I want to try a little "night shooting" and was wondering if the forum may have some suggestions in terms of film. My intention is to use ambient light as much as possible (ie no flash) such as streetlights and building lights.

Thanks in advance.

-- John Chan (ouroboros_2001@yahoo.com), December 19, 2001

Answers

any film will do, just depends on what you wish to do and what you want to shoot. on bulb anythings possible.. :)

-- grant (g4lamos@yahoo.com), December 19, 2001.

Kodak TMAX 3200P. Ilford Delta 3200. Fuji Neopan 1600. Fuji Superia 800. I have used all of them with good results. Make sure you bracket your exposures (+1, +2, etc.). Don't trust your camera's light meter to give you the correct exposure!...............................................

-- Muhammad Chishty (applemac97@aol.com), December 19, 2001.

http://www.alaska.net/~rowlett/noctilux.htm

Check out the last 3 photos on this webpage. Cool night shots!...................................

-- Muhammad Chishty (applemac97@aol.com), December 19, 2001.

No, at night I would probably pack my seldom used Sekonic Zoom Master and rely on spot metering "neutral grey" lit scenes for my meter readings. Or perhaps incident under streetlamps and from building light sources. Muhammed, I have a confession to make.....

For the subject matter that I like: I rarely bracket.

-- John Chan (ouroboros_2001@yahoo.com), December 19, 2001.

For handheld, candid photography, there are a few different films I use depending on the conditions and on what I'm looking for.

For color slides, I usually use Kodak EPJ 320T rated at EI 1000 and pushed two stops. Here is an example.

For b&w, I use Ilford HP5+ up to EI 1000 (with 1.5-stop push) if there's enough light. It can go up to 1600 with okay results, but shadow detail really suffers. Here is an example at EI 1000.

Usually for EIs of 1600 to 6400, I use Delta 3200 (with corresponding development). Shadow detail is quite good up to 3200. At 6400, grain is huge, but it has a cool look. Here is an example at 3200. Here is an example at 6400.

I don't do much high-speed color negative work. I've heard good things about Fuji NPZ, but I haven't tested it yet. Here is an example of Fuji Super G 800 (I think) exposed at 1600 and pushed one stop.

Note that shadow detail is better for all of these than what you see in the images on your screen. Actual prints and slides look better.

-- Mike Dixon (mike@mikedixonphotography.com), December 19, 2001.

Thanks for your input Mike.

Question... do you bracket "on the fly" your candid stuff?

-- John Chan (ouroboros_2001@yahoo.com), December 19, 2001.

Oh yeah, these were all done with incident metering. Sometimes I'll also use a 5-deg. spot, but the incident is more reliable. If I'm rating the film at 6400, sometimes light levels are too low for my meter (and it's too dark to read it, anyway), so I just set the aperture wide open (f1.4) and the shutter speed for as long as I think I can get away with (about 1/25 or 1/10 with the 50), and do what I can in the darkroom with the resulting negs.

-- Mike Dixon (mike@mikedixonphotography.com), December 19, 2001.

Your bracketing question came up while I was writing: No, I almost never bracket exposures.

-- Mike Dixon (mike@mikedixonphotography.com), December 19, 2001.

Rough rule of thumb: for any given ISO setting - slower film pushed will give finer grain - faster film with normal processing will give better tonality. I've always tended to stay with 400 film pushed (even soaked in Dektol to get 6400!) Choose based on your needs.

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), December 19, 2001.

mike man, you rule

-- grant (g4lamos@yahoo.com), December 19, 2001.

Simple, just try multiple exposures of the same scene. Not how the "masters" do it, but you will get some great shots

-- ReinierV (rvlaam@xs4all.nl), December 19, 2001.

Interesting… I asked the same question the LUG a few days ago. One of the replies recommended a book called ‘Night and Low Light Photography’ by a chap called Lee Frost. I brought the book and Amazon delivered it yesterday.

I must say that at first glance it looks very good.

Interesting that all of the photos in the book were taken using 25 to 50asa film at f16+ using a v-e-r-y ling exposure time. They look great.

He suggested that the really fast films are fine when you need to hand hold the camera but if you want results with a very fine grain go for a very slow film and use long shutter speeds. Tripod mounted of course.

Id be interested to see any night photography that you do… Im starting a little project of my own next year which I will publish online.

Jason

-- Jason Vicinanza (jason@futurafish.com), December 19, 2001.

As Mike says "I just set the aperture wide open (f1.4) and the shutter speed for as long as I think I can get away with (about 1/25 or 1/10 with the 50), and do what I can in the darkroom with the resulting negs." It's really hard to tell what effect the various bright light sources in the scene are having on the meter anyway. One thing I try to do is to compose so that the brightest light sources are obscured by other objects.

-- jeff schraeder (jeff@circlesofclarity.com), December 19, 2001.

John

Your question is not very specific. I have taken many pictures at night using K64 and the ones I keep are great (or so I say..). I brace the camera and tabletop tripod against a wall. I do this all the time and rarely shoot film higher than 100EI, but it is a real crap shoot as to what will work with respect to people in the shot. If there are no people (or cars) then any film will work and one can argue the slower the better. If there are people then even if you can brace the camera against the wall they will be more or less blurred. Sometimes the effect can be great, but you usually need one or two people at least to be rendered sharp for the shot to work. If you choose not to use a tripod, or if there is no convenient place to brace the camera or you want to reproduce people reliably and non-blurred then you need faster film. Personally if I go out specifically to take street scenes at night I use Delta 3200 in Microphen and like the film very much. 3200 is often not necessary for a bright city - 1600 is fine.

As I say, almost any film will work, but it depends a bit on how you operate and what exactly you want to take.

-- Robin Smith (smith_robin@hotmail.com), December 19, 2001.

John

I prefer color slide film for night work, usually a daylight balanced film, which will give a somewhat "warm" rendition that is pleasing. I just don't like the effects created by the tungsten balanced films. The other thing I can tell you is to use the slowest film coupled with wide apertures.

The fast and superfast films give grainy images with a relatively poor gradation of coloring. For me, the tradeoff of using a large aperture along with relatively slow film works best. The film quality really is a big deal, especially with color. I see so many horrible images, ruined by the high contrast and poor color rendition of superfast films.

You may lose some images due to camera shake when you use a slower film at night, but in my experience the images that are sharp are of much higher quality. I first learned this while photographing indoors at a museum in Amsterdam when I only had ISO 100 slide film available. The images were so much more beautiful than my usual indoor photos, which utilize ISO 400 slide film. I think all of the studd you read in popular photo mags about 800 or 1600 ISO films is OK for people using f/5.6 zooms, but you can handhold a Leica rangefinder with fast lens and do much better than that.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), December 19, 2001.

Eliot,

I guess it really depends.

Here is a snap that I took of a riverfestival at Providence during our annual ASPP Convention this summer. This was shot handheld @ 1 s with a 24 Elmarit ASPH @ full aperture Ektachrome 100. My feeling is going "wider" at night can probably give you a virtual stop or two with regards to camera shake. Anyways, I don't even consider this picture any kind of foray into night shooting. Just me dinkering around with what I had at the time.

Cheers,

-- John Chan (ouroboros_2001@yahoo.com), December 19, 2001.

"I think all of the studd you read in popular photo mags about 800 or 1600 ISO films is OK for people using f/5.6 zooms, but you can handhold a Leica rangefinder with fast lens and do much better than that."

Not if it's dark. The shot below was made on Delta 100 at f1.4 at about 1/2 sec (braced against the bar), and the negative was still so thin, getting a halfway decent print was a major challenge. Slide film would have been hopelessly underexposed. And this was the brightest area inside the bar.

-- Mike Dixon (mike@mikedixonphotography.com), December 19, 2001.

Mike, where is this bar you're hanging out at? ;)

-- Ron Buchanan (ronb@fusive.com), December 19, 2001.

John:

Like many other posters, I'd go w/fast, fast B&W film. I do a *lot* of low-light & night shooting & there's something good to all these films: Delta 400 pushed to 1600, Delta 3200, TMZ (TMAX 3200), & Neopan 1600 (for rare color situations, I use Supra 800 or NPZ). Each emulsion has a different look, of course, but my overall favorite would be Delta 400 pushed to 1600 (low grain & good tonality):

-- Chris Chen (furcafe@cris.com), December 19, 2001.

Mike, do you usually go wide angle for night? Do you find it makes a difference in terms of "apparent" camera shake? That 1 s nightshot was made possible by two things IMHO. The 24 mm and the talk that a keynote speaker at the convention gave an hour earlier. Amazing how alert you feel immediately after visiting the land of nod for a half hour or so...

;-)

-- John Chan (ouroboros_2001@yahoo.com), December 19, 2001.

And here's a snap using Neopan 1600:

-- Chris Chen (furcafe@cris.com), December 19, 2001.

John, I don't have any wide angles for my Leica--50 is as wide as it gets for me. I can reliably go down to 1/25 with the 50 and get images that are sharp enough. Having a few drinks helps steady my hands a little.

If I'm shooting wide angle, it's with a Pentax 645 with a 55 or a 35 (usually the 35).

Ron, it's not just one bar--there are few in my neighborhood and a few downtown (Nashville). I get around.

-- Mike Dixon (mike@mikedixonphotography.com), December 20, 2001.

Mike, Please do tell us which bars you frequent. I'll be more than happy to drive a couple of hours from my home in Jackson, TN to hang out with you and talk photography sometime. I'll even buy you a drink or two. By the way do you have a "formal education" in photography? I'm 24 and about to graduate with a business degree but want to go into photography. Need an assistant? Sorry to the others to venture so far off topic, I'll only do it this once. I promise

Ryan

-- Ryan Crouch (rcrouch53@hotmail.com), December 20, 2001.

Ryan, I haven't been frequenting any of them lately, but I'll probably get back to general socializing after the holidays. There's a good mix of bars in my neighborhood (music-biz/beautiful people hangouts, brewpup, college/sportsbar, dive bar), and, over the summer, I was hitting some of the honky tonks downtown. If you're willing to buy drinks, I'm motivated to show you the bars. ; )

I have no formal education in photography, just many thousands of bad photos demonstrating what doesn't work. I wish I had enough work coming in to support a full-time assistant, but as it is, I only hire someone very occasionally when needed.

-- Mike Dixon (mike@mikedixonphotography.com), December 21, 2001.

Mike;first of all I realy like your work man, very similar teknic about exposing black and withe film in very dim ligth; have you try develop film in higher temp to short the time and give it very gentle agitation to rescue contrast and grain, it had work with me, but older lens design (summaron at 2.8) lows my contrast significatively.

Chris your Neopan 1600 photo looks pretty good too, how do you process.

-- r watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), December 21, 2001.

R: Thanks. Due to a memory glitch on my computer (I use VueScan on a Mac G4), the Neopan scan came out much more contrasty than usual, but I liked the way it worked out on some of my night shots (from a vacation trip to LA & Vegas). As to development, I simply lack the space, patience, & fastidiousness to process my own film, so I rely on the pros (Nat'l Geographic & other top-end labs here in DC) to develop & contact.

-- Chris Chen (furcafe@cris.com), December 21, 2001.