Chinese Leica copiesgreenspun.com : LUSENET : Leica Photography : One Thread |
There were several Chinese Leica copies The earliest Chinese Leica copy was LaLei 35mm camera made by Beijing DaLei Camera, based on Leica II.In 1958, Shanghai Camera was founded, its first products were Shanghai 58 Model I and model II, all copy of Leica IIIb
The lens was 50mm/f3.5, designed by Shenyang Optical Design Department of Academy of Science Sinica.
Later models of Shanghai Leica copy were equipped with 50mm/f3.5 lens made by Carl Zeiss Jena in former East Germany
A few years ago, Chinese Leica copy was listed in Shutterbug for $700
All these Chinese Leica copies were quite well made, and are collector items in China.
The top of the line Chinese Leica copies are M3 and M4 copies --- the Hongqi 35 cameras, not a hot collector item in China Chinese Leica
-- martin tai (martin.tai@sympatico.ca), December 30, 2001
Hongqi M3 M4 Leica copies are the most sought after collector item in China.
-- martin tai (martin.tai@sympatico.ca), December 30, 2001.
Chiang Ching, the wife of Mao Tsetung, ordered the Red Fag 20 (a loose copy of the M 4) at the Nr. 2 Shanghai camera company. With it came a Summilux 50 mm lenscopy as standard lens. There were also LUX 35 and CRON 90 mm lenscopies. About 200 samples were produced between 1971 and 1977.The vf had frames for 35, 50 and 90 mm lenses, similar to the M 2.
Source: 300 LEICA copies by P.-H. Pont & J.-L. Princelle, Fotosaga, France., 1990.
Best wishes
-- K. G. Wolf (k.g.wolf@web.de), December 30, 2001.
As the story goes, the Hongqi (Pinyin for "Red Flag") 20 camera, the only known Leica-M copy with Leica M mount (as far as I know), was mainly issued to Chinese reporters. That was during the Cultural Revolution, and photography as a hobby was socially and politically unacceptable because it was deemed a "counter-revolutionary" pursuit of the bourgeoisie. Besides, camera owners could be taken as spies in those insane, xenophobic years. Those who had reason to own and use cameras, such as journalists, naturally put their equipment to heavy use, which is why so few of the Leica-copy cameras have survived. Those that did survive were mostly snapped up by Japanese collectors when China opened up in the early 1980s. Interestingly, back in 1999, a guy posted on the LUG forum saying that he knew a Chinese source for mint Red Flag 20s complete with the full set of three lenses. See the post here: http://mejac.palo- alto.ca.us/leica-users/v07/msg03761.html.
-- Hoyin Lee (leehoyin@hutchcity.com), December 30, 2001.
The elusive Red Flag 20, Chinese copy of the M4, see it here (text in Japanese only): http://cameraguild.c o.jp/~yun/redflag.html.
-- Hoyin Lee (leehoyin@hutchcity.com), December 31, 2001.
The Red Flag 20 camera was made by Shanghai Camera Factory, the predecessor of today's Seagull Camera Company. The lenses shown on the Japanese webpage linked in my post above are those for the Red Flag 20 camera, and they appear to be copies of the Summilux 35mm f/1.4 (bottom left of page) and the Canadian made version (second version) of the Summicron 90mm f/2 (bottom right). The standard lens mounted on the camera (first picture, top of page) looks like a copy of the first version of the Summilux 50mm f/1.4.
-- Hoyin Lee (leehoyin@hutchcity.com), December 31, 2001.
Sorry for hogging the thread. Martin's post has stirred my enthusiasm to share what little I know about my pet curiosity, the often heard but rarely seen Red Flag 20, which is rather like the Loch Ness Monster of collectible 35mm cameras (I don't collect cameras, just like to read about them)! Anyway, if anyone would like to learn more about classic Chinese cameras, there's the book Cameras of the People's Republic of China, or read this article here (in traditional Chinese only): http://www.npc.org. hk/old/article/art16.htm.
-- Hoyin Lee (leehoyin@hutchcity.com), December 31, 2001.
Actually Madam Jiang Ching was an avid photographer herself, her favouite camera was Hasselblad. During the Cultural Revolution, her photo works were published on the front pages of People's Daily. One of her famous photograph was photo of Chairman Mao at LuShan Mountain, 庐 山, which inspired Chairman Mao's poem "The Fairy Cave of LuShan"
-- martin tai (martin.tai@capcanada.com), December 31, 2001.
Madame Jiang Qing 江 青 started out as an actress Lan Ping 兰 苹 in Shanghai, one of her early movie was "Wanglaowu" 王 老 五, story about an unmarried man-- since then, Wanglaowu represent man who has hard times finding a wife.Wanglaowu by Lan Ping
-- martin tai (martin.tai@capcanada.com), December 31, 2001.
There are several Chiang Ching's photographic works in Roxane Witke's book "Comrade Chiang Ch'ing", Little, Brown and Company, 1977.
- Portrait of Chairman Mao
- Han Yan Peak at Lu Shan
- Study of poenies
- Coal Hill
- Fairy Cave of Lu Shan
Witke wrote:" Her landscape composition conforms to high tradition -- close to the style of the twelfth century painter of Sung dynasty Ma Yuan."
-- martin tai (martin.tai@sympatico.ca), January 01, 2002.
For anyone still interested in following the story on the Red Flag 20 camera, my friend Alex (who's still trying to figure out how to post to this forum!) told me that the camera with the set of three lenses were available some 20 years ago at the now defunct China Department Store at Causeway Bay, Hong Kong (the one at the end of Sugar Street, across from the entrance Victoria Park) for HK$ 25,000. I personally suspect that there are more Red Flag 20s going around than the reputed 200 units, which could well be the official figure, but the factory could have made more on the side and exported them (note: this is just my own speculaton).Alex also mentioned that several months ago, probably in September, a Red Flag 20 with the lux-copy lens turned up on eBay. The seller was a Chinese from Toronto, and he was asking for US$ $10,000! Naturally, there was no taker. According to The Blue Book: An Illustrated Guide with Prices for Classic & Collectible Cameras, the complete set of Red Flag 20 has gone down from US$ 10,000 in the 1980s to today's about US$ 3,000 for the body and about US$ 1,000 for each of the lenses.
-- Hoyin Lee (leehoyin@hutchcity.com), January 02, 2002.
(Geez, I can't seem to let go of this thread!)OK, I know I'm beginning to get on people's nerves, so I'll promise that this will be my last post on this thread.
Well, this is too good a story not to be told, about Mao's wife Jiang Qing and her favourite camera, a Hasselblad. This is from someone who doesn't want to be identified. It's said that Mrs. Mao dropped her Hassey in the water one day and, out of patriotic pride (but more probably out of political necessity) refused to send it back to Sweden for repair. Of all the zillions of people in the empire of China, someone ought to be able to fix the damn thing, she must have thought. And someone did, and my mystery source told me that that someone was found in Hong Kong (which was British territory at that time, hmmm, interesting; here's a potential script for a movie), repairing cameras on Stanley Street (and, if I think I know who he is, his repair service is still around!).
Incidentally, in around 1970, Mrs. Mao ordered the Shanghai Camera Factory (note: not "Shanghai Camera Company"--companies didn't exist in China during the Cultural Revolution) to make copies of her favourite camera, the Hasselblad 500. The factory dutifully churned out about 50 units, which were named Dongfeng ("East Wind") each came with three lenses: a normal 80mm f/2.8 (with an amazing maximum shutter speed of 1/1000th second on the lens shutter); a wide-angle 50mm f/4; and a telephoto 150mm f/4.
-- Hoyin Lee (leehoyin@hutchcity.com), January 02, 2002.
Another question for the chinese leica experts:It may seem a bit offtopic, but I have a chinese 6*6 MF SLR, the 'GREAT WALL DF-4' with a M39 mount (aka Leica Screw Mount). Unfortunately the LSM lenses don't fit - does anyone have an idea which lenses do and which exist ? I just have a 90/3.5, which is uncoupled and therefore useless for my Leica. Do the Zenith SLR M39 lenses fit ?
-- Kai Blanke (kai.blanke@iname.com), January 02, 2002.
Kai,I have the Great Wall 6x6 MF SLR with a 90mm f3.5 Great Wall coated lens. I doubt Leica screwmount lens has enough coverage for 6x6 frame.
Then why this SLR uses M39 mount ? In the instruction, it said that the M39 lens can be used on M39 mount enlarger to double as an enlarging lens for 6x6 film.
-- martin tai (martin.tai@capcanada.com), January 02, 2002.
Roxane Witke the author of the book "Comrade Chiang Ch'ing", Little, Brown and Company, 1977, included two pictures she took of Madam Chiang Ching composing with her Hasselbland camera at Zhong Nan Hai
-- martin tai (martin.tai@capcanada.com), January 02, 2002.
Martin,thanks for the information. Unfortunately I don't have any instructions for the DF-4, but who needs them ? The camera is pretty straightforward. But I still hope for another lens.
But LSM lenses (I tried it with a russian fed 50/2.8) don't fit, the rangefinder coupling prevents setting the distance to more than about 10 inches. Maybe I cut off a piece of the rangefinder coupling sometime to try, fed lenses are not really expensive.
BTW, the really seem to cover the whole 6*6 field, but are calculated for a much smaller lens-to-film distance than the DF-4 has.
-- Kai Blanke (kai.blanke@iname.com), January 03, 2002.
Kai, you have a good point, the screwmount Leica lenses were meant to be used on camera with 35mm cameras. Using Leica lenses on the Great Wall, even if they fit, there is no way to focus at infinity---that is, even if the Leica lens is set at infinity, only very close object can form sharp image on the Great Wall screen/film plane. Let use take an example. Suppose you successfully mount a Leitz Elmar 50mm/3.5 lens on the M39 mount Great Wall SLR. Since the Great Wall has a flange to film plane distance of about 90mm, the Elmar lens acts as a macro lens on it, with the lens at infinity, the Elmar only focuses to 112.5 mm on the Great Wall SLR The extra distance of film plane to flange of 6x6 Great Wall is like adding a bellow to the Leitz Elmar
-- martin tai (martin.tai@capcanada.com), January 03, 2002.
Conversely, the M39 Great Wall 90mm/f3.5 lens cannot directly mount on to Leica screwmount cameras.A bellow or extension tube of about 40mm is needed.
-- martin tai (martin.tai@capcanada.com), January 03, 2002.
Shanghai 58-I first introduced in 1958, only 2000 were made. It was a close copy of Leica IIIb.
It was about $20 in 1958, by 1998 it was quoted as $700 in Shutterbug.
The current quote from the web is $1500-$2000, almost 100 fold increase in price.
I regret I didn't bought a Shanghai 58- I camera, instead I bought only the case
-- martin tai (martin.tai@capcanada.com), March 02, 2002.
Shanghai 58-I
-- martin tai (martin.tai@capcanada.com), March 02, 2002.
Shanghai 58-I
-- martin tai (martin.tai@capcanada.com), March 02, 2002.
Strange. I typed in only one ~~, somehow the system substitude it with ~~ ~~ !
-- martin tai (martin.tai@capcanada.com), March 02, 2002.
Dongfeng SLR
-- martin tai (martin.tai@capcanada.com), March 02, 2002.
Shanghai 58-II
The combined viewfinder/rangefinder looks a bit like M3, or its predecessor Leica IV, except Leica IV had two oblong windows at front( one large,one smaller ); Shanghai 58-II has one large oblong window, one tiny round window.(M3 has three windows )
-- martin tai (martin.tai@capcanada.com), March 02, 2002.
I check the Great Wall DF M39 lens mount.It is not really a M39 mount.
Real M39 mount has only one diamter, the Great Wall DF/M39 mount has a smaller 30 mm buffer ring immediately behind the 39mm ring, designed to block the backward movement of all LSM lenses in order not to impede the shutter mechanism of SLR.
I think, only the earliest Leica I lenses without rangefinder coupling may fit the Great Wall DF
-- martin tai (martin.tai@capcanada.com), March 02, 2002.
Shanghai 58-II was probably inspired by Canon IV SB
-- martin tai (martin.tai@capcanada.com), March 02, 2002.
A Korean website provides better pictures of Shanghai 58-I and II http://www.classiccam era.org/shanghai.htmThe Shanghai 58-II in a previous message lost the small window ring
-- martin tai (martin.tai@capcanada.com), March 02, 2002.