Which Rodenstock Imagon lens do you recommend for portrait work with a 4x5 Sinar, 250 or 300 mm?

-- Neil Carey (ethnos@starband.net), December 19, 2001

Answers

I would recommend the 250 for 4x5. I generally use a 250 fuji and get excellent results, I personall believe that the 300 is just a tad too long for anything except very tight head shots, I go as far to say that for waist to head portraits you would be better off with a 150mm

-- ED (zeke@idirect.com), December 19, 2001.

250 the 300 is corrected for 5x7 and the 200 for 2x3 roll film.

-- Bob Salomon (bob@hpmaretingcorp.com), December 20, 2001.

I love my 250 alot. It gives a good 3/4 and full length perspective.

-- Scott Walton (scotlynn@shore.net), December 20, 2001.

Whichever fits your style. There isn't much difference between them - the 250 is equal to ~65mm on 35mm film and the 300 is equal to about ~75mm. Personally I'd prefer a 480.

-- Wayne DeWitt (wdewitt@snip.net), December 20, 2001.

Actually there is a major difference between them. They are optimized for various formats.

The 250 for 45 and the 300 for 57.

So if you were to use both on 45 with the same disk (for each lens) at the same setting, and make an exposure on each and enlarge them to the same size you will find the halation different.

The halation from the 250 on 45 will be what is expected from the Imagon but from the 300 would be less then expected.

-- Bob Salomon (bob@hpmaretingcorp.com), December 20, 2001.

"The halation from the 250 on 45 will be what is expected from the Imagon but from the 300 would be less then expected" ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? It is what it is - how have you devined the poster's expectations?

-- Wayne DeWitt (wdewitt@snip.net), December 20, 2001.

Haven't divined anythin.

At a given aperture and magnification the 200mm (if it covered 45) would have excessive ha;ation, the 300 too little and the 250 what would be expected and what the lens was designed to produce at the proper lighting ratio (5:1) and with the proper lighting (no umbrellas and preferably no soft boxes) remember this lens was designed in the 19th century - long before umbrellas and soft boxes and its' original purpose was to duplicate, photographically, romatic style landscapes. Not portraits.

-- Bob Salomon (bob@hpmaretingcorp.com), December 20, 2001.

The continuing education of Bob...

The definitive scholarly work on the topic of Imagons was undertaken by Dr. Alfred Scholz, Rodenstock, in 1979. The following is a précis of his history of soft focus lenses with our apologies for simplification. In a nutshell, the Imagon lens is based on a 2 element Achromat. One of the simplest lenses available. Imagons have 2 unique properties. a) Tremendous depth of field due to the fact that light is not resolved at the focal plane but exhibits instead a zone of focus and b) The ability to stay gently diffused even while sharpening up at small apertures. Invented by Dr. Heinrich Kuhne (1868-1944) and still in production by Rodenstock, these lenses represent, in the purists sense, an ideological struggle that took place amongst lens designers prior to current times. Should a lens produce the sharpest technically correct image possible or should a lens produce an image the natural way that the human eye sees light, which is directly speaking, a low resolution interpretation of reality with fuzzy edges sharpened and refined by the brain. The simplest photographs are pin hole images, image sharpness is affected by aperture, but the length of exposure is too great for general use. Daguerre and Niepce used the simple 1 element Wollaston (1812) Meniscus Lens in their cameras. In essence an eyeglass lens with a diaphram mounted at the front. This lens caused light to converge at the film plane thereby speeding the imaging process. The Meniscus lens was useful primarily in the near shooting range such as portrait work and was restricted to small film formats. In 1897 Henry S. Smith produced a 2 element 'semi achromat' in Boston which was used by Alfred Steiglitz for 5x7 and 8x10 formats. This lens produced a shimmering quality and was initially considered difficult to work with because different shooting circumstances produced wildly divergent results and also because shorter focal length lenses proved to be too soft. In the 1920's in Rathenow Germany, Nicola Perscheid, a renowned portrait photographer approached Emil Busch the lens designer, about custom making a portrait lens. Thus the Aplanat was born. The design was inspired by the periscope which is two meniscus lenses, concave to concave, with the addition of a divergent lens cemented in between. Like the Meniscus and Smith lenses before it, softness was variable according to aperture such that by f 8 the image becomes sharp. After the first world war Voigtlander introduced the Universal Heliar which was produced up until 1970. This design allowed softness at all aperture settings for large format work with longer focal lengths. In the 30's Ernst Leitz introduced the 9cm Thambar f2.2 for 35mm use. This 4 element design was replaced by the Hektor 125mm f2.5 after the 2nd world war. Both lenses produced soft images wide open, sharpening up as the diaphram is closed down. It was in the 20's that Kuhn, who was a photographer, approached Dr. Franz Staeble, a lens designer in Munich, with his concept of what a lens should be, 'romantic softness without sugariness, blurring without a woolly effect'. The first Imagon hit the market in 1928 and was called Kuhn's Anachromat. In 1930 the Staeble lens works were acquired by Rodenstock and in 1931 the Imagon was introduced. The Imagon is currently available in 3 focal lengths: 200mm H5.8, 250mm H5.8 and 300mm H7.7. The 200mm has a covering power of 154mm and therefore can be used on 4x5 without movement, although it is primary adapted to Medium Format cameras. The 250mm has a field of 180mm and is thus a better choice for 4x5. The 300mm covers 5x7 (220mm field).

Focusing an Imagon is technically challenging and should be done at the taking diaphram due to a focus shift which occurs when closing down. The discs can then be mounted to produce the halo effect for which the Imagon received it's patent. The subject is usually lit in a contrasty fashion to counter the softness of the lens, however at H 11.5 the Imagon produces a hard shape focus with very little diffusion. The Imagon is not simply a soft focus lens, but more accurately a lens with variable image production qualities that will reward the student of photography with unique interpretations of portrait and field work limited only by the imagination..

-- Wayne DeWitt (wdewitt@snip.net), December 21, 2001.

So Wayne,

Other then wasting an awful lot of space you essentially dup[licated some of my points.

Why the effort to simply quote from a translation?

Or do you always need the last word?

-- Bob Salomon (bob@hpmaretingcorp.com), December 21, 2001.

Jeepers, Wayne, take it easy. Bob's point was that the soft effect will differ between the two lenses on a 4x5 format. Among other things, the ratio of the center to the edge of the image circle will not be the same, creating a different soft-focus look. With the longer lens, the center will take up much more of the 4x5 picture, with reduced effect.

-- Arthur Gottschalk (Arthurwg@aol.com), December 21, 2001.

Anybody know where to get a used 250mm Imagon? Thanks. --John Barnier

-- John Barnier (jhb101@aol.com), December 22, 2001.

Also, can the 154mm Imagon for medium format be rigged to fit any particular medium format camera body? Or is it simply used on a 4x5 or 6x9 camera/board with roll fim back? Thanks for your he

-- John Barnier (jhb101@aol.com), December 22, 2001.

Also, can the 154mm Imagon for medium format be rigged to fit any particular medium format camera body? Or is it simply used on a 4x5 or 6x9 camera/board with roll fim back? Thanks for your hel

-- John Barnier (jhb101@aol.com), December 22, 2001.

In the past Burghard Schmactenburg made a focus mount and a modified Prontor Professional shutter as well as camera mount for MF cameras for the 120mm and 150mm Imagons. But he went out of business several years ago. Both Ken Mar Camera and Wall Street Camera purchased several of these and may still have them. Rodenstock also supplied a focus mount and camera adapters for the 200 Imagon for several MF cameras but these have beed discontinued for many years and may be found used but not new.

The lenses are easy to mount in the systems should you be able to find the mount for your camera (and the lens if 120 or 150).

For those using a Rollei 6008 or SL66 there are adapters made by Rollei that easily adapts Imagons (120 and 150 only on 6000 systems).

-- Bob Salomon (bob@hpmaretingcorp.com), December 22, 2001.

John, I found my 250mm Imagon on e-bay. You can also try Lens & Repro in New York. For a picture of a 200mm Imagon fitted to a focusing bellows on a Hasselblad, see www.cosmonet.org/camera/imagon_e.htmb

-- Arthur Gottschalk (Arthurwg@aol.com), December 22, 2001.

er...make that, e.htm, not e.htmb. sorry

-- Arthur Gottschalk (Arthurwg@aol.com), December 22, 2001.

Thanks very much everyone. Your help is sincerely appreciated! By the way, a very good frioend of mine, Russ Young, is doing his doctorate work at St. Andrews in Scotrland on portrait and soft focus lens photography (there's a difference). If anyone has questions on other lenses drop him a note: russyoung@imagon.demon.co.uk

Tell him John sent you.

Thanks ag

-- John Barnier (jhb101@aol.com), December 22, 2001.

Thansk to everyone for your input. I went ahead and ordered the 250mm Imagon from Badger Graphics this morning....Neil

-- Neil Carey (ethnos@starband.net), December 22, 2001.

Well, after all the wonderful input from you list members, I ordered the 250mm Imagon from Badger Graphics, only to get a call back saying that the lens has been discontinued and Rodenstock is totally out of them. To feed my now insatiable Jones for a new lens, I ordered the 110 Super-Symmar XL which had also been on my want list. But I wonder...and the question is...what y'all think about the Fujinon soft lens or others as a substitute for the Imagon.

-- Neil Carey (ethnos@starband.net), December 26, 2001.

I believe we have them in stock. Why not buy from an authorized U.S. dealer.

We can ship on Friday after we re-open from inventory.

-- Bob Salomon (bob@hpmarketingcorp.com), December 26, 2001.

Yup. Just checked our stock. Both the 250mm in Copal 3 and the 200mm in Copal 3 are in stock for any dealer to buy.

It's a shame a gray market dealer didn't check availability before offering you a product he can't deliver.

-- Bob Salomon (bob@hpmarketingcorp.com), December 27, 2001.

Quote from Bob Salomon in another thread:

"Any speciality store doing business with HP Marketing can match any Rodenstock price for their customers on a lens by lens basis. Taking or enlarging. You have to personally contact the store for the price matching and some personnel in some stores have probably ignored or forgotten this program exists."

"Some that take advantage of it regularly are Ken Mar, Mid West, PhotoMark, Denver pro Photo, glazers, Samys, K&S, K&R, Bear Images, Sylvios and many others."

So Neal,

Simply call up one of these authorized dealers and ask them to match the "gray market" price on the 250mm Imagon. As Bob stated above, the lens is in stock and his authorized dealers will match any advertised price. I know this whole price matching game is a bit confusing. It makes buying a new large format lens a lot like buying a used car. If you want to get the best price from an authorized dealer, evidently a little haggling is required. You can't just call up and order a lens and know you are getting that authorized dealers "best" price.

Kerry

-- Kerry Thalmann (largeformat@thalmann.com), December 27, 2001.

"any advertised price"

Any price in print in any photo magazine currently in print. Or any price in a current newspaper ad.

Sorry, internet prices do not apply for matching.

If you can find an advertised price in print meeting those conditions you will be able to buy the lens at that price. We must see the ad.

-- Bob Salomon (bob@hpmarketingcorp.com), December 27, 2001.

Original quote:

"any advertised price"

Latest version:

"Any price in print in any photo magazine currently in print. Or any price in a current newspaper ad." "Sorry, internet prices do not apply for matching."

This is the first time you've mentioned that your "price matching policy" does not apply to internet prices. It appears you are still refusing to admit that the internet has changed the way most people buy large format camera equipment.

It is your "price matching policy". So, you are certainly free to amend, append, suspend, honor or revoke it at your whim, but nwespaper ad????? Come-on, in the entire time I have lived in Portland, OR, never in my adult life have I seen an ad in my local newspaper for ANY new large format camera gear, let alone a new Rodenstock Imagon. Nor do I expect to see one any time soon. Newspaper Ad??? You're joking, right? This really is starting to feel like buying a used car - I see plenty of ads for those in my local newspaper. If your "price matching policy" excludes the internet, it's pretty useless (hey, even used car dealers have dicovered the interet as a viable sale tool). What you end up with is your own authorized dealers matching each other's authoized prices.

BTW Neil, I just checked the Calumet web site and they list the 250mm Imagon in stock at a price of $1019 (in Copal #3 shutter) . I also checked the B&H web site and they list the "authorized" USA version at $1729.95 (also Copal #3 shutter), but it's not in stock and special order only.

In an earlier thread, Bob stated:

"I said any local dealer can match any Rodenstock price on a lens sold by Calumet." Of course, I got the Calumet price listed above over the internet, so even though Bob claims his dealers match Calumet prices, it may not apply. If you're still looking for a 250mm Imagon, you might as well buy it from Calumet. They have it in stock. So, you don't have to waste your time playing price matching games. Plus, if you buy it from Calumet, they will include a free lensboard and mounting for any Calumet or Cambo camera (including the Calumet Wood Field and Zone VI).

Kerry

-- Kerry Thalmann (largeformat@thalmann.com), December 27, 2001.

Kerry,

Give it a rest.

Matching prices based on printed ads is common practice in retail.

If you would prefer not to adhere to the basic rules we have then forego the lens.

As for Calumet, they print ads and catalogs. That what is matched.

-- Bob Salomon (bob@hpmarketingcorp.com), December 27, 2001.

"Give it a rest."

I will, glady - the day you stop posting commercial messages in this non-commercial forum. I welcome your participation as a CONTRIBUTOR to this forum, but statements like:

"I believe we have them in stock. Why not buy from an authorized U.S. dealer. We can ship on Friday after we re-open from inventory."

Are nothing but a commercial sales pitch. This group is supposed to be for the free sharing of information- not free ad space for your products. I will never attack you personally, nor will I bad mouth the products you sell. I use many of them myself and have often recommended them to others. However, when you start pushing your products in a commercial fashion, I am only too happy to point out alternate sources of those same products - often at MUCH lower prices. Since I have NO commercial involvement with any of these businesses, I am merely sharing information - not trying to sell something for my own financial benefit. I wish you would play by the rules and do the same. And don't try to give me some line about not being a dealer and not selling directly to the readers of this forum. When you start mentioning the names of your dealers and suggesting that the readers of this forum buy from your "authorized" dealers, your employer obviously benefits financally from any sales generated by such posts. They are commercial posts. So Bob, you "give it a rest" with the sales pitches and I'll gladly move on to more productive endeavors myself.

Again, I am not against you personally in any way. I just wish you'd play by the rules and keep this forum free of commercial bias and influence. You do not pay to support this forum. You do not provied the equipment, the software or the manpower to run this server. You, therefore have no right to advertise here. You answered Neils original question (the 250mm Imagon is the proper focal length for portraits on 4x5) quite nicely. Such participation is well within the rules of this forum and should be welcome here. If you would have left it at that, I would have never even posted anything on this topic. Only when you started the sales pitch and tried to influence where Neil made his purchase did I get involved. I am not against free enterprise. I wholly support it - IN THE APPROPRIATE PLACES. This forum is not such a place and you know it.

"If you would prefer not to adhere to the basic rules we have then forego the lens." Or better yet, buy it elsewhere for less money and a free lensboard without price matching games or "rules".

"As for Calumet, they print ads and catalogs. That what is matched."

The 250mm Imagon is not listed in their catalog or their print ads. As I stated above the price I obtained was from their web site. They have this lens new, in stock in a Copal #3 shutter for $1019 (including free lensboard and mounting).

Kerry

-- Kerry Thalmann (largeformat@thalmann.com), December 27, 2001.

"I ordered the 250mm Imagon from Badger Graphics, only to get a call back saying that the lens has been discontinued and Rodenstock is totally out of them."

So many people would take this as meaning they are not available.

Simply not true. But then you did not see us offer to sell it to the poster. Nor would we.

We do not sell to end users. We sell to camera stores.

Ifr you can't accept that then save the bandwidth.

Especially as you have no problem with private e mails to us for info which we have always given you. When possible. Nor have we refused to help you when you come to our booth at trade shows. Nor when you special order products from your dealer from us only to return them shortly after.

You have always obtained service from us as we extend to any other users or potential users.

But using a gray importer as the source of knowledge regarding the availability of a product simply isn't always the answer.

-- Bob Salomon (bob@hpmarketingcorp.com), December 27, 2001.

"But then you did not see us offer to sell it to the poster. Nor would we. We do not sell to end users. We sell to camera stores."

And you mentioned the names of several of those camera stores and suggested the poster buy from them. That is a commercial post - posted to this non-commercial forum. You should have sent the sales pitch via private email and not posted it here. "Especially as you have no problem with private e mails to us for info which we have always given you. When possible. Nor have we refused to help you when you come to our booth at trade shows."

Isn't this your job???? It's exactly what I'd expect you to do. Like I said, I'm not against commercial enterprise in the appropriate venues. A trade show is such an appropriate venue. This forum is not a trade show.

"Nor when you special order products from your dealer from us only to return them shortly after."

Well, since you want to post personal information about my purchases in this public forum, let me explain my side.

I ordered a product distributed by HP Marketing through a local dealer. They did not have the item in stock nor was it available anywhere within several hundred miles of my home. The ONLY way I could see the product to determine if it met my needs was to special order it through my local dealer. Upon arrival, I determined it did not meet my needs. So, I returned it to the dealer and paid a 15% restocking fee so they could send it back to HP Marketing. I fail to see what I did wrong. I met my obligations (paid the 15% restocking fee for the ability to see this product in person and returned it within the agreed upon time period). More importantly, I fail to see what ANY of this has to do with this thread (the product in question was not an Imagon). Seems like the typical ad hominem attack. If you can't argue the merits of your position, launch personal attacks against the other participants. Sorry Bob, I won't stoop to that level. So, can we please stick to the issue being discussed and not my personal shopping habits? "You have always obtained service from us as we extend to any other users or potential users."

I should hope so. Like I said above, isn't that your job? Why should I not receive those services? I have also repeatly recommended products you sell in this and other forums (Technikardan TK45S, 150mm APO Sironar-N, etc.). It works both ways Bob. The difference is I don't derive any income from such recommendations. You do. "But using a gray importer as the source of knowledge regarding the availability of a product simply isn't always the answer."

The only so-called "gray importer" I mentioned was Calumet and they did indeed have the lens in stock at the time of my post. It may not be THE answer you wanted to hear, but the information was correct and was posted for the benefit of Neil, the original poster - not you.

Kerry

-- Kerry Thalmann (largeformat@thalmann.com), December 27, 2001.

"The only so-called "gray importer" I mentioned was Calumet"

Actually the Rodenstock products sold by Calumet are not gray. They are authorized as the distributor of Cambo cameras since Cambo and Calumet are under the same ownership.Sinar, Linhof, Horseman also all sell Rodenstock lenses as well as lenses from other manufacturers as camera manufacturers. In Japan Horseman is, in fact, the Rodenstock distributor while in the U.S. Horseman is distributed by Schneider.

-- Bob Salomon (bob@hpmarketingcorp.com), December 27, 2001.

"I ordered a product distributed by HP Marketing through a local dealer. They did not have the item in stock nor was it available anywhere within several hundred miles of my home. The ONLY way I could see the product to determine if it met my needs was to special order it through my local dealer."

This is also not quite the way it works. Our salesforce all has that particular item as a sample. The sales group we use in the Pacific NW has 2 complete sets of these. One in Seattle and one in Salem, OR. Had you asked they would have made one available for your dealer to show you.

Now we have a piece that can not be sold as new as it was opened and sold and can only be used as a sample.

So besides all the bookwork on the part of the dealer and HP on your behalf we needlessly end up with an extra demo.

Normally the dealer would have been charged a restocking and possibly a repacking charge on a return but this was not done in your case as a favor to you.

But that to is something you don't see. But when you returned that piece it automatically goes to service to ascertain its condition so when we do use it as a demo or sell it as a return to a dealer we are sure it functions as new.

That expense you also did not have to bear.

But next time ask to see a sample when it is not stocked.

BTW, had you noticed that Leki was in the latest Outdoor Photogrpahy with their walking stick/monopod at $119.00 list?

Essentially, except for the top grip, it is the same as the one you tried but under the Leki name it is almost twice as much.

-- Bob Salomon (bob@hpmarketingcorp.com), December 27, 2001.

"Actually the Rodenstock products sold by Calumet are not gray."

So then, what's your beef with me. I posted that Calumet had the 250mm Imagon in stock at $1019 and suggested Neil might want to order one from them if he was still in the market for one.

Kerry

-- Kerry Thalmann (largeformat@thalmann.com), December 27, 2001.

"Normally the dealer would have been charged a restocking and possibly a repacking charge on a return but this was not done in your case as a favor to you."

Well, it may have been a favor to someone, but not to me. My credit card was charged a 15% restocking fee for the privilige of determining that this product would not meet my needs (and I have the receipts to prove it).

I was not told that any samples were avialable, only that they could order the product for me to inspect (with the agreement that I would pay the restocking fee if the product was not what I wanted).

This has drifted WAY off topic at this point and has nothing to do with Imagon lenses. What happened with the product after I returned it is beyond my control. All I know was that I ordered it, it did not meet my needs and I paid a 15% restocking fee for returning it. That was my local dealer's standard policy on special order items. I did not ask for, nor did I receive any favors or other special treatment.

Kerry

-- Kerry Thalmann (largeformat@thalmann.com), December 27, 2001.

It seems I was mistaken. I was not charged a 15% restocking fee as I stated above. I just pulled out my reciepts (tax time is just around the corner) and discovered I was actually charged a 25% restocking fee for returning the special order items in question - not the 15% I had previously claimed. Also, on the back of my receipt, the 25% restocking fee is listed as my dealer's standard policy for special order items under $250 that are returned within 30 days. I agreed to these terms when I placed the order and honored them upon return. No favors or special treatment was aked for or received. Standard dealer policy.

Kerry

-- Kerry Thalmann (largeformat@thalmann.com), December 27, 2001.