Hi, How do we know that Biblical baptism entails complete immersion? Biblical evidence?

-- Anonymous, December 13, 2001

Answers

Bob,

There have been many discussions concerning this matter. If you go through the archives you will find what most here have said about these specific things.

-- Anonymous, December 13, 2001

Baptism is one case where all the major translations transliterate the Greek transcripts rather than translate.

If they had translated it instead, they would have picked a word like dunk, bury, or immerse.

-- Anonymous, December 14, 2001

Bob,

Any lexicon will tell you that it means immerse. Every single reference source I have ever consulted on this, whether Catholic, Presbyterian, etc... says the same thing -- that is simply what the word means.

-- Anonymous, December 14, 2001

D. Lee Muse, Hi, would you care to share some specific statement in this posting, pin-pointing specific reasons that we believe that Water Baptism means immersion. Thank you, Bob

-- Anonymous, December 14, 2001

Barry, Can we depend on lexicons when the word is transliterated. Some people regard the use of lexicons as unfair.

From an unspecified source: "Must we be Greek scholars to learn the truth?

The average person does not understand Greek. He cannot use lexicons to refute a Greek argument, but neither can he use lexicons to confirm a Greek argument. So why should he be convinced by it?

Does our salvation depend on evidence which we can neither confirm nor refute?

Jesus expected average people to understand His teachings (Mark 7:14). We can know the truth (John 8:32) and prove all things (1 Thess. 5:21; 1 Pet. 3:15). Average people can do this by studying the Scriptures (2 Tim. 3:16,17; Acts 17:11; Eph. 5:17).

Any practice, which can only be established by a study of the original Greek, ought to be immediately suspect, because the average person can not check it out. Those who make such arguments are committing a form of elitism: "I will tell you God's will, but you can't know the truth unless you take my word for it!"

The fact that a definition can be found in a lexicon does not prove it applies in a particular New Testament passage.

Dictionaries list significantly different definitions for many words. Different meanings may apply in different contexts. And word meanings may change over time. Examples:

* Compare the word "gay" today to its use prior to the mid-1900's. /SNIP/

People often misuse dictionaries by trying to apply a definition which does not fit in a certain time or context. Such problems are especially common with dictionaries of foreign languages. Furthermore, Greek lexicons were written by human scholars, who are subject to error.

Lexicons do not "prove" that ..."

Bob

-- Anonymous, December 14, 2001

So your saying that if I use the watchtower translation or the book of mormon, I'm ok, because why would the average person be expected to know better?

And actually, wouldn't the average person be suspicious of a sprinkling baptism when we read Romans 6:1-4? Is a sprinkling baptism really a good analogy to burial? The scriptures do warn of false teachers, so someone reading Romans 6 should take pause if they believe in anything but immersion.

-- Anonymous, December 14, 2001

Bob, whether you or anyone else likes it or not, the NT was written in Greek, therefore going to a lexicon is the most natural thing to do. Yes, we are to study the word, but we are to study what it says and means, and that is going to take you backto the Greek meaning behind the words. That is simply the nature of the beast.

You could use to old standard chart that P.H. Welshimer used in the tract "facts Concerning the NT Church." I dont have one handy but I'm sure someone else can easily put it on here.

Baptism simply means to immerse. Your argument to Barry sounds a bit Clintonesque: What does "is" mean. It means what it means. Words mean things.

-- Anonymous, December 14, 2001

"Baptizo" meant "to immerse" when Paul and Peter and John and all the gang used the word. Just because the church over the centuries has changed what it meant by the word, and just because translators were too cowardly to translate it and transliterated it instead, does not invalidate its original - and intended - meaning.

-- Anonymous, December 14, 2001

I was the "unspecified source" of most of Bob's recent post. I sent him this information in an email, and it appears that he just used my words in reply to some of your posts.

-- Anonymous, December 14, 2001

Bob,

Even without using lexical evidence, the English text is very clear. Consider the following verses:

(John 3:23) Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were constantly coming to be baptized.

(Acts 8:38) And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him.

(Col 2:12) having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

(Rom 6:4) We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

I would think that would be sufficient.

-- Anonymous, December 14, 2001

Can we call you the specified source now?

Do you have to go into a witness protection program now? ;-)

*** Warning: The use of humor is not authorized! ***

Hmmm ... everybody please note that Barry is defending baptism in this thread ...

-- Anonymous, December 14, 2001

Bob, In order to answer someone who asks you a question like that, who insists proof without the Greek, the best you can do is comparitive examples. Many have already been put forth. There are many. Ask certain questions: Does sprinkling involve "much water." Is there a burial in sprinkling, if so, how? Why go into a river to be sprinkled? WHy didn't philip just whip out a bottle of water and sprinkle the eunuch?

I know the type of person you're dealing with. I've had to deal with them myself. Somehow, studiousness, in their mind, is a lack of faith and hazardous to a true knowledge of Scripture. If this person continues to wallow in ignorance there will come a time for you to shake off the dust and move on. He will feel like he won an argument, but you'll know better. Check out the Welshimer tract.

-- Anonymous, December 14, 2001

One more thought Bob,

When the Baptism of the Holy Spirit occurred, did He immerse or sprinkle?

-- Anonymous, December 14, 2001

Thank you all. I would never have revealed the "unspecified source." Each one of you are correct. Thanks. We need this kind of excercise once in a while. Thanks Kevin. You did not have to say anything. I would like to see your contribution to this topic however. Welcome to the witness protection program. Bob

-- Anonymous, December 14, 2001

P.S. Kevin, you are not average.

-- Anonymous, December 14, 2001

Bob,

You said: "Hi, How do we know that Biblical baptism entails complete immersion? Biblical evidence?"

Please take a look at John 3:23. If Biblical baptism doesn't include "complete immersion" then why did John the Baptist have to baptize in Aenon near Salim? Of course, we have the answer, "because there was much water there."

Why the need for much water?

Answer: In order to "completely immerse" of course!

Look at Acts 8:38-39. Here we have Philip and the eunuch together and when the eunuch made his confession, in verse 38, "both Philip and the eunuch WENT DOWN INTO THE WATER, AND HE BAPTIZED HIM." Then in verse 39, they "CAME UP OUT OF THE WATER." (Capital letters in both verses mine) This most certainly sounds like "complete immersion" to me, wouldn't you agree? If not, why not?

-- Anonymous, December 14, 2001

These aren't lightweights in this Forum, Bob. Throw another one at em!

-- Anonymous, December 14, 2001

Kevin, I agree.

-- Anonymous, December 14, 2001

Bob, For more answers to your question scroll down to older discussions, click on the category "Preacher Stuff" and then scroll down to find a thread titled "Help answer this believer's questions". The responses there literally changed my life and view of baptism.

-- Anonymous, December 14, 2001