from farmer to farmer!

-- Terri (hooperterri@prodigy.net), December 30, 2001.

The problem that I have with many PETA types is that they're screeching and hollering about animal welfare/animal rights and then they go home to their cute little apartments eat meat for supper, eggs for breakfast, get ready to go to the office wearing animal based makeup/skin care stuff, and expensive leather shoes. What's up with that? If they are so concerned with animal rights--do without ALL animal products, including medications. Stepping off my soapbox....

Abuse is not castrating or disbudding, abuse is not providing, at least, the basics of what an animals needs to survive--food, water, and shelter. Beyond that, I feel, overcrowding, living in filth, not providing proper health care (Vet or home), and neglect are abuse depending on the severity. Contrary to popular belief, I'm not a coddler, but when it's cold, especially if I can't keep the water unfrozen, my horses, goats, and chickens are inside an unheated barn. My old guy's window is still open (everyone of my stalls do have a window) because of his COPD and I may, depending on the temp, go out and lightly blanket him later on tonight. I lug 2 pails of hot water out to dilute to lukewarm to be sure that everyone drinks--lack of water is an impaction colic waiting to happen- if a horse impacts and can't be unblocked with enemas etc.. colic surgery runs around $5000 and I don't have that kind of money. I can't keep the chicken waterers unthawed so they don't have water in front of them from 5pm to 7am, but the water that I give them in the morning is warmed to avoid chilling them because they drink a lot.

I'm not big on factory farming, and I definitely agree with a prior poster that said that the loss of family farms is bringing about the problems with animal rights. People born in the city, or 'burbs and not exposed to farms don't have a clue as to how their food is raised. Animals are just that, they are livestock, including my beloved horses, they do not have rights but people have the responsibility of treating them humanely.

Stacy in NY

-- Stacy (KincoraFarm@aol.com), December 30, 2001.

Oops, forgot to mention that I don't make my living on the homestead. I do occasionally sell horses and hay, and generally make a profit on that, and I just started selling eggs. So, if profit was a big concern I may look at things differently..but I probably wouldn't change too much.

Stacy in NY

-- Stacy (KincoraFarm@aol.com), December 30, 2001.

Chuck, I sure hope those worms are in that can by their own accord...

;-)

On my farm, all the animals have a vote in decision-making. We live by zoocracy. After all, our planning and management skills are all the same...

(Happy New Year, everyone!)

-- sheepish (WA) (the_original_sheepish@Hotmail.com), December 30, 2001.

All animals are our personal responsibility to see that they are not torture or mistreat them. We have to see that they are taken care of if in our care and fed and watered. I see no problem with animals in pens or pasture being able to move around and eat, drink and sleep. We have to remember they are animals, and such they can't pick out their mate, (A bovine single club where they can meet and fall in love, don't think so), They can't be allowed to roam free, destroying crops, gettin killed and maimed in the road ways. When we get chickens again we will pen them up. They will have room to walk around and eat and get water. We will eat the eggs, the chickens and thats the way it is. If we just let them run free they will not last 24 hours. Hawks, owls, coyotes, snakes oppossoms, foxes, you name it will make a meal and not in a humane way. But that is nature, every thing eats something smaller than it. I did not fight my way to the top of the food chain to eat vegetables. Every one has their right to think as they wish as long as they do not try to force their ideas on me or mine by force. Now for that ham and egg omelet with mushrooms and onions the wife has just prepared for supper. As soon as I get the dishes washed I will start a venison roast for tommorrow with leaks, carrots , potatoes, onions in a mushroom sauce that will cook slowly for most of the night. That is my way of eating, my opinion why God made humans and animals. They are differnet.

-- David in North Alabama (bluewaterfarm@mindspring.com), December 30, 2001.

Well, maybe meeting all the egg "needs" wouldn't be such a bad idea. If you cna't free-range 30,000 chickens, then that may be too many to have in one place. We're one of the few countries where people have to beat themselves over the head with willpower, personal trainers, diet aids (which have serious side effects, generally speaking) and so on just to avoid the harm that comes from the freely displayed and cheaply available supply of high-fat, low nutrition food. A few eggs from free range chickens at triple the cost (or higher) would do the country in general much more good (nutritionally, humanitarianly, and ecologically) than a dozen "wussy" commercial eggs at the current low price. When eggs and meat and other "luxury" goods are actually priced at luxury levels, people will think twice about loading up on them when cheaper grains and beans (available more cheaply, and possibly in greater variety, because of the shift in demand for them) are right there. Less food and better quality of life can go hand in hand, especially in such a nutritionally educated country such as America. There is a difference between starvation/malnutrition and eating less. (PS Many overweight folks out there are still malnurished - and even undercaloried - due to the type of foods they eat, and the amount of physical work they do).

-- Soni (thomkilroy@hotmail.com), December 30, 2001.

I grew up on a small ranch in Montana, third generation on that ranch and more before that in other states. We raised or hunted almost everything we ate ... big garden, raised cattle (that was our cash crop, we didn't eat them) ... had chickens, turkeys, pigs and early on we were still doing the field work with horses and we did the cattle work with horses.

I helped with the livestock from the time I could be useful. I never saw an animal abused ... and in fact one of the worst spankings I ever got was when I accidently made my pet goat "cry" when I was trying to break her to pull a cart.

We've had baby chickens, baby pigs and baby calves in the house when they couldn't be kept warm enough outside or needed special treatment. The animals always got cared for ... didn't matter if you were sick or hurt or tired ... you always took care of them, both because they were dependent on you and you were responsible for them and because they were our livelihood ... our only source of income.

We vaccinated, branded, castrated, dehorned as necessary ... and butchered as well ... with as little fuss and upset as possible. It was a part of the job but you did it quickly and as humanely as possible.

Unfortunately, so many people who are involved in the animal rights groups simply do not have the background or knowledge to know what is abuse and what is not ... and also unfortunately, too many of them are not willing to listen to another side of the issue.

-- SFM in KY (timberln@hyperaction.net), December 30, 2001.

One of the reasons there are so few individuals starving to death in this country and other industrialized nations is the utilization of modern farming methods which includes socalled factory farms. It is this very process that allows everyone to be able to buy eggs at the current low prices. If chickens were free ranged in smaller than the 30,000 size farms, labor would be more intensive and the price of eggs would triple or more and fewer people could afford to buy them. So much for the economics of factory farming. Now to the concerns of animal welfare. Anyone with a hint of agrigultural knowledge knows that for any animal to produce efficiently, it cannot be stressed. The PETA trained types would have us believe that caged chickens are stressed. If so, then why do caged chickens outproduce most free range chickens. They obviously are not stressed. To further this argument, I suggest to PETA that if they turn loose all those caged chickens, you would see stress. Previous posters who have commented on the lack of knowledge of the PETA types and their lack of contact with agriculture hit it square on the head. Pardon my temper, but I have a difficult time dealing with stupidity.

-- David A. (mncscott@ak.net), December 30, 2001.

wasn't it Bette Davis who said "Peta, Peta, Peta what a dump" as she flicked a cigarrette ash on the floor?

I don't agree with PETA in most cases. Most people take excellent care of their animals whether they plan on eating them or not. All you have to do is read some of the post and you can see that there are alot of people who make sure that their animals have good housing,food and medical help gee alot of people should be so lucky.

It just doesn't make much sence to invest in an animal to treat it cruely, after all if you did treat it creuly you'd really end up paying for the animal.

Now if PETA wants to go after the medical companies that use animals for research then be my guest. Heck, if they really want to get their point across then trade places with some of those animals.

-- george (bngcrview@aol.com), December 30, 2001.

After all the fuss over how and whether or not you should neuter a tom cat, I'm not sure I want anything to do with this question. BUT I do know that if I die, and come back as an animal, I want to belong to one of you homesteaders!

-- cowgirlone (cowgirlone47@hotmail.com), December 30, 2001.

Here's a very good article on this subject

-- chuck in md (woah@mission4me.com), December 30, 2001.

I agree Cowgirlone. I too want to come back as someones animal. I've always said I would like to be one of my animals because they sure do get fussed over. I wouldn't want to be a chicken though because I've noticed that if there is a fox in the area the chickens tend to go right for the foxes mouth.

-- george (bngcrview@aol.com), December 30, 2001.

Sue, if you donate to these whacko groups like PETA, you don't belong in this group. These people are no better than the Taliban or Al Qeada Terrorists. We go to dog shows and goats shows. It is understood that everyone watches out for everyone else's animals and that the pen areas are never left unattended because these wackos will poison animals because they feel it is better the animal be dead than "exploited". They have been known to release animals from pens and cause general havock. Some of these people don't even think we should have pets because that is "exploitation". You can't reason with them. They are radicals who can only see their ultra extreme views.

We have chickens - free range and spacious coup; goats - bucks and does in separate pastures with generous space and top notch care; dogs and cats - best quality food and good care; pigs - generous housing and good feed until burcher time, which will be done humanely. In the past we have had water fowl, turkeys, steers and sheep. We won't keep an animal unless we can give it humane and dignified treatment: proper shelter, good quality/quantity feed & water, proper vet care, and, if the animal is for consumption, quick and painless butcher.

I believe every animal has a right to the chance to live a content and pain free life. We just had a little buck kid die less than two days after being born. He was presented breach and it took almost an hour to get to the vet and get him delivered. In that time he apparently suffered irreparable internal injuries, but not knowing what was wrong, we spent money (haven't got the bill yet) trying to save him. He would have been castrated and sold for a pet or companion for other livestock. We spent more on vet services to save him than we could have hoped to sell him for, but I will not sit by and watch a helpless baby suffer and die without doing what I can to try to save him.

We can debate all day about whether an animal has a soul or not, but one thing is clear: they are all God's creation and we are stewards of that creation. We must give the animals in our charge a measure of the same compasion and care God gives us. Sometimes that care does involve inflicting temporary pain, but pain is a part of life. Momentary pain from disbudding is not cruelty if done properly. Leaving horns on so that animals can get entrapped or gore each other is just stupid. As for leaving mating to the animals: we have a little six month old doe who has been in heat - out by the fence teasing the bucks. She is too young to have babies. Pregnancy for such a young doe can have bad complications.

Farming should be done as it has always been done: with common sense and honor. We need the animals and the animals need us.

-- Skip in Western WA (sundaycreek@gnrac.net), December 31, 2001.

Click To Learn The Difference Between Animal Rights And Animal Welfare

-- ~Rogo (rogo2020@yahoo.com), December 31, 2001.

Gee Skip, I thought we were voicing our views! Don't expect my farewell letter! Sue

-- Sue (sulandherb@aol.com), December 31, 2001.

I too would not give to groups like PETA.I do not agree with them at all .I do not like animal testing or suffering , but breaking into labs and turning animals free doesn't solve anything.Let an animal run free when it has always been handed its food and water NOW THATS CRUEL.Education is the answer .I would also suggest learning ALOT about whoever you donate to and agreeing with ALL that they do .

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@hotmail.com), December 31, 2001.

FIrst, don't criticize someone for airing their views here like Sue did! She has the right to support whatever group she chooses!

I DO live on a homestead, I was raised in the country, and my husband grew up on a massive cattle and poulty farm. Also, as a reporter for the past 21 years, nearly 22 now, I have regularly visited large cattle and poultry operations and written about them in various capacities....and MOST of what I have seen SHOCKED me! If most people saw how their meat was raised...the meat they buy in the supermarkets....they wouldn't dare eat it!!!

I have been a vegetarian for one year this January. If you eat meat, that is your business. But you should treat your animals humanely. We have 22 bunnies, 25 laying chickens (who will live a life of leisure after they quit laying and who are pampered now), three dogs, and three cats, and will have a breeding pair of goats or sheep by this spring...but not for meat for their wool....

Castrating animals should be thought about in the same light of circumscision for human baby boys....for years they did that without any pain medication because they said the babies couldn't 'feel'....now they've decided those baby boys do indeed feel! So let's be a little more considerate of our animal friends when possible. give them room to move around. give them adequate feed and water. and don't mistreat them.

And NO I am not a liberal. I am extremely conservative in my political and religious views (which generally keeps me in hot water with all my newspaper and other news buddies because because I do often stand up for what I believe.)

-- Suzy in Bama (slgt@yahoo.com), December 31, 2001.

I'm impressed; everyone has stayed calm and considerate! As one of this forum's out-of-the-closet animal rights activists, I find nothing here to argue with, except for a few points about PETA. For one thing, you'd be hard-pressed to find a shred of leather anywhere on a PETA staff-person. The folks in the inner-circle of PETA are hardcore vegan...no leather, no animal-tested products, and certainly no meat or dairy in their diets. Trust me, they wouldn't lie about it. I was jailed in '88 with their founder, Ingrid Newkirk, for hunt disruption in Pennsylvania. I got a life-changing glimpse at what it means to live a cruelty-free lifestyle. Over a decade later, I'm still not there, but am filled with admiration for people who DO walk the walk. It ain't easy. Also, to dispel another common myth about PETA: they are not the ones who release animals from cages at pet & livestock shows. PETA people know that this would cause stress and chaos for the animals. These people may not represent what YOU stand for, but they're not stupid. There's a large percentage of doctors, lawyers, teachers, and other educated people in this movement. It's just common vandals who are opening cages and "freeing" animals in that way. Now, breaking into a lab...that takes a few more smarts. There are many thoughtful, educated people who believe that the end justifies the means in such cases. Put it this way: your average activist (and I'm not talking about the rebellious teen joining up with the "cause of the week") is white, female, college-educated, and earns a good living. We're not the college hippy wanna-be mother earth crowd. Don't underestimate the intelligence or devotion of animal activists...we're creating sweeping changes in the way animals are viewed and treated. I don't know who said it, but the phrase "nothing is so powerful as an idea whose time has come", really does say a lot about our movement.

-- Shannon at Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary (gratacres@aol.com), December 31, 2001.

I really haven't given this subject enough thought to post my opinions yet. BUT, I want to comment how interesting all the various opinions are and how nicely everyone is treating one another. Happy New Year and God bless!

-- Ardie/WI (ardie54965@hotmail.com), December 31, 2001.

Shannon, thanks for replying! I have to agree with you that many of the PETA types are strict vegans. I have a step daughter who is a vegan and very involved in protests, etc, she sent us a subscription to EARTH FIRST! Wow, are these magazines ever an eye opener. The subscribers seem to be mostly like my step daughter, young, college aged hippies who feel very strongly about the environment. They are more radical than I ever would have guessed. I often wonder whether these children ever lived on a farm and actually raised animals, or if they are the offspring of the 60's hippies. ( I have nothing againse hippies, a lot of my friends are such!)

What I don't understand is that my step daughter comes to visit us, and she will not eat our home grown eggs or goat milk. I love the goats the way others do their dogs. Every one of them has a name and most of them will answer to that name if called, and I can tell their voices apart. Disbudding, dehorning, and A.I. are practiced, I don't castrate anymore because the buck kids are butchered or sold for meat by 2 months old. When I hear that horns are natural, and that it is inhumane for me to milk and keep these does, it really puzzles me. I think that the idea is this- natural is always better and kinder. Would it be kinder for the doelings to be bred by their brothers at 3 motnhs old? For does to have their udders gored by other does when fighting? They can even disembowel one another or take out eyes with those horns! Would it be kinder to let any excess milk sit in the udder regardless of her productivity, or whether or not any kids died? And what about kidding season? It may be more natural to just let the does with a stuck kid die, but it could take days, hardly kind. It isn't really the doe's fault if a kid is wedged in there sideways or has it's head twisted backward. Even big strong does cannot birth kids that are presented this way.

And here is one other thing that I cannot comprehend: people who are vegans, but romanticize and glorify large predators.

Please, Shannon or anyone else, if you could share your side of this and what you think about these things I woud be very interested in hearing your point of view on this. Respectfully,

-- Rebekah (nomail@thanx.net), December 31, 2001.

yeah, everyone has been pretty civil to each other and that's great.. but for the guy who said Sue was akin to the Taliban or Al-Qaeda!!! that's ridiculous, outrageous, and make sme immediately disregard his entire comment/response.

-- soonerthanlater (ach@hushmail.com), December 31, 2001.

Hmmmm...not sure about the glorification of large predators. Maybe this is just a personal thing with your step-daughter? I like large predators, too, in the same way I like all other critters. Not that we have any large predators around here, anyway. Strict vegans don't eat any animal products, no matter how "humanely" the animal is treated (such as the milk of pet goats.) The very idea of keeping a domestic animal for the purpose of using it's bodily products is anethma to most vegans. It's a philosophical position, not based on any specific logic. (I'm not saying vegans are't logical. The whole animal rescue/rights movement is not logical in the traditional sense, in today's world. But still, to them, the vegan statement is perfectly reasonable and obvious. Look at it like a religious belief; we don't expect everyone's religious beliefs to be prefectly logical, yet we allow them to practice anyway...) Veganism is a pretty rigorous, strict lifestyle. I can't do it, myself. We eat the eggs from our rescued chickens and ducks, and I'll steal a bit of milk to make cheese if we have a nursing doe. I can't abide the waste of any food. But, other sanctuaries feed the eggs and milk back to other animals on the farm. There's a lot of variation in levels of commitment, beliefs, and practices. One point has been made several times now, that many animal activists have never been on a farm and therefore can't talk about cruelty to farm animals. I disagree with that. You don't have to witness dehorning or non-anesthesia castration to know that it's cruel. And yet, it can be very necessary, for the reasons given above by Rebekah.

Another misconception about animal activists is that we are all Bambi- lovers, with a Disney view of nature. Not so. Nature is it's own slaughterhouse, and it can be unbearable to think of the ways that animals suffer out there, with no human factor at all. I guess my feelings on that are, with all the suffering taking place that we CAN'T do anything about, we are all the more responsible for minimizing the pain & suffering we CAN affect.

-- Shannon at Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary (gratacres@aol.com), December 31, 2001.

I always have to laugh when I see "no animal testing" on products--of course they don't have to, someone else (the large personal products companies) have already done it, and these so-called "natural product" companies are just taking advantage of that fact and jacking up the prices with the "natural" phrase. The ingredient lists are often identical--read them for yourself.

I do agree that if people saw how many farm animals are treated today, they would probably at the very least go lacto-ovo vegetarian. I do not like to see animals used to test tearless shampoo, and other unnecessary items.

The other thing I find puzzling is why the rush to clone entire people and animals. Why not concentrate instead on cloning animal organs and people organs for transplant (not to mention that if the person you are cloning has a bad organ (due to develop cancer at some point, for example), it doesn't make much sense to develop another one that will do the same thing. You wouldn't have the issue of creating entire beings to destroy for someone else's gain if you concentrated on organs instead.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), December 31, 2001.

Rebekah, it seems your step daughter is really committed to what she believes! While I can't see it for myself,I compare it to a devout religion. If it makes her happy, support her! As for the rest, there have been a few comments about "animal rights activists" never having lived the farm/homestead life, but that's really not true. I was brought up on a homestead...we raised our own food, plus rabbits for laboratory use. My mother also thought it was fine to drown unwanted litters of kittens. That was my upbringing. But somewhere along the line, I decided that experimenting on animals for cosmetic purposes and not taking responsibility for the offspring of your own animals was not only wasteful, but inhumane. As with any "cause", groups seem to have a louder voice than individuals. So I supposrt groups like PETA, and the Docs for Ethical Treatment, etc. I have never heard/seen of the glorification of the large animals you speak of, but I would add, that at least before a lion kills its supper, that creature has had the chance to live a free life, and at least has a chance of getting away! So while my critters probably won't have a chance of geting away (except those guinea hens!)I will do all I can to assure they live happy lives while here on earth :)

-- Sue (sulandherb@aol.com), December 31, 2001.

After reading all the post I look over at the three 60 lb plus dogs laying in front of the heater and realize I probably should put them out side because that is where they would be shilvering in the cold. As for testing on animals ok lets get volunteers to have the test done on people. Who wants to sign up. Sorry but if they can find the cure, or just better medicine to help a human do the testing. If no one signs up we will just have to test on animals. If people don't agree they should just refuse to use any drugs or treatment developed thru animal test. Personally I will just keep on using my insulan and life keeping drugs and am thankful for the animals and the scientist that made them possible. Again just my opinion.

-- David in North Alabama (bluewaterfarm@mindspring.com), December 31, 2001.

Sue,I am not attacking you since I think that we all have at least some compassion for animals but, I have seen on P.B.S. where Lions attack Gazzelles that are giving birth. Those baby Gazzelles never even get a chance to take one step before they are in the jaws of a Lion.

-- george (bngcrview@aol.com), December 31, 2001.

The folks in the inner-circle of PETA are hardcore vegan...no leather, no animal-tested products, and certainly no meat or dairy in their diets.

***********

Heehee, guess you missed the great bit in the paper about the staff from peta's main office caught eating at Popeye's Chicken!

-- suzi (sueanneg@aol.com), January 01, 2002.

Hypocritical PETA says, "Eat the Whales. If you don't have the self-discipline to stop eating meat but want to cause as little suffering to animals as possible, may we suggest you leave the other animals alone and ... eat the whales?"

Click For 'Eat The Wales'

"The cat, like the dog, must disappear... We should cut the domestic cat free from our dominance by neutering, neutering, and more neutering, until our pathetic version of the cat ceases to exist." --John Bryant, Fettered Kingdoms: An Examination of A Changing Ethic (Washington, DC: People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA), 1982), p. 15.

PETA Ad Campaign Stoops to New Low
National People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) recently erected billboards in Wisconsin and Pennsylvania that show a photo of former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani with a milk mustache and asks, GOT PROSTATE CANCER? This obnoxious advertisement went on to read, 'Drinking milk contributes to prostate cancer.'

How tacky! Using a man with a life-threatening illness to promote animal-activist propaganda. That's simply disgraceful.

Giuliani threatened to sue PETA over the billboards so the radical group apologized and withdrew the anti-milk campaign.

This anti-milk campaign is getting PETA into more trouble than they bargained for. First the 'Got Beer?�' fiasco with Mothers Against Drunk Driving and now this. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

-- suzi (sueanneg@aol.com), January 01, 2002.

For 36 hours, a friend used his boat to help rescue victims from a flood. Exhausted, he was carrying in a child, the last of the humans, to place her in safety, and was attacked by some peta members. They were yelling at him to drop the child to go an rescue the rats.

-- suzi (sueanneg@aol.com), January 01, 2002.

The Eat The Whales thing is supposed to be tongue-in-cheek, I think, but it is pretty wierd. And yes, PETA has created some stupid campaigns. They can be a real embarrassment to serious activists. Not all animal rights activists are PETA members; I have not been one for years. The flood-child-rats anecdote sounds like one of those stories you hear from your former neighbor's ex-wife's stepson's best friend's sister's old boss, huh?

-- Shannon at Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary (gratacres@aol.com), January 01, 2002.

I always enjoy Shannon's thoughtful posts, but would like to take a moment to comment on a few of her points.

In describing vegans, you said " Look at it like a religious belief; we don't expect everyone's religious beliefs to be prefectly logical, yet we allow them to practice anyway...)". This would be true, were it not for the fact that, like anti-choice adherents, the vegan movement is an ACTIVIST movement, and has as its goal forcing their agenda unto the rest of us. They are getting laws changed (the bird shipping fiasco of this past season, for instance), harrassing people, recruiting young people with lies and distortions to their bizarrre 'lifestyle.' Most of us couldnt care less what people do in their private lives, but when extremists start affecting the rest of our culture, and most assuredly our environment, they have stepped over the line.

You speak of striving for a "cruelty free" life. What does that mean exactly? It should be pretty clear that we on this forum are not factory farmers, and I assume we'd be hard pressed to find many who would support them. (Well maybe except for David, who seems to be defending the truly cruel system of caging egg-layers). I am puzzled by your reference to Ingrid Newkirk as an example of a cruelty-free life. I have found much of what she writes to be mean, judgemental, and just plain wrong. I'm happy to see that you are an exceptional 'animal rightist', in that you admit that the vegan agenda is completely illogical. Is it cruel to eat a hen's eggs? Do they think she emotionally suffers the loss of her potential children? Or that a goat is pained by being milked by human hands, as compared to the battering the udder receives by her own kids? This seems the ultimate in silliness to me, an utter disregard for the natural cycle of life. There can be no logic in such an illogical and unnatural agenda: we must remember always that PETA's goal is to eliminate the use of ALL animals by humans. Period.

You state that PETA does not set animals free; that this is done by 'common vandals.' Well I beg to differ: I have been involved in this anti-PETA work for many years, have spoken to scores of animal activists. They may pass the buck when it comes to liberation activities, but their members are closely alligned with the ALF,etc, and a goodly portion of them are members of both organizations. As I have stated on previous threads, I have yet, ONE TIME to have a conversation with a PETA

In my opinion, accusations of hypocracy by vegans only clouds the issue. The point to me is not whether they walk the walk, the point is that the walk is cracked! The point is that every single claim they make can be easily refuted, whether its about diet and nutrition, environment, or animal abuse. To stop using animal products because the horror of factory farming has become the norm is akin to throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It will only add to the horror, and create new ones.

I found george's idea about the PETA types standing in for the lab animals pretty amusing! Truly would prove that they are no different than critters, wouldn't it? :) Actually, I do not support animal cruelty in the name of 'science' either, but then again I don't support the use of the chemicals/pharmaceuticals they are testing anyway.

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), January 01, 2002.

(sorry, hit submit by accident, continuing my paragraph that ended with PETA)...........activist who can defend their ridiculous positions with any modicum of logic. They almost always change the subject, or repeat the same mantras over and over. Whether they are doctors, lawyers, or candlestick makers was of no notice whatsoever.

Peace,

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), January 01, 2002.

Whats so thoughtfull about shannons posts??? shes one of the most ignorant people on here. im sorry i am being rude but shes a ignorant racists against pit bulls....

just my 2 cents.....

-- David (drollb@aol.com), January 01, 2002.

Ignorant racist against Pittbulls? Haha.....So you're a Pittbull defender too huh? Oh thats too funny.....

Happy new year David!

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), January 01, 2002.

I have been reading this post with great interest. It was only a matter of time before this would turn to bickering and name calling. shame on ya'll! I am so tired of the constant criticism and bickering, we certainly have much more productive things to do. And it really gets me that many folks have left this list because of this very reason! HA! No personal attacks as you asked Rebekah? You asked for a lot there, no offense to you honey, but geeze!

Now.... let me add my 2 cents worth here about this while I am on the topic. I am disguested with all this "Mamby Pamby" crap about how it hurts the environment, people, aniamls, etc. Some folks forget that this is a homesteaders forum and that the very milk, bread, eggs, meat, etc they consume and clothes they wear, ever think about leather coats, wallets, purses, shoes? DUH! Where do ya think that comes from? We definately ain't going around naked and need to stay warm and eat somehow! Oh, forgot about the trees for lumber for our barns and houses too.

Most homesteaders and farmers are responsible as was pointed out and care for their animals and do what is necessary to keep them healthy and productive. Get a grip ya'll and a life to boot! Ya'll got something better to do than name call, pick and fuss over how someone else farms or cares for animals. If ya'll spend this much time hashing over crap like this then your farms must look bad and yer animals awful! Its like this: There are those here who will do what they do, say what they say and ya ain't gonna change their minds no matter what, so put up or shut up!

-- Spectator (noaddy@noaddy.com), January 01, 2002.

Earthmama, you surprise me! Considering your usual liberal position on things, I wonder where your strong anti-vegan sentiment comes from. You are usually one of the more tolerant ones on the forum, and your post surprised me. Re: Ingrid Newkirk and her writing...I haven't read anything written by her for years. I find her dull, yet admire her commitment to the movement. You may be right that she is not a nice person--I wouldn't know. David: "ignorant racist against pitbulls..." dear sir, that line is getting old. If you look in your local phone book, surely you will find a community college (or adult high school) that would teach you to spell, to expand your vocabulary, and maybe even to make sense some day!

-- Shannon at Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary (gratacres@aol.com), January 01, 2002.

After a bit more thought about Earthmama's comments, it occurs to me that one problem she & others might have with vegans (besides not understanding or simply disagreeing with their beliefs) is that vegans DO tend to be very self-righteous and confrontational, especially early in their conversion. And they can be even worse than your other common offenders (anti-smokers, anti-choicers, born- agains, etc.) because the issue (animals) is SO heartfelt, and the suffering we're up against is SO vast and pervasive. Once your eyes are opened to animal rights/veganism/some variation thereof, you have this sudden feeling of extreme urgency, and a powerful need to create awareness in your fellow humans. This often comes across as pushy and overbearing and intolerant, however, to those who have not had the same conversion or eye-opening experience. I have found this to be true in many of the new, young activists that I meet, and I really think it is a phase that they go through, where they are offensive but they believe that the message is SO important, they just don't care. For the record, every single serious animal activist I know is also an activist for human welfare. These people want to create change that will benefit ALL beings, human and animal. We're not so different from "regular people". I mean geez, you think we don't have kids and cars and mortgages? You think we don't want a cure for cancer and peace on earth and a pill to stop migraines? We're not as bizarre as you'd like us to be, actually. One last thing...even us animal activists & vegans have a sense of humor. When one of us points out the failures of another person who aspires to a cruelty-free lifestyle, we call that person the Vegan Police. It's our own way of trying to keep it in perspective, and to remind us that we each have a long way to go on our respective paths, and that there is no purpose served by criticizing someone who is not at the same place.

-- Shannon at Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary (gratacres@aol.com), January 01, 2002.

How about using murderers and child molestors to test products ? I for one would vote yes.

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@hotmail.com), January 01, 2002.

SHANNON SAYS:dear sir, that line is getting old. If you look in your local phone book, surely you will find a community college (or adult high school) that would teach you to spell, to expand your vocabulary, and maybe even to make sense some day!

I SAY: What dont you get? its pretty plain and simple/cut and dry if you ask me.lets see if this is right.....You have a very narrow minded, Uneducated , totally absurd, nazism view of the American Pit Bull Terrier...is that better? Im sorry but i breed these dogs and they are the most misunderstood breeds around because if ignoramous's like you who spit there nonsense as facts.

my 2 cents.....

-- David (drollb@aol.com), January 01, 2002.

Yeah, agree with ya Dave, and while we are on the subject I noticed you refered to an old thread about dog breeds, guess that is where you got the pitbull remark from. So Shannon, if you feel so stroungly about this you should also post to the recent thread about eating dogs/cats. Unless ya already did. Cause honey ya "aint' walking the walk!"

-- animal activist not (hyprocrite@blastya.com), January 01, 2002.

Earthmomma, suggest you check the names and email addresses a little more closely. I am the David supporting factory farming, but not the one in favor of pitbulls. I prefer a more intelligent breed, namely the Border Collie.

-- David A. (mncscott@ak.net), January 02, 2002.

No David they were talking about me. It was from a post a long time ago.

-- David (drollb@aol.com), January 02, 2002.

Deer David Droll: yew will be taken morr seeriosly if yew lern to spel. By the way, I have three pitbulls myself, and have rescued dozens over the years. How many have YOU rescued, Mr. Expert, or do you just run a puppy mill for monster-dogs?

-- Shannon at Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary (gratacres@aol.com), January 02, 2002.

"A rattlesnake loose in the living room tends to end all discussion of animal rights,"

-- ed (edfrhes@aol.com), January 02, 2002.

Earthmama's post summed up my stance on this issue very, very well, thank you for expressing yourself so well.

I was being mildly sarcastic about the PETA eating eggs/meat, but I did see an interview on TV (no idea when or what program) where a reporter was talking to an animal rights activist (I'm NOT positive but I think it was PETA) the ARA (male) went through the rhetoric, over and over, animals are not our slaves, they all should be free...yada yada yada then the reporter told him his shoes were really sharp, he replied, proudly I might add, "oh, yes, Italian leather." The interview was actually quite enjoyable after that...the ARA didn't have much else to say but the reporter sure did.

I have no problem with vegetarians/vegans as long as they don't preach, or try to convert me. Then I start my usual questions, Do you use makeup/skin care products? Are you sure that there are no animal products in them? How are you sure? Do you take medication? On and on eventually they give up, look at me with disgust, and walk away.

Stacy in NY

-- Stacy (KincoraFarm@aol.com), January 02, 2002.

"A rattlesnake loose in the living room tends to end all discussion of animal rights,"

-- ed

Oh, Ed, what an absolutely wonderful quote! Right on the mark and made me smile to boot!

Stacy in NY

-- Stacy (KincoraFarm@aol.com), January 02, 2002.

earthmama also summed up 98% of my feelings, and very well. I had spent the last 4 days trying to come up with those words. Thanks.

The title of this thread mentions 'animal rights'. This is people who feel animals are the equal of humans, and should have the same rights, but none of the obligations, of human beings. Somehow it is proper for a fox to catch, torture, and eat a rabbit, but it is wrong for a human to do so. These people wish to convert the whole world to their way of thinking. Their 'facts' are not right. They pick & choose their facts, using only the ones, however arcane, that support their cause of the week, and ignore any facts that disprove their ideals. Their belief system is fine for them as a religion, but we should be very warry of getting this relgion passed as laws of the country. I firmly believe in seperation of church & state! :) They constantly support PETA, but then claim there is no terrorism involved, and that ALF & other activities aren't their fault, etc. etc..... Check out their publications, web sites, etc. and you will see their call to action plans, throwing red paint at people, how to enter labratories, how to manipulate people. And then, just as Shannon did, deny it all. Predictable. And always, always, always recruting & manipulating people to join in their way, the only one true way, to live. There is no other way allowed...

Abuse - I think all of us are against abuse. We all are against abuse of children, aren't we? But we don't say there should be no more parents because child abuse happens. We ask that the abuse stops.

We are against wife abuse, right? But we don't say there should nevermore be married people or couples. We try to offer help and warnings for those abused and punishment against those that abuse. Right?

We are against animal abuse. But we don't want to end farming, end having pets. We want to help animals that are suffering, we want to stop conditions and practices that harm animals. We don't want to end medicine. We want to make sure that medical tests are done as best as possible to offer good medicine with least suffering to animals & humans. Right?

Peta and other animal rights activists do not see 'abuse' the way you & I see it. They live in a whole different world, where any claim of 'abuse' means that entire world must be ended by any means possible. No farming, no pets, no humans doing anything that will impact an animal in any way. Very odd.

Welfare - This is a different group of people, pretty much most everyone other than animal rights activists, who want to see animals well cared for, and treated like they should be treated, with thought given to them being more than a rock, but less than a human. That their basic needs should be met when humans control their life in some way. This is _not_ how animal rights activists feel about animals.

I'm a farmer, but have attended Howard Lyman seminars, local vegetarian meetings, I have Robbin's silly book, have read little bits of Singer. When 'animal rights' first came up in the 1980's as an 'issue' in the farm press, I thought the farm press was just over-reacting to people who were maybe not thinking too clearly or naive, but were basically nice people. It took me 6 months to a year of my own thinking, research, and above contacts before I realized just what a very strange bunch of people these animal rights activists are, and how twisted their information and methiods are. Giving money to PETA and other such groups is a really bad thing. These groups wish to totally change our way of life, and they do not care about any other human beings. Their goal is to impose their will upon us all by any means neccesary.

Don't take my word for it. Check them out yourselves. :) Use 6 months or a year, take your time. I don't want you to think like me. I want you all to think for _yourselves_.

--->Paul

-- paul (ramblerplm@hotmail.com), January 02, 2002.

Great quote, Ed!! And my apologies for mixing up my Davids; I stand corrected! (This is another reason I like "handles" rather than real names, my peabrain can more easily keep people straight!)

Gee Shannon, I'm sorry if I seemed strident to ya, but this IS absolutely something I too feel strongly about, and something I have done TONS of research on over the years. The whole principle of vegetarianism, as a large movement, never made any sense to me. Consequently I began years ago to read as much as I could on hopefully all sides of this issue, talk to as many people as possible who had opinions about it, so I would know whereof I speak. When I talk to teenage girls, raised their whole lives by vegan parents, who are undergoing a series of painful surgeries because their indequate nutrition has affected their bone structure, giving them deficient dental arches, I tend to be affected.This is not an common occurance, and quite frankly, it pisses me off. I have seen with my own eyes a complete change in personality when teenagers go veggie, how it has affected their emotions, made them angry and depressed, and filled with mood swings. I have conversely seen time and time again the reverse, a return to normal mental/emotional health (as far as can be expected with teenagers anyway!) when a balanced, natural diet was resumed or undertaken. I am not saying it is impossible to be healthy as an ovo-lacto veggie, but it does take an awful lot of study and hard work, which it seems a huge percentage of young veggies do not make the effort to do.

When I read the balderdash about vegetarianism being better for the environment, I really go nuts. There is absolutely no truth whatsoever to this arguement, and to me, who loves the Earth as I do, vegetarianism on a grand scale would be a planetary disaster even beyond what we have created thus far.

Obviously its a personal choice what one chooses to eat, but claiming that there is something superior about choosing to forego animal products is, in my opinion, arrogant and baseless.

I am actually in the process of working on a book which is a refutation to the popular "Teens Guide To Going Vegetarian". I feel my planet calling.

Shannon, you say " For the record, every single serious animal activist I know is also an activist for human welfare." Okay, I dont doubt that this has been your experience. But just out of curiousity, do you know what Ingrid Newkirk does for humans, besides equate them to rats, and work toward the eventual goal of taking away all their contact with their loving pets?

Oh, and David Droll, I am not affected in the least by your spelling. Bad spelling does not deplete a good arguement for me, but name calling most certainly does.

Peace,

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), January 02, 2002.

My second paragraph had an unfortunate typo.......it should have read " this is NOT an uncommon occurance..."

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), January 02, 2002.

SHANNON SAYS:Deer David Droll: yew will be taken morr seeriosly if yew lern to spel. By the way, I have three pitbulls myself, and have rescued dozens over the years. How many have YOU rescued, Mr. Expert, or do you just run a puppy mill for monster-dogs?

I SAY: Gee golly oh mye you gats ma good der ahuhuhuh...Seriously What does my spelling have to do with anything? You know the funny thing is its not my spelling thats bad just my pronunciations. You know what a racists first argument usually is when confronted...? Usually they say "I'm no racist i have so and so as friends" remind you of anyone??? Anyways on to your kwestons(hehehe)YES I have rescued numerous Dogs in fact I just placed a very wonderfull blue male who I ended up getting hip surgery for before I placed him.I didn't get a dime back but thats no problem as he is spoiled to death by his new owners. And for the record have you ever heard of the ADOA or the EBA??? Well I am a devoted member to both and we have had to fight stupid idiotic legislation put together by animal rights freaks like peta numerous times. Sooooo little miss prissy da's thiss satersfye yer needs ma'am uhuhuhuhuh....

my 2 cents....

-- David (drollb@aol.com), January 02, 2002.

Wow! I'm really happy that I haven't had the time to read this thread well. It starts out with nice, various thoughts and comments and ends up with some of you gravitating back to the name calling and bickering from last year. I realize that this is a sensitive subject, but couldn't some of you respond in the manner that you'd wish to be responded to?

I'm not coming back to this thread...hopefully it comes to an and...like so many other good ones.

-- Ardie /WI (ardie54965@hotmail.com), January 02, 2002.

Earthmama, are you saying that an ovo-lacto vegetarian diet couldn't be brought up to normal healthy standards by simply taking a multi-vitamin daily? It has always been my understanding from everything I've read that it is really just that simple, provided the vegetarian diet is balanced. I do agree that going vegan is not healthy, but (and I guess this would depend a lot on the age of the person and their learning of the term) "vegetarian" has always included ovo-lacto, unless preceded by the term "strict". I say that because most vegetarian menus in restaurants and hospitals include dairy and egg products..

I do disagree with you about vegetarianism not being good for the planet. I remember reading in one of Tony Robbins' books some information about how it takes much less land to keep dairy cattle as opposed to meat cattle. That to me is a good reason to at least consider cutting down on meat, and maybe in that way get some of that land back into trees (and perhaps industrial hemp, so we don't have to buy hemp products from other countries).

As an aside, people who are "meat and potatoes" types are hardly eating a balanced diet either.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), January 02, 2002.

Yes, it certainly has deteriorated, hasn't it? I know what I know, and I sleep well at night, believing that the Gods are pleased with me and the choices I make concerning animals. Guess that's what it boils down to for each of us, right? Rebekah asked a question, and I felt I had an answer to offer, and that's about it. One thing I might point out is that the hostile messages were not started by me, nor was the name-calling, nor was the slamming of personal beliefs. I was a good little forum participant, and then y'all got nasty. Sorry for the bad experiences you've had with folks who purport to be animal rights activists; all the ones I know are actually really nice people. But I've been at this long enough to know that trying to explain or answer a question on this topic is pretty much futile when your audience already knows all the answers, and is only listening in hopes of finding some tidbit to discredit you with. I'll not cast my pearls before swine any more. Enjoy your flesh diet, and all the goodies that go along with it about twenty years down the road.

-- Shannon at Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary (gratacres@aol.com), January 02, 2002.

I think the name calling started when the subject of pit bulls came up. Pit Bulls have nothing to do with this thread, so let's drop it, start a special thread for them if desired.

About dairy cattle as opposed to beef cattle, dairy products are why I don't think it is practical to stop meat eating on a world wide scale, or even on a nationwide scale. Too many mothers cannot breast feed their babies, a lot of them don't even try, and many of these babies do not tolerate soy formulas. Babies are made to drink animal milk, preferably from their mothers if possible. If someone can tell of a good way to have dairy animals without killiing the extra male calves, kids and lambs, while still being reasonable and practical, I'd be interested to hear of it. The fact is that when you have dairy animals, the extra males have to go somewhere, they can't all stay around the farm and be treated to a life-long paradise. I still CANNOT understand why it is so wonderful for a cougar or a grizzly bear to take down a deer but awful for us to kill and eat meat.

Another thought- animal husbandry has been around almost as long as humans have. Goats are thought to have been the first domesticated animal. If meat eating is going to end the world, it should have happened a long time ago. I do understand that present methods of raising meat could be more sustainable. Dosing them up with antibiotics just to keep them alive- that'll hurt us just as much as the animals. Cramming them into little teeny spaces- overcrowding usually leads to disease, whether or not the animals care about it.

for those who think animal farming should stop entirely, what should be done with all the farm animals? Should they be pets, neutered and kept in comfort until they die from old age? Should there be a mass slaughter, as PETA seemed to think with the Foot and Mouth being such a boon for the animals? Should we just turn them loose and let them fend for themselves or starve to death? The EARTH FIRST magazines that we get glorify such behavior as driving down highways cutting fences so that the animals can escape from their 'concentration camps'. Many of the cattle are on large ranges so the rancher may not know for weeks or more. Goats go feral pretty well, but what about sheep? And how do you think people should be prevented from raising animals or hunting deer?

-- Rebekah (nomail@thanx.net), January 02, 2002.

Rebekah, I don't think it is so much that many mothers truly can't breastfeed, it is that many of them give up without really trying in the first place, or are tricked into believing that formula of any kind is the way to go, or it is a convenience thing if they are working or really just don't want to breastfeed. I don't have any statistics on how many babies can't drink soymilk, so can't comment on that. People didn't always have cows for baby milk--you used to have "wet nurses", and I think that today there are human milk banks (at least I've heard there are), though I don't know how much it costs for that service.

Didn't think what to do about the extra males, maybe they could be let out onto the wildlife preserves for the lions and such to eat? I do not like sport hunting (that is, just to kill something and mount the head on the wall), but I do know people who hunt because they are low- income and can't afford groceries, and if some big animal gets hit by a car, well, they will eat that too. Also, if for some reason there are too many of something to support the herd (like deer) through the lean times in winter, I can understand allowing hunting of those animals if they are going to be eaten (say the sport hunter shoots it and perhaps the meat is given to the poor).

Just a thought.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), January 02, 2002.

Frankly, I have yet to run across a teenager who does not act sullen, depressed and have frequent mood swings, I thought that was entirely "normal" for someone going through such hormonal fluxes!!!

Basically, I do not eat meat for ethical reasons, as a Buddhist I do not think that the divine Creator intended for us to be "special" in any way compared to other mammalian species members, so to eat other members of the mammal family would make me akin to also condoning cannabalism, which I find highly offensive and undesirable, so to NOT be a hypocrite, I don't eat mammalian meat. Members of the bird family are eaten occasionally, and I raise chickens for their eggs only, which I also eat, usually daily. The chickens are kept in a large hen house with plenty of windows, fresh air, and fresh litter in which to dust bath and act like a "chicken" in, 30 x 20 makes a nice large home for 24 chickens, and they get as natural as a diet is possible considering the seasons.

In America, one out of five people die of heart disease brought on by over-consumption of meat and dairy products, this in itself should explain the reason for alternative diet practices, the American way of eating is rapidly killing us off, that is a big "hint" to me!!!

-- Annie Miller in SE OH (annie@1st.net), January 02, 2002.

This will be my very last post on this issue. I was going to send it in a private e-mail to Earthmama, but on second thought, I realized that there are several people who've posted on this thread who might also appreciate the information in the book. The book is called "The Sexual Politics of Meat", and the author is Carol Adams. It has nothing to do with sex. The book gives a feminist perspective on meat consumption. Anyone who considers themselves to be truly educated about animal rights & vegetarianism needs to read this book, whether you support the cause or not. Earthmama, you especially should read it, since you pride yourself on the extensive research you've done on the topic already. This book would really round out that research, and it also discusses other issues that I suspect are important to you, specifically those pertaining to the oppression of women, gays, and other minorities. The book is available through Amazon, and I will also loan out my copy to anyone who's willing to promise me they'll send it back.

-- Shannon at Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary (gratacres@aol.com), January 02, 2002.

Thanks Shannon; I have the book in my personal library. If you would like to discuss any of the issues covered in this or any other book, I would be happy to participate.

Annie, your statement "In America, one out of five people die of heart disease brought on by over-consumption of meat and dairy products" is indeed the corporate party line, but that does not make it a fact whatsoever. I firmly absolutely disagree with it. Although there are negative health factors connected to partaking of factory farm animal products, this in no way leads me to the conclusion that it is animal protein/fat that is to blame. It is the way it is produced that gives us a harmful product. Grass-raised, naturally produced meat/dairy is a healthy, super-nutritous food source, containing huge amounts of cancer-fighters, heart disease deterents, esential fatty acids necesarry to good mental health, many of which have no substitute in the vegetable world, and have to be replaced by those who eat no/few animal products with unnatural, man-made supplements. That is fine, its your choice, I have no interest in telling you how to eat, and I know you are happy with your new way of eating. Just want to be clear that the campaigns over the past 35 years against animal foods by the institutions have lots of other sides, lots of distortions and even cover-ups. Profit and power are very powerful motives for brainwashing the public, and they have done an excellent job.

Peace,

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), January 02, 2002.

OH, and Annie, I know gobs of happy, well-adjusted teenagers, including my own two. Another stereotype by the American media machine!

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), January 02, 2002.

Wow was I ever glad to hear that would be Shannons last post! What a mean spirited person that sounds like. Too bad she can't be as kind to humans as she professes to be to animals. Sounds whacky to me. Cut the animal rights crap people. Animals don't think like humans, aren't like humans and don't have the same rights. They are to be cared for by humans and that's that. They should always be cared for humanely however, and any decent human being should do that for their animal friends. I thought this was supposed to be a forum for homesteaders not for bored animal rights kooks. I think I'll move on.

-- Marvelous (schnauzee@mstar2.net), January 03, 2002.

I know you believe that grass fed beef is "better" for you than grain feed beef, and I tend to agree with that premise Earthmamma, but, can deny that 55% of Americans are extremely overweight and that puts them at increased risk for heart disease as well as diabetes?

To tell these fat Americans to eat something that still is at least 20% saturated fat is not a good recommendation, in my opinion. These folks need to severely limit their fat intake to get their cholesterol down so they are not a heart attack waiting to happen. Inaurance company figures, CDC figures, and my own family history confirms again and again that, indeed we are dying off at that 20% rate of heart disease. Where do you get your figures from?

-- Annie Miller in SE OH (annie@1st.net), January 03, 2002.

OK- here is my question- What is humane and what is not? How do we define humane? By whether or not it is necessary? Our reason for doing it? As an example, disbudding hurts but is not cruel because it is necessary to avoid further pain down the road, but if a couple sadistic weirdos were just poking an animal with a red hot iron for fuin, that would definitely be cruelty and abuse.

By the way, I have three step children, the oldest is a vegan, second is a definite meat lover, third was raised vegetarian from birth and still eats very little meat. The first two have been model teenagers, except that the oldest one, a daughter, went therough a phase where she would fast, sometimes for several days. This scared us. Then she went to a vegan diet, at least she is eating something! The second one, a boy, has been as gentle and good as a young man could possible be, and that is the honest truth. The daughters form of rebellion, aside from questioing her parent's values (normal), was to cut her hair about 1/2" long. The son's, aside from trying to beat his Dad at chess and video games, was to grow his hair long. The third child, who has been veggie for his entire life, with small tastes of meat very occasionally, has caused us the most worrying, not really sure if it has to do with diet or not. But food is a major issue with him, if he's mad at you, he won't eat the food. There may be other explanations for his behavior, but Earthmama's comments have definitely made me think about this in a different light.

-- Rebekah (nomail@thanx.net), January 03, 2002.

It isn't meat that has caused the epidemic of obesity in this country, with accompanying health problems such as diabetes and heart disease. It is excessive consumption of carbohydrates -- sugars, in any form. And most meat/milk animals can be raised on land that isn't suitable for tilled crops -- we have fourteen acres of New England rocks and it would be impossible to grow grain on it, we have a hard time getting enough land worked up for a decent garden. Furthermore, there is a large and growing body of evidence pointing to overconsumption of grains as at least a significant contributing factor in auto-immune diseases -- a list of about 150 diseases ranging from minor annoyances to fatal illnesses. In my own family we have at least four cases of celiac disease, plus autism, eczema, lupus, and vitiligo -- all auto-immune diseases.

The real goal of groups like PETA and ALF is not only the total elimination of all domestic animals, but also the elimination of the human race.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), January 03, 2002.

I agree with Kathleen about obesity not being caused by consuming meat. There are overweight vegetarians too. Just my observation.

-- cowgirlone (cowgirlone47@hotmail.com), January 03, 2002.

I didn't imply that eating meat makes people fat, I said telling already fat people to continue eating more high fat meat makes no sense.

People are fat because they eat more than they burn daily, it's as simple as that. If you don't want to exercise, you better eat very little of ANYTHING, least of all high caloric density foods filled with fat and empty carbohydrates.

-- Annie Miller in SE OH (annie@1st.net), January 04, 2002.

Hey Y'all, Earthmama SELLS BEEF FOR A LIVING. What would you expect her to say? Duh.

-- Korona (ktipen@excite.com), January 04, 2002.

Dear Korona, actually I don't sell for beef for a living any more, although I did sell organic meat for 12 years. And I quite agree with you in asking what else would someone expect me to say! I could never be involved in the sale of a product I didnt wholeheartedly believe in.

Peace,

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), January 04, 2002.

Hi y'all, been reading this thread and have been thinking on it for a couple days. So, I have a question for PETA members or other vegetarians and I'm asking this seriously....First, I think we can all agree that all living things are made up of cells, so isn't it not true that plants are made of cells, convert oxygen into carbon dioxide and also have the power to reproduce? Why is it ok to eat a seed which is the reproduction mechanism of a plant and it's not ok to eat an egg? A seed is a very complex organism with DNA, not much unlike an egg. This might sound simple or even silly, but to those who raise their own meat or raise chickens for eggs, Peta doesn't make much sense to them. Anyone can adjust the facts for their own agenda, and how would the vegetarians feel if their was an organization against the cruelty of plants?

-- Annie (mistletoe6@earthlink.net), January 06, 2002.