The popes last liegreenspun.com : LUSENET : A.M.E. Today Discussion : One Thread
The pope is joining all the false religions together, and all who follow him and this antichrist prayer shall suffer the wrath of God( Revelations 17) In January he will be asking Satan to bring peace to Isreal, peace and safety then sudden destruction, watch and see! In Jesus name may God open your eyes in your minds to understand truth! All will be forced great and small to recieve the mark of the beast whose name aren't in the lambs book os life.
-- Anonymous, December 19, 2001
Question 128: Is the author of the Gospel of John claiming that Jesus is part of a tri-unity god when he has Jesus say, "before Abraham came into being, I am" (John 8:58)?
Answer: John 8:56-58 states: "'Abraham your father rejoiced to see my day; and he saw it, and was glad.' The Jews therefore said to him: 'You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?' Jesus said to them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham came into being, I am.'"
Trinitarians argue that the Greek words ego eimi ("I am"), allegedly spoken by Jesus (John 8:58), indicate that Jesus is God (see also John 8:24, 28). They arrive at their contention by connecting the phrase "I am" with the words spoken by God in Exodus 3:14 and often translated: "I AM THAT I AM . . . . Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: I AM has sent me to you." However, the literal and proper translation of this verse is: I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE. . . . Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: I WILL BE has sent me to you."
Since the author of the Gospel of John utilized the Greek Septuagint translation of the Bible in his writings, it cannot be assumed that John's Jesus is referring to the words in Exodus 3:14. Although Jesus actually spoke in Hebrew or Aramaic, not Greek, John recorded Jesus' alleged words in Greek. Ego eimi ("I am"), used by John's Jesus, is not the same as ho on ("The Being, The One Who Is"), which is used in the Septuagint's rendering of Exodus 3:14: "And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and He said, Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: THE BEING has sent me to you." Even though ho on appears in the Gospel of John, it is never used as a title or name or exclusively as a reference to Jesus. In the Book of Revelation, also credited to John by Christian commentators, ho on appears five times (Revelation 1:4, 8; 4:8; 11:17; 16:5). Significantly, in each instance, it is used as a title or designation applied to God, not Jesus. Thus: "John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is [ho on] and who was and who is to come; and from the seven spirits who are before His throne" (Revelation 1:4). That this verse refers to God and not Jesus is seen from the following verse, which continues the greeting by now including Jesus as one of those sending greetings. Hence, John says, in verses 4 and 5, that greetings are sent by God, the seven spirits, and Jesus.
In verse 8, John writes: "'I am the Alpha and the Omega,' says the Lord God, 'who is [ho on] and who was and who is to come, the Almighty'" (Revelation 1:8). This verse also speaks of God, not Jesus. In Revelation 4:8, ho on is applied to "the Lord God, the Almighty," not Jesus, who, as the "Lamb" referred to in Revelation 5:6-7, comes to God, who is sitting on His throne. That they are two separate entities is seen from Revelation 5:13: "To the one sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." In addition, ho on is applied to the "Lord God, the Almighty," not Jesus, in Revelation 11:17 and Revelation 16:5. That ho on in Revelation 16:5 refers to God and not Jesus can be seen from verse 7, which, referring to the subject of verses 5 and 6, states: "And I heard the altar saying: 'Yes, Lord God, the Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments.'" These are further indications that ho on and ego eimi are not used as synonymous terms by John.
In John 8:56-58, John is expounding his belief that Jesus had a prehuman existence as an angelic being in heaven. John's Jesus is proclaiming here that this prehuman existence began before Abraham was born: "Before Abraham came into being, I am." The fact of the matter is that the text does not at all indicate how long Jesus supposedly lived before Abraham. In no honest way can John's statement be taken to identify Jesus as God.
Question: If Jesus was God as well as man how could Satan expect to tempt him?
Answer: Mark simply states that Jesus was tempted by Satan (1:13) but Matthew (4:1-11) and Luke (4:1-13) elaborate the story. It is claimed that during Jesus' alleged forty days' sojourn in the desert, following his baptism by John, Satan tempted him with promises of an earthly kingdom if Jesus would only worship him.
If Jesus is part of God, how could he possibly sin, and how could Satan possibly hope to tempt him? Satan's words would be absolutely meaningless. Surely, even the earthly Jesus was incapable of committing as sinful an act as the worshipping of Satan. Indeed, unlike a mere mortal, it was decreed that the Gospels' Jesus follow exactly the life outlined for his earthly existence by the very godhead of which he was an integral part.
In assuming a human body, the Jesus of Christian theology knew what God's purpose for the future of mankind was and what was expected of him in order to bring this about. Did Jesus, the perfect god-man, have free will to sin while on earth? Obviously not! Had he failed to carry out God's plan, the entire timetable would have been eternally disrupted. Lacking free will to do as he pleased, Jesus could not truly have been tempted.
Neither could Satan, as one of God's creations, promise Jesus, who was already divine and in control of the universe, a mere kingdom as a reward for worshipping him. As puffed up with pride as one might envision Satan to be, he is certainly not stupid. In the Gospel narrative Satan knew Jesus was not a mere human, given to flattery and subject to the temptations of the flesh. Jesus was not one who would accept worthless promises.
Even if we suppose that Satan did make Jesus the most extravagant of offers, as reported by the New Testament, it would not in the least have been a temptation to the divine Jesus of Christianity. In view of the claim by Christian theology that Jesus was offered an earthly kingdom by God: "Ask of Me, and I will give the nations for your inheritance, and the ends of the earth for your possession" (Psalms 2:8), can anyone believe that a member of the Trinity would have difficulty in choosing between the two opposing offers? Certainly Satan would not have wasted his time on such a futile endeavor. It is obvious that the account of Satan's attempt to tempt Jesus cannot be reconciled with the overall view of Jesus as held by Christians.
Of Jesus it is said: "For because he himself has suffered and has been tempted, he is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted" (Hebrews 2:18). But if Jesus was God as well as man at the time of his temptation by Satan, how is this verse, and indeed the entire temptation episode, to be reconciled with the belief expressed by the author of James? He states: "Let no one say when he is tempted: 'I am being tempted by God'; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone" (James 1:13). If according to James "God cannot be tempted by evil," then the Jesus who Christians claim is God cannot have been tempted by Satan. The entire Gospel episode of Satan's temptation of Jesus must therefore have not occurred.
-- Anonymous, August 02, 2002
What if it did happen? What if the Gospel record is true? What if Jesus was fully God and fully man at the same time? What if all your analysis is not true? Where does that leave you?
Satan is stupid. After all he challenged God and was thrown out of heaven. May I suggest that only a fool will refuse to believe the Gospel and live.
Be Blessed Pastor Paris
-- Anonymous, August 02, 2002