Tony, Enough is enough. Alfie has ruined your forum. Can't you stop him?

-- Eve Hessler (Evehessler@hotmail.com), December 18, 2001

Answers

I have to agree. Alfie is obviously enjoying creating all this bad feeling. Maybe you can make the forum private so that only subscribers can contribute? I know that goes against the spirit of the whole thing, but these mind games are getting to be too much. I can only assume that he's quite aware of what he's doing and enjoys doing it.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), December 18, 2001.

I agree with Eve and Rob. Please get rid of him. Fun is fun, but now Alfie's posts are just a huge waste of time. He doesn't even try.

-- Richard Le (rvle@yahoo.com), December 18, 2001.

I have to agree on that!

After Alfie this forun have lost much of its spirit - instead of discussing Leica related stuff (with a little spin-off from time) to time the forum is now more about who likes or (more likely) dislikes Alfies postings.

To Alfie: Please reduce your postings and sort your questions before posting!

Kaj

Kaj

-- Kaj Froling (kf@draupnir.dk), December 18, 2001.

I don't really see the issue here.

This is a forum: You can ignore all the entries you are not interested it and voila. In a mail based system, I agree that receiving many unwanted mails is a nuisance - although a filter can be used.

Personally I find this forum is getting better with time. I just ignore all threads with titles I don't care about (Which lens should I take for my trip to whogivesaf, Which bag should I choose, ...). I also ignore all the threads started by some.

-- Xavier Colmant (xcolmant@powerir.com), December 18, 2001.

Several Weeks ago I responded to this subject by saying that "Alfie's winning". Some did not understand what I meant, while others did. IMO, Alfie is still winning and those who continually respond to him are losing. It has been suggested by many to simply ignore Alfie's posts if, by reading them, they upset you. Good advice. However, if anyone should be embarrassed by their response it should be "Alfiehater". His/her response to Alfie says much more about him/her than it does about Alfie.

-- Max Wall (mtwall@earthlink.net), December 18, 2001.

The problem is newcomers, if they see all this nonsense they leave without knowing what else is going on. This happened to me when I first saw usenet - I couldn't believe the flame wars and didn't believe there was any useful content. It took a while to sort it out.

The combination of Alfie and the anti-Alfie could easily push interested newcomers away. That's why simply ignoring the posts isn't a complete solution.

Anyway, Tony should be online soon (I think it's still 6:30 where he is) and maybe something will happnen.

-- Jeff Spirer (jeff@spirer.com), December 18, 2001.

I agree, enough is enough. A forum is not IMO a free liscence for anyone and anything. Alfie is a rank beginner, which is not in itself bad, but he thinks he has words of wisdom and incredible photos to pass on to us. HE DOESN'T!! A forum usually has some sense of democracy - even at Speakers Corner in London there is some sense of censorship in that ALL are given a fair shot at having their say - Alfie takes up way too much space and probably does put newcomers off. So let's take a vote. If the majority thinks he should be gone - filter him - if not, then we put up with him......

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), December 18, 2001.

Working on the problem now.

another Monday, I see.

-- Tony Rowlett (rowlett@mail.com), December 18, 2001.

I have nothing against Alfie personally, but this site is not the site he should be coming to place all his unselected photos and stream of consciousness stuff. He needs a chatroom. I am sure I speak for many when I say that if you ignore this then many of us will go away, me included. As I say this is nothing against Alfie as a person (he seems nice enough) but it is against Alfie the contributor to this site. He does not understand what this forum is about and his unhelpful answers and endless postings drive sane normal photographers away. We might (possibly) tolerate his stuff if his photography was interesting, but its is not - he is a rank beginner. Nothing wrong with that in itself, but coupled with all the relentless pretentious ramblings, misinformation, and pointless posts, it really is too much. May I suggest you limit him to one post a week? Clearly Alfie is not sufficiently sensitive to "feel the heat" and thereby get out of the kitchen, so I think you need a door to limit his access. It pains me to say this, but I think you will have to do it, unless Alfie can control himself voluntarily, which would be the best option but highly unlikely.

-- Robin Smith (smith_robin@hotmail.com), December 18, 2001.

Tony, it's Tuesday. Maybe it feels like Monday, but it's Tuesday.

-- Jeff Spirer (jeff@spirer.com), December 18, 2001.

Well, I'm leaving this forum. Sounds like everyone else wants me and I'm getting tired of these responses.

enough is enough, Alfie

-- Alfie Wang (leica_phile@hotmail.com), December 18, 2001.

I think the 1 post/week is a good idea. Or encouragement for him to go on vacation- a month free of his posts. Sometimes I wonder if he's real, or one person.

-- Tse-Sung (tsesung@yahoo.com), December 18, 2001.

you are all so mean. why don't you just ignore him?

-- stefan randlkofer (geesbert@yahoo.com), December 18, 2001.

The spirit of Christmas is alive and well on this forum!................

-- (applemac97@aol.com), December 18, 2001.

Kaj wrote: >After Alfie this forun have lost much of its spirit< Robin said: >I have nothing against Alfie personally<...>I am sure I speak for many when I say that if you ignore this then many of us will go away<

I wrote Tony a few weeks back and told him these very things -- offline. I even went so far as suggesting he initiate an open discussion so eveybody would have a chance to voice their concerns, and that those concerns needed to be specific -- it serves no positive purpose to complain without offering a solution. Unfortunately, most of the posts that began that way degraded into Alfie-bashing and got yanked... My compliments to those here that are listing the specifics of their complaints, for with those perhaps the real problem can be clarified and dealt with.

I have nothing personally against Alfie either. As I see it, the problem is not even in the frequency of Alfie's posts, but more in the content and the way he presents it. If the content were appropriate and accurate, I don't think any of us would object to the frequency... Unfortunately, he frequently posts OT and incorrect information. Repeatedly.

Max, yours is (was) probably the best solution, and it would have worked had it been practiced from the outset. But unfortunately, I think the situation has degraded to a point where it can no longer be ignored -- too many people want (and need) it resolved.

To Alfie: IMO, this is why everybody has implored you to edit your diatribes before posting them. And when you post an image and ask for input, you would build credibility for yourself if you actually applied the advice you got and then re-posted a new image showing the result. But instead, you tend to argue about the very advice you requested, and hence irritate those who were actually trying to help. And in case you haven't noticed, nobody is bothering to give you constructive advice anymore...

-- Jack Flesher (jbflesher@msn.com), December 18, 2001.

Xavier-

Where is Whogivesaf? I think I've been to Whogivesas...got some good photos there once. :}

-- jeff voorhees (debontekou@yahoo.com), December 18, 2001.

Honestly, you lot are unbelievable. Led by Eve, who seems to have little better to do than stir up anti-Alfie crap. IF YOU DON'T LIKE ALFIES'S POSTS - IGNORE THEM. It really is that simple. This is a free society, I should imagine some of my posts are un-popular too - we're not here to agree with each other all the time but come on, some people here are in danger of living up to the stuck-up, obsessed 'Leica user' label that we all despise.

There is room here for everyone. I have disagreed with Alfie in the past but he does at least bring some light hearted relief to what is sometimes a rather prim and proper collection of Leica worshippers (myself included!).

-- Giles Poilu (giles@monpoilu.icom43.net), December 18, 2001.

After last weekend I was genuinely despondent. I had made a real effort to ignore the big "A". But sheesh, he must do nothing but camp on forum posts, 24 hours a day, and his "contributions", I swear, are calculated to aggrevate. Anyway, rather than whine anymore I decided to write my own forum-specific filtered browser. I call it the "Super Ronco Wang-B-Gone". I am using it this very minute, and it bloody works great. It is alpha-code right now, else I'd offer it for free to anyone interested. BTW, it can filter any number of names and email addresses, even mine, which should make it all the more popular. Cheers,

-- Jeff Stuart (jstuart1@tampabay.rr.com), December 18, 2001.

Giles, I have to disagree with you. It does seem that the majority of people here really tried (through genuine advice and critique - which was asked for by Alfie) to help improve this fellows grasp of photography. But he never accepted the asked for critique (always coming up for phsyco-babble as to why the prints were blurry, etc) gracefully, nor the polite requests to edit his posts. I was a regular contributor to the Leica Forum (www.leica.com) until someone using the name 'anon' started posting uncalled for responses to everyone else. Leica didn't filter (though they were asked to) and now most of the helpful people have gone elsewhere, feeling there time was too valuable to waste with this nonsense. I think the right thing has been done...

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), December 18, 2001.

Giles: I respectfully disagree with you. Alfie is a compulsive- obsessive. A little research will show that he saturates several photo forums each day. What's more, he's now plaguing the greenspun Canon EOS forum with the _exact_ same queries he's posted here, only with an EOS spin. As you see, he's informed the forum that (a) he's about to buy one or several EOS cameras; (b) he's about to buy several EOS lenses and wants to know their history, composition, etc. (c) he's going to let his Princess use the EOS (d) He's going to post EOS photos any day now.

http://greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=007Pym

That there's something seriously wrong with him is beyond question. Much as I hate to hurt anyone's feelings (and I do), I hate more to suffer fools. He was the biggest I've encountered on the internet, which is refuge for them.

-- Eve Hessler (Evehessler@hotmail.com), December 18, 2001.

I'm a newbie to this forum and I do find Alfie's outbursts a tad annoying too. I'm only here to try and find out more about my camera, after all it's only a tool and not a way of life (please don't flame me). I'm a very unassuming lad, I'm a published photographer but I don't see a need to make a song and dance about it.

Anyway I'd just like to thank everyone that's passed on advice to me lately, I find the rest of you wonderful!!!

-- Philip Woodcock (phil@pushbar.demon.co.uk), December 18, 2001.

Bob and Eve, thank you for the respectful replies. Perhaps I am wrong then and Alfie was/is a fraud. A shame, I too found his posts somewhat odd sometimes, however, I am sure I will not be the only one to miss his contributions.

-- Giles Poilu (giles@monpoilu.icom43.net), December 18, 2001.

Forgot to say, regarding the posts by Alfie that were deleted yesterday - someone mentioned he posted a question something like; "Let's have a competition to see who can load their M6 the fastest!"

Come on - who couldn't miss a guy who posted THAT!?!

-- Giles Poilu (giles@monpoilu.icom43.net), December 18, 2001.

Tony, I, for one, defer to your experience and wisdom in dealing with the Alfie issue. At first, I supported his seemingly refreshing enthusiasm and naiveté, but now I think we are being put on. His photographs must have been posted simply to get a rise out of the forum. No one but the most moronically deluded could look at that crap and wax philosophically about it. Nietzsche indeed! Not even morbid curiosity could get me to read another one of his posts. The pattern of his posts is disturbing. I am convinced he is pulling our chain.

-- Hil (hegomez@agere.com), December 18, 2001.

This forum is a very cool place! The forum should be strong as well as flexible enough to bear the weight of anyone that is interested in Leica photography. It's apparent that A. irritates a lot of folks...but not me...so.... maybe people can stretch a little bit and learn tolerance and forgiveness instead of the antipathy generated by the current situation. I don't particulary care for the smell of a holier than thou group of people...even if it is in a subject I'm interested in...there are enough of those already in the world. I guess some people think A. has somehow damaged this forum...I cant see that or justify his removal. There are plenty of REAL problems in the world and REAL problem people...this situation is minor and unimportant and is not one of them. What is important is that communication occurs and not excommunication.And Tolerance for people that don't meet our expectations as there will always be someone else to fill A.'s shoes.

-- Emile de Leon (knightpeople@msn.com), December 18, 2001.

I usually try to keep my trap shut about anything except camera/photography related issues at this site, but I need to express a few things. To my mind, this forum is made up of some pretty tolerant people, but there comes a point where the most polite thing to say "enough already". It's like asking a house guest who has repeatingly misused their priveldges to leave. There is nothing mean about that, as you are not doing them any favors by putting up with their crap. How anyone can say they will miss the calculated disruption and non-information is beyond me.

-- Andrew Schank (aschank@flash.net), December 18, 2001.

Amen Emile,

I have been saddened by the response of many people on this forum to Alfie's posts. Those who find Alfie's posts annoying were told several times by different people that they should consider the obvious and not read his posts. However that simple solution went unheeded. Instead we have a torrent of abusive posts from those that consider themselves more qualified to post to this forum than Alfie. Consider for a moment, if you will, that not one of Alfie's posts were abusive or put people down in any way. The total opposite to some of those who have derided him. Furthermore, many of Alfie's detractors, have never posted a question or answer on this forum before they started bashing him.

This unreasonable lack of tolerance toward Alfie by some shows them for the type of person they really are.

-- sam smith (Ruy_Lopez@hotmail.com), December 18, 2001.

To the not-so-kind folks in the leica forum..

I understand everyone's complaints with Alfie.. I have been reading this forum for quite awhile and although they never bothered me, I can see why some don't like them...

BUT.. as someone who is about to join into the ranks of Leica camera/lens ownership, I will never visit this forum again.

Alfie's posts would have never 'turned' me off to posting in this forum, but posts like these, and the responses made by some of the same people to Alfie's posts sure would... stupid questions and rambling don't turn people away from a forum, HATE filled messages do...

I just hope the moderator understands that by allowing this kind of stuff to go on he is ruining a great board.

some of you should sit down and think long and hard about your lives if one person ON A PUBLIC MESSAGE BOARD gives you this much grief..

I actually thought this board(and a number of others on LUSENET) where way better than this sort of thing, but I guess not..

I hope everyone is happy now that you have gotten rid of Alfie...

michael turner

-- michael turner (pugachev@light-heavy.com), December 18, 2001.

Sorry but I have to differ with two of the recent posters - claiming good 'ole Alfie did not harm to the forum. Time and time again over the last month or so Alfie has posted mis-information (and whether he didn't know he was wrong, or purposely made things up) the he purported to be knowledgeable truth. If any newcomer read these, took them as truths and then later found them to be wrong - maybe after wasting film or damaging equipment, and so come to mistrust the experise of many of the people on the forum - then YES he has damaged it. Many people frequent the forum to gain information - not as an entertainment venue as some would have us believe.

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), December 18, 2001.

Bob,

"Time and time again over the last month or so Alfie has posted miss- information (and whether he didn't know he was wrong, or purposely made things up) the he purported to be knowledgeable truth."

If that is the true reason why you and perhaps some others find Alfie's posts objectionable then why not do the obvious thing and correct his miss-information with your superior knowledge of things Leica?

I personally think the real reason many find Alfie's posts annoying is his exuberant and sometimes off topic, long rambling posts. Be that as it may, Alfie doesn't exist to please you and some others.

Perhaps Alfie should have toned down some of his posts as respectfully requested by some and maybe Andrew is correct with his assumption that Alfie was just trying to antagonize. However I think the nasty reactions and lack of tolerance Alfie received were totally uncalled for and probably egged him on.

Anyway it looks as though the intolerant have achieved their objective; that is, until the next person comes along who upsets their delicate sensibilities. As Michael Turner succinctly pointed out above, "some of you should sit down and think long and hard about your lives if one person ON A PUBLIC MESSAGE BOARD gives you this much grief.."

-- sam smith (Ruy_Lopez@hotmail.com), December 18, 2001.

I followed a link that pretty much said: "Look what Alfie did to their forum!" and all I found were seemingly hundreds of posts ABOUT Alfie, nothing by him.

Allan

-- Allan Wafkowski (allan@sohogurus.net), December 18, 2001.

Sam/Michael:

You guys are perhaps a bit new to this forum, and you're runnin' down the wrong track with this one... Bob and the others are absolutely correct.

>If that is the true reason why you and perhaps some others find Alfie's posts objectionable then why not do the obvious thing and correct his miss-information with your superior knowledge of things Leica? < We did, time and time again, and the advice was not heeded -- worse, in most cases it was castigated by Alfie himself.

>some of you should sit down and think long and hard about your lives if one person ON A PUBLIC MESSAGE BOARD gives you this much grief..< We did, and many of the people on this forum, Bob included, defended Alfie's right to post -- However, over time it became clear that Alfie had no interest in soothing the feathers he had ruffled, and whether intentional or not, he seemingly took delight in continuing to ruffle same...

We had a very nice, polite and informative forum here, up until about three months ago when this Alfie-phenomenon hit us. All that those of us that were here before that point want, is to return to what it was.

-- Jack Flesher (jbflesher@msn.com), December 18, 2001.

Thank-you Jack.

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), December 18, 2001.

If Alfie or anyone else posts a crappy photograph or endless blibber-babbling, I'm going to delete it. I've learned to love deleting. I even love the word delete.

Now, if you will excuse me, I have to go mail two large boxes of Christmas gifts to my folks in Fairbanks, and I may even do some film processing this evening. Four rolls at a whack - cool, huh?

-- Tony Rowlett (rowlett@mail.com), December 18, 2001.

I never read Alfie's posts but enjoy the 50 or so responses that unavoidably follows it. Very entertaining! I am approaching middle age and losing my hair and these posts really take me back to my early youth. Thank you Alfie! I will miss you but not enough to visit the Canon Forum either. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all Leica nuts!

-- ray tai (razerx@netvigator.com), December 18, 2001.

It's interestinbg to note that Alfie has been posting, for a little while now, to both the LEG and the LUG. The LUG, in particular, isn't noted for its tolerance and I held my breath waiting to see how badly he would be flamed. However, his posts have been politely received. Those members who voiced negative criticism about his pictures have been patient, helpful, gentle and kind ... so far!

-- Ray Moth (ray_moth@yahoo.com), December 18, 2001.

Yeah, LEG was very polite to him too... until today. Good guy flamed him very badly 'cause he kept pushing his "windchimes" photo wanting critique. Good guy gave him honest fedback and got beat up for it, but had several others jump to his defense. Result: Alfie now DOA on LEG...

-- Jack Flesher (jbflesher@msn.com), December 19, 2001.

PS: the above took about 4 hours total...

-- Jack Flesher (jbflesher@msn.com), December 19, 2001.

PPS: LEG is obviously more efficient than we are...

-- Jack Flesher (jbflesher@msn.com), December 19, 2001.

Jack and Bob, your smugness and self-righteousness in this matter is startling. Perhaps you would like to set up a separate forum with yourselves as sole members? Here you could continue to congratulate each other and remove members you dislike. Whether Alfie was a fool or not is open to debate but who are YOU to decide who should and shouldn‘t be allowed on this forum. Just listen to yourselves:

Jack - (((You guys are perhaps a bit new to this forum, and you're runnin' down the wrong track with this one... Bob and the others are absolutely correct.)))

And again- ((( We had a very nice, polite and informative forum here, up until about three months ago when this Alfie-phenomenon hit us. All that those of us that were here before that point want, is to return to what it was.)))

Bob - ((( Thank-you Jack. )))

Oh dear, you really cannot see why your attitude upsets people can you?

Michael summed it up for people like you:

(((Anyway it looks as though the intolerant have achieved their objective; that is, until the next person comes along who upsets their delicate sensibilities.))

What a shame.

-- Giles Poilu (giles@monpoilu.icom43.net), December 19, 2001.

Sorry, Sam summed it up.

-- Giles Poilu (giles@monpoilu.icom43.net), December 19, 2001.

Lemme put it this way: Alfie is maybe this, that, or the other (depending on who's up) but This Forum and certainly Leica Brand are both absolutely Top Notch so that I (myself) actually feel that he doesn't belong here very well.

Otherwise, Tony, please at least do us (at least many of us) the big favour and automate everything he starts off with into your (our) own selection, e.g. how about

Older Messages (by category)

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    Classic (28)
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-- Michael Kastner (kastner@zedat.fu-berlin.de), December 19, 2001.

Giles:

Please note that I have never "bashed" or been rude to Alfie... Go ahead, check the archives. You will find I have pointed out some curiosities about his posts, and I have shared my opinion about how things got out of control with him, and I have stated all along that it is not Alfie himself that is ruining this forum, but the negativity that seems to follow him wherever he goes. Additionally, I've written Alfie off-line more than once, and (kindly) suggested ways he could modify his posts to create less conflict. Perhaps you perceive this as being smug -- so be it. But self-righteous? No way...

-- Jack Flesher (jbflesher@msn.com), December 19, 2001.

Giles:

FYI, I should add that I help to moderate another Leica forum -- and naturally, Alfie posts there too. I believe his posts have been reasonably on-topic and as valid as anybody elses there. I could banish him with a few key-strokes if I were self-righteous towards him, but I have not, and am not. OTOH, I have had to "moderate" exactly one post by another that was negative, OT and directed at Alfie. So far, so good, IMO.

-- Jack Flesher (jbflesher@msn.com), December 19, 2001.

I think we all need to take a good look at ourselves with the lens of our own hearts and minds. Not to worry about others. None are ready for mastery ....yet.But one day maybe if we really inact seeing with the wide angle as well as the tele and the normal view.

-- Emile de Leon (knightpeople@msn.com), December 19, 2001.

Hey! Stop it! Take some photos! Who cares about this?

Girl on a Boat, Lake Patzcuaro, Mexico, Copyright 2001 Jeff Spirer

-- Jeff Spirer (jeff@spirer.com), December 19, 2001.