ARAB WORLD - Many say bin Laden video a fake

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Many in Arab World Call Bin Laden Video a Fake

By Inal Ersan

DUBAI (Reuters) - Washington's allies were quick to judge the latest videotape of Osama bin Laden (news - web sites) to be final proof of his guilt on Thursday, but in the Arab world many dismissed the footage as false propaganda.

While some senior Arab officials declared themselves convinced, it was harder to find ordinary citizens who did and most governments in the region maintained silence on the issue.

``I think this recording is forged ... I don't believe this tape is authentic,'' said Sheikh Mohammad Saleh, a Saudi cleric.

Ali, a Saudi civil servant, concurred. ``The picture is real but the voice is not. It could be a voice over,'' he said. He had to watch the videotape on a regional satellite station as Saudi state television failed to broadcast it.

``Do the Americans really think the world is that stupid to think that they would believe that this tape is evidence?'' asked Abdul Latif Arabiat, head of Jordan's mainstream Islamist party the Islamic Action Front.

``In my view this tape has been fabricated by Washington to condemn bin Laden and conceal America's ugly crimes in Afghanistan (news - web sites),'' said Yousef Abdul Hamid, an Amman taxi driver.

A less skeptical Bahraini man said: ``If the recording was real, it only adds that bin Laden was aware of the incident but not necessarily that he had planned it.''

``It is possible that another group was behind it but had informed bin Laden about their plan,'' he concluded from the muffled tape, which was accompanied by an official U.S. translation which some Arabs described as inaccurate.

Many in the Islamic world choose to believe theories that the September 11 attacks were a plot by Israeli secret services to discredit Muslims.

UAE CALLS TAPE CONCLUSIVE

However, the United Arab Emirates and a senior diplomat from another Gulf Arab state said they were persuaded of bin Laden's role in the suicide plane attacks on the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon (news - web sites) in Washington.

``There is no doubt in my mind that bin Laden was behind those operations. The tape confirms that in a way that leaves no room for doubt,'' UAE Information Minister Sheikh Abdullah bin Zaid al-Nahayan said.

The videotape was aired in the Middle East by Abu Dhabi Television and al-Jazeera satellite channel after its release by the Pentagon.

It shows bin Laden chatting informally with fellow-militants and saying he had been more optimistic than his colleagues about how much damage the attacks would inflict, but he had not dared hope they would bring down the WTC towers completely.

``It is a confession no doubt about that. But I fear that it will not make bin Laden any less of a martyr when he is killed,'' the Gulf diplomat said.

U.S. forces are bombing an area in Afghanistan where bin Laden and followers are believed holed up.

``If the tape says anything it says the Americans are still looking for evidence, but evidence should come before and not after,'' a Gulf academic said. ``The whole thing seems far-fetched.''

A Lebanese resident of the United Arab Emirates however sided with Washington. ``The Arabic was not very clear but I think after seeing the tape he is a criminal... whatever the United States said was true.''

Israel called the tape ``unequivocally incriminating evidence about the involvement of al Qaeda in terrorism.''

Palestinian officials, locked in a rapidly escalating conflict with Israel which accuses them of complicity in terrorism, had no immediate comment.

British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw said the tape ``totally vindicates the action that we, the U.S. and the international coalition have taken in Afghanistan.''

-- Anonymous, December 13, 2001

Answers

the September 11 attacks were a plot by Israeli secret services

something about that...

-- Anonymous, December 14, 2001


With the unmatched level of technical and creative genius in this country, we would have faked a helluva lot better video than that.

-- Anonymous, December 14, 2001

Just as the JFK assassination and the OKC bombing involved a lot more people (and "authorities") than we are publicly told about, so too did the WTC in my opinion. Remember, bin Laden was on the CIA payroll for quite some time and a lot of connections were made thru him. Also, we are just now getting information leaks about how cozy our own government, at least at the intelligence level, has been with the Russian and Israeli sections for many years, even during the cold war. If the truth about the WTC ever gets aired it will shock people. There are some very curious and disquieting items being circulated about who may have known in advance and who was told to stay away from that building on the day it was hit.

-- Anonymous, December 15, 2001

Personally, I think our current involvement in Afghanistan is less about getting bin Laden and more about throwing out the Taliban so we can install a government that we can "work" with. Why? Well, there is the oil situation, in the same way we were involved in Desert Storm. Remember, we had fully supported Saddam prior to that, and information has been presented that we knew he was going to hit Kuwait and not only didn't warn him off but rather gave him the impression we would not interfere. Why? Then there are the stories going around right now about the desire to run a big oil pipeline from Russia through Afghanistan, but the Taliban wouldn't allow it.

Next, Afghanistan is the largest grower of Opium in the world. Question is whether we would like to interfere with that crop in order to stop it, or to control it? We have not stopped the cocaine situation in Columbia, rather we have stayed involved in order to control who is in charge and how they deal with us. Remember the Panama attack to oust Noriega the military dictator there who had taken a confrontational position with us? That whole scene was about drugs and not control of the canal.

The point is that in our present world of information, disinformation, deceipt, power, and control, the actual situation lurking behind the public display is often very grim and upsetting. When we allow ourselves to just buy into the out-front reasons and statements being fed to us we get hoodwinked, pure and simple. We may not like to admit we are being fooled (who does?) but to turn a blind eye to the deeper underlying motives is just playing into the hands of those who desire to control our lives.

-- Anonymous, December 15, 2001




-- Anonymous, December 15, 2001


Wow, and here I thought this was the "everything is wonderful here in oz" forum. Maybe I belong here after all????

-- Anonymous, December 15, 2001

I can't speak for everyone but I don't believe any of us think everything is wonderful. We hashed a lot of this out on the old TB forum and decided there are some things we can change, some we can't; some things we can ameliorate, some we can't; and so on. What we try to do here is provide information that will help us act according to whether we can prevent, change, or ameliorate a given situation.

Take, for example, an Atlantic hurricane. If it's a 4 or 5, then we here in Durham will probably feel the effects if it comes ashore in NC. We know what will happen from previous experience: no electricity, no gas, no cash available, etc. So we're prepared for that and can cope very well, much better than most. In fact we did, sailed through well, but if it had gone on longer than a week, it would have been a bit more wearing. Ditto for severe winter storms.

If we're hit with the kind of disaster as befell the WTC area, we might have more problems--but would still be able to cope a lot better than others.

Being very short of time, as most of us are, we can't spare any to debate endlessly how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, nor would it do us any good. Hence, if there IS a plot for the Bilderbergers and Illuminati to take over the world--what the hell can we do about it? The young 'uns will have to cope with that. Besides, there are many other forums specializing in that stuff, with much more knowledgeable people than us.

If the real reason for our entry into Afghanistan is to get at the oil and gas in Uzbekistan, what can we do about it and would we be against it even if it were true? Would that mean the Bilderbergers are backing bin Ladin? Gawd, I dunno, I'm just trying to get by day to day, ya know?

Because of what I've learned on the old TB and here, I'm in far better shape to cope with my husband's impending layoff than the average. It's not going to be easy because of the three-month layoff a short time previously. But it can be done and we should be able to hold out for a couple of months until Sweetie can come up with another job.

Besides I'm a Brit--stoic, chin up, stiff upper lip and all that crap. It's why we talk funny. And if my chin goes any higher and my upper lip any stiffer, you won't be able to understand me at all.

-- Anonymous, December 17, 2001


What did she say?

LOL

-- Anonymous, December 17, 2001


Wow, I guess I came across as offensive......really sorry. didn't mean to :>(

-- Anonymous, December 17, 2001

Diane, I think it's me, not you, that inspired Old Git to elaborate on her views about world events that way. I have been presenting alternative viewpoints on many issues that are offered up to the public by both the media and our government. Still, the question remains, what can we do about it? A good question, too. My answer is that Knowledge Protects, Ignorance Endangers.

Back in the good old days when the Native Americans were in charge in this land there were some tribes that used to harvest buffalo in an interesting way. They would drive them toward a cliff and the animals in the front of the herd would be forced off the cliff, dropping to the ground far below, dead, and would then be harvested for food. It was the inability of the buffalo to understand where they were being driven and what was coming next that spelled their individual doom.

I believe humans are driven in the same way. By keeping us ignorant of what is coming next, those who are the movers and shakers can control us in any way they please. Only those who sniff or sense the true motives behind the "pushing" are able to hang back, move in a different direction, and survive. That is the way of things, the very nature of how we are controlled or not controlled. When we accept the official explanations and stories we are just moving with the herd. How many of us would now be willing to accept the Warren Report as the final official explanation of the JFK assassination? Or the FBI report of the Waco disaster? Knowledge Protects, Ignorance Endangers.

So, getting back to the question of what good does it do to identify the wizard behind the curtain pulling the strings and levers, and then what can we actually do about it, will require that we consider whether we are simply here on earth to live a few short years and die, never to experience anything further? Or are we in fact part of some grand cosmic play going on, in which we are souls on journeys, and come back again and again to learn lessons and move ever higher?

If we choose to believe that we are just a one-time shot, a life form that is alive here for a few years, then gone forever, we set ourselves up to be victims of the manipulators. During the Nazi takeover of Germany most of the Jews just accepted the ever increasing contol and manipulation of their lives there, and of course were then trapped within the final results. A few sensed what was coming and either refused to cooperate in their own enslavement or left the area. Regardless, the rest of the German people who bought into Hitler's philosophy and psychology learned bitter lessons in the end. If each German person who didn't believe they were being led along a good path had merely refused to participate in that bizarre scenario then it would have been possible to stop it early. But, by not challenging any of the unfolding manipulation they sealed their fate. That is all I am ever trying to say. Challenge the lies, at least, and if you have the energy and courage, expose the wizards. Or, ignore the warning signs and suffer the consequences. Most of us desire a peaceful life of good and plenty. When that desire becomes so strong we are willing to ignore some vital signs, and facts, we are just cooperating in being led to some other fate, not of our choosing. Again, the only defense is knowledge, not ignorance, and that applies to everything we experience here on earth, or throughout the cosmos for that matter. Reality is rarely what it seems, or what we wish it to be. In fact, wishful thinking is the path to darkness.

-- Anonymous, December 17, 2001



Diane, you were fine! ;^)

Gordon, the most basic problem I have with "our" being at least partly responsible for WTC is I can't imagine anything that "we" would be least likely to trash. Any other target, and I might have been skeptical. Even the Pentagon seems expendable. (Also, just law of averages, bound to be some disaster that "we" weren't responsible for..) However, if "we" did the WTC, then the money trail (who benefited) might be the answer. I do see that my skepticism over WTC isn't really any different than my friends' inability to wrap around the idea that we were involved in OKC.

I'm in the "one-time shot" camp. Might just mean I'm a "new" soul, and if so, why am I stuck with these particular lessons so early in the journey?

-- Anonymous, December 17, 2001


Brooks, all there is are lessons. That's it. Nothing more. Just lessons to acquire awareness and elevate consciousness. No, you are not a "new" soul, if you inhabit a human body. A new soul is found at level one awareness such as rocks, minerals and plant life.

If you want to choose to believe in a one-shot existence, fine, that's up to you in accordance with your free will. However, to do so you have to either ignore or deny all the stories about near death experiences, or attribute that to simple brain function/malfunction. Chemical disruptions of the brain, as it were. Many do believe that is the answer to those puzzling experiences.

Further, you have to ignore or deny the teachings of some of the greatest spiritual leaders of the past in areas such as Buddism or Hinduism, to name just two. And a one-shot philosophy leaves you with no satisfactory answers to the great mysteries and contradictions we see in our lives, and those around us, every single day. Personally, I used to think that one-shot was the most valid way to understand our existence. Now, I can't imagine why I chose to define reality in that very limited way, given all the spiritual and paranormal evidence to the contrary. However, it does take a major leap in deciding what is real and what is not. And it takes some period of time to adjust to thinking "outside" that limited awareness, and to come to grips with the astounding implications that are then revealed.

-- Anonymous, December 17, 2001


I was thinking I might be a "new" soul because I have never, ever experienced anything based on extrasensory perceptions. No premonitions that appeared to have any validity. For that matter, I have no personal experience leading me to believe there is such a thing as a soul. That's not the same as dismissing out-of-hand reports I hear from others. They have just never been real to me in any way.

-- Anonymous, December 17, 2001

Aw crap, nobody was offensive, except perhaps me! I get so fatigued sometimes and when you combine that with pedantism, it creates snotty. It's a bit of a British trait. We don't mean to be snotty, it just sounds that way. Well, some people mean to be snotty, and so do I sometimes, but not in this case.

It struck me that there might be some new people on the forum who wonder why we don't get into conspiracy theories, "chemtrails," and so on and I thought I should explain a little.

In short, there are innumerable forums on the net specializing in the whys and wherefores of life, just about all of which are populated by people with extensive knowledge. No point in duplicating those efforts and taking up a lot of space here. What you get here are the bits of tile forming the basic mosaic.

-- Anonymous, December 17, 2001


(Some of us ponder the imponderables anyway, but do so EVER so politely...)

-- Anonymous, December 17, 2001


Old Git, I didn't take your comments in any negative way, and you know I don't ever consider anything you say to be snotty. Never. Yes, this forum does provide a wealth of current information and, unfortunately, disinformation, but that's neither our fault or intent. When others look at the stories I'm sure they often wonder what is really going on since every story takes so many twists and turns. Even the posting that started this thread, regarding a video tape of bin Laden, has resulted in opposite reactions from various segements of our population, and world population. So when I post something that is an alternative view it is merely to keep that door open. We make our biggest errors when we think we understand what is going on at the highest levels of governments, military, and banking.

Brooks, regarding the Trade Center incident, I do not intend to lay the blame on our own doorstep. At least not all the blame, but I do think we are involved in some way that remains hidden from view. To get to base of it means to dig into the way things are run by someone, or some group, in order to achieve aims that are hidden. The Trade Center itself was not really a World trade center at all. That was the name, but not the function, of the majority of the occupants. So what happened there, and why, and who was behind it all? And I think we should seriously sense that bin Laden was not individually capable of such a complex, sophisticated, scenario any more than Lee Harvey Oswald was capable of planning out the JFK shooting, which also involved multiple "hits" during that exact moment in time.

-- Anonymous, December 17, 2001


Brooks,

Continuing, I don't believe you have never had any personal experiences of at least intuition or gut feeling that turned out to be correct. Everyone does. But if you have a longstanding predisposition to either ignore or discredit such "paranormal" events then they will be suppressed to you and you will receive less of them and/or doubt them as a reality. Even if you don't personally feel there is such a thing as a soul I would think you could at least pay careful mind to countless others who are able to relate compelling stories/evidence about such a matter. At least then you could admit it's a genuine possibility, which would open that door a little.

What I am trying to get at here is that things are going on in our lives that we do not control directly, that we are either unaware of or are being misled about. And always, behind the scenes is something far more ominous than we usually allow ourselves to consider. Let's just look at wars, battles, conflicts, that we are led into.

Viet Nam is a good one. What was that all about and who led us there? I think we can safely say it wasn't about communism, the domino effect, or any of the other publicly issued reasons we were given. Were we misled about that blood bath? Or what about the Contra business under Reagan? Was that about freedom fighters, or something else? And Desert Storm. Was that about Hussein and Kuwait and freedom? Or oil, and who controls it? Meanwhile we have always had huge supplies of natural gas right here in North America that could be used in place of oil in countless ways, even fueling our cars. Why are we not involved in natural gas technology, even as we speak?

If you can ever bring yourself to dig into the realities behind the public pronouncements being made you will surely have to finally admit that there is a lot of smoke and hoaxing going on. And we, the rank and file grunt population, are allowing ourselves to be hoodwinked into going along with the "official" policy handed down. So, the first step to becoming educated and aware is to look at the countless conflicts and then conclude there is a conspiracy to disinform us. At that point, when you are sure there is a very dark side to so many issues, you will be ready to ask the next questions.

Such as, who is behind all this manipulation, and why? It is when you start to dig into the who and why that things really start to get interesting and a light begins to shine into our awareness of some things that have been going on for countless years. All the same, generally, and all designed to manipulate and control us. And it works, and has worked brilliantly all over the globe. It is said that during all of recorded history there has been only a few days when there wasn't a war/battle/conflict going on somewhere. Wonder why? And don't you wonder how it is that we are so easily led into these wars? Except for a few protestors, the nation mostly either supports or tolerates these endless military or espionage operations. Why? And not just us here in the US. This sort of thing was happening in Europe before we even had our first colony here. Always the same plot.

-- Anonymous, December 17, 2001


"Even if you don't personally feel there is such a thing as a soul I would think you could at least pay careful mind to countless others who are able to relate compelling stories/evidence about such a matter. At least then you could admit it's a genuine possibility, which would open that door a little."

I think I must be doing at least that. And there is a bit of feeling of "oh sh!t" that I may have been so mistaken about things. Still, I can't force myself to believe in something. Mostly trying to live my life to minimize what harm I may be doing to others; that's how I would hope to be judged if there is to be any judgment. At any rate, I feel most connected when working in my garden. Can't explain it, but I'll grant there could be a larger force, just don't have a clue how I might relate to it.

"If you can ever bring yourself to dig into the realities behind the public pronouncements being made you will surely have to finally admit that there is a lot of smoke and hoaxing going on." I don't question there's a ton of smoke and hoaxing, and that's why I spend so much time on these boards. (Certainly can't discuss these things with people I know IRL.) I do question my ability to ever fully understand it. Y2K was my eye-opener for how we are being manipulated, since I had occasion to learn about it rather personally.

-- Anonymous, December 17, 2001


Brooks, yes, Y2k was a good example of manipulation of the public. That scenario could have gone either way I think. The thing that exposed it as a manipulation, for me, was the lack of serious effect regardless of the amount of money spent and work done. The old MS-DOS systems couldn't roll over correctly but it didn't actually stop the computer from doing a job. Just the date got screwed up. I have seen billing receipts even this year that have the date on the top listed as 1901. And one economics web site shows the date for current postings as the year 101. As in 12/17/101. When I look at their archives last year was listed as 100 and the previous year as 99. But still the material gets posted, just with a screwy date.

Further, while we were spending billions in the US, other countries were spending little or nothing and still they stayed up and running. So, there was a scam, or trick, of some sort being foisted on us. And I bought into it hook, line, and sinker. Then on Jauary 01, 2000, I realized I had been snookered. But why? Who was really behind all that razzle-dazzle? Certainly not Clinton, who stayed tight lipped the entire time, other than putting Koskinen out there for effect. And we did get nagging warnings that nothing was coming up seriously wrong in the power industry. My own power company spent a lot of time and money upgrading their billing software, but not their power side. I can understand now that billing errors would be a real headache to them but I had thought there was a real threat to generation and distribution. Nada. Anywhere in the world.

Still, my eventual reaction was to wonder how we had been taken down that particular path and why. Who was really behind the scare tactics and what group of people were targeted to be discredited? To lose all credibility with those they tried influence? Later I decided that the signal may have been the wrong one, Y2k, but that the preparation education would turn out to be good training. I still think we are going to suffer a catastrophy, economically, that the preps will help us through. That's my gut feeling, my intuition, and I think it will be sooner rather than later. We'll see. And you're right, the Internet has provided the ability to link up with, to "network" with, a lot of interesting information, data, and people who not only are concerned about a lot of basic issues but are willing to share their thoughts.

There are many conspiracies that have been talked about and exposed on the Internet that would have been very difficult to track down using only libraries in the past. And we can now get virtually instant feedback from authors themselves about their material. I had never realized how far the archeological academia would go to suppress discoveries that upset their previous theories and timelines. That's just one example of many areas that have been opened up, exposed, on the Internet that I would have missed otherwise.

-- Anonymous, December 17, 2001


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