I have just bought my first M6 (an LHSA - its simply beautiful). I was thinking of buying the two 'Millennium' painted lenses. Anyone have any opinions for a beginner whether they would be suitable for general use? I adore clarity in pictures - and someone suggested the 50/2 might be better than the 50/1.4.

Any ideas? I daresay you've all discussed this kind of thing ad nauseam - so thanks for your patience.

-- PD (pd100@hotmail.com), December 08, 2001

Answers

PD - that'a a rather general question! Do you mean you have a Leica body but no lens?!? The relative merits of a 'general' lens have been discussed repeatedly, especially last week. The upshot is virtually everyone here owns a 35 or 50 (or both) and opinion as to which is the best allrounder is quite evenly split. Either will do fine, I prefer a 35, indeed I find it perfect for 90% of MY type of photograpy - what sort of photography do you prefer?

The 1.4 vs 2.0 Summicron is also a frequent one, either lens will give you more clarity than you will probably ever need, but do you need the extra stop? If not buy the benchmark 50mm - the Summicron. As for black paint vs back chrome, etc, this is purely a question of asthetics. If you are a true beginner the Leica M's can be tricky to learn with as YOU must do all the work yourself - the learning process can be rather frustrating but ultimatly very satisfying.

-- Giles Poilu (giles@monpoilu.icom43.net), December 08, 2001.

There was one bit of advice: if you like to get up close to your subjects, then go with the 35. If you like to hang further back, the 50. It seems there's quite a consensus that the Cron is better than the Lux if you don't need the extra stop, altho' stopped down, they appear to be comparable. Also, others say that the .72 body seems best suited for the 35. And yet others think of the 50 as a short tele.

For more, check the My Next Lens section.

Ultimately, you'll just have to take the plunge and grab one. And you won't go wrong (i.e., you might be limiting yourself if you just walk around with the VC 12mm, or with the 135mm). You just might end up owning more lenses sooner than later.

-- Tse-Sung Wu (tsesung@yahoo.com), December 08, 2001.

There isn't a current lens in the Leica line up that isn't capable of images of exceptional clarity-and there better not be at the prices the stuff goes for! The 50mm f2.0 is likely the best 50mm f2.0 ever made, and perfectly useable at f2.0. Its supposed to be beter than the 1.4 set at f2.0, but by how much and whether you'd notice the difference is another story. I personally have the current f2.0 lens and have never seemed to need anything faster. Some folks seem to think the 35 f1.4 may be a better choice than the 50mm f1.4 if you decide you need a very fast lens.

-- Andrew Schank (aschank@flash.net), December 08, 2001.

PD, I have the latest 50 Summicron, and it is a great lens. But if you need 1.4, get the Summilux. I don't find that I need the extra stop. Both lenses have exceptional clarity. Older Leitz / Leica lenses are also wonderful, although the newer formulations have increased contrast at the wider apertures. Whatever Leica lens best fits your needs will be capable of giving you a lifetime of great photographs. My recommendation is to get out there and use your Leica, don't stick it on the shelf to only occasionally admire, but rarely take pictures. I've gone through periods of shooting different films - lately B&W, which is great, but then I shoot some transparencies, and I am blown away by the color rendition of these lenses.

-- David (pagedt@chartertn.net), December 08, 2001.

At the risk of getting flamed from the "cameras are just tools crowd", I'd like to ask that since you are asking about a lens for general use, what was your thought process on buying the future collectable LHSA camera and a painted lens?

The finish of the regular issue cameras and lenses are very well suited for actual use, and physiologically there should be no problems using them to their full potential. I would have trouble using a camera that I would always be mentally calculating the depreciation from every smudge or ding in the finish. I am asking this in all respect, and obviously I have no knowledge of your economic status (obviously better than mine), but for real picture taking, I'd rather have a plain old M6 and regular finished lens.

Towards your question, I find the 50mm Summicron to be everything a lens can be. It is fast enough for most situations, bitingly sharp from a single stop down from maximum, and has beautiful bokeh.

Again, I intended no disrespect... I was just curious on your choice for a "user" camera.

-- Al Smith (smith58@msn.com), December 08, 2001.

You might give yourself another alternative, although it's not available in a painted version. It is the new Tri-Elmar. Lack of maximum aperature speed can be very satisfactorily compensated for by using the great new high-speed films now available. Of course, much depends on the type of photography you enjoy. I find the Tri-Elmar very suitable for travel photography but I do intend to keep the other lenses. Hope this h

-- George L. Doolittle (geodoolitt@aol.com), December 08, 2001.

PD, what hasn't been mentioned yet is where you personally see the balance between the collectability of your black paint LHSA special edition and its actual use. The black paint 50mm f1.4 Summilux would look grand on the LHSA, and might be of higher value later than a anodized black Summicron. The collector's value, however, will diminish with signs of use.

As mentioned, beyond the aesthetics, opinions tend to be fairly equally split between the 'Lux and the 'Cron, depending on whether you need the extra stop. Personally, I opted for saving the $$ with the 'Cron, as I rarely need the extra stop.

-- Ralph Barker (rbarker@pacbell.net), December 08, 2001.

i think it is a good decision to use that camera. it is beautiful and probably pleases you therefore even more than the regular one. of course you loose value, but you gain pleasure. that's worth it.

-- stefan randlkofer (geesbert@yahoo.com), December 08, 2001.

PD, your Black Paint M6 will brass nicely with use. Like a badge of honor. Wear it out!

But, in my opinion, the regular black lenses look fine on the LHSA camera. Save the extra $$!

-- Steve Hoffman (shoffman2@socal.rr.con), December 08, 2001.

To Al's queston on the choice to spend the extra $$$'s on the painted version, I also use an LHSA camera. I bought it without any regard to collectability. I have no intention of cashing in on appreciation, should it even materialize. I simply like the appearance so much that it was worth it to me. I'm sure there are many who scoff, but feeling good about the camera, and watching its gradual brassing over the years, is just another tick on the Leica Photography experience meter. I have no problem with silver-chrome and black-chrome finishes, and I draw the line at painted lenses, but I just plain like my painted M6.

-- Ken Shipman (kennyshipman@aol.com), December 08, 2001.

Since this sitaution seems to have a heavy philosophical direction to it, I'd take the philosophical way out, and buy the best 50mm lens ever made, in the opinion of many, the 50/2. Sure the 1.4's a good lens, but it's an old design and not the ultimate 1.4 lens, the position held by the 50/2 in the 50/2 world.

-- Michael Darnton (mdarnton@hotmail.com), December 08, 2001.

I just don't think the cron is better than the lux, these who say that becasue they can not afford the lux, so they say so just to be comfortable, I would go lux all the way, 35 50 75. This way you can avoid the upgrade later.

-- Mitchell Li (mitchli@pacbell.net), December 08, 2001.

In black paint, I think only the 35/2, 50/2, and 50/1.4 are available.

-- Ken Shipman (kennyshipman@aol.com), December 08, 2001.

I always need the extra stop! But did fine with f2 also. Decide if you want eventually the 28/50/90 or 15/35/75 set ups.

-- Emile de Leon (knightpeople@msn.com), December 09, 2001.

I would choose the 50 Summilux. It's the perfect match for the LHSA M6, IMHO. Also, although the 'cron might be a little better in terms of clarity, when you need the extra stop the 'lux is the only solution - and don't forget, the 'lux is a very good lens with terrific bokeh. And there's always the Noctilux, of course!

-- Ray Moth (ray_moth@yahoo.com), December 09, 2001.

I would choose the 50 Summilux. It's the perfect match for the LHSA M6, IMHO. Also, although the 'cron might be a little better in terms of clarity, when you need the extra stop the 'lux is the only solution. (There's always the Noctilux, of course!)

-- Ray Moth (ray_moth@yahoo.com), December 09, 2001.

THANK YOU all for you tremendous responses. How encouraging that a beginner can glean such encouragement and information from enthusiasts and experts like you.

I bought the LHSA because it looks so nice - dignified, smart (in the English-English sense of the word) and inconspicuous - which seems appropriate for rangefinder photography. I thought I'd get the painted lenses not just because they look right but because they are the two most popular lenses (or so I'm told) as a 'starter pack' as it were. I'll be sad as the brass shows through despite arguments to the contrary - which, I know, is not very humanistic.

As you know, I'm no expert; I don't even know what 'bokeh' is (it's not in the Oxford Dictionary) and wonder why some lenses are called SummiLUX, other SummiCRON and so on. The principal uses for my lenses will be indoor family shots (I like close-ups) and groups and holiday - in the first instance. In fact, I'll shoot anything that helps me to learn.

I like learning - which is why all your words have been useful and heartening. Talking of learning, I got a copy of Leica World the other day - can anyone recommend a good book on the M6TTL (the instructions book is not very detailed) and a regular magazine on Leica?

Once again, may thanks to all you respondents.

-- PD (pd100@hotmail.com), December 09, 2001.

"I just don't think the cron is better than the lux, these who say that becasue they can not afford the lux, so they say so just to be comfortable" --I guess everyone is welcome to express their own opinion here, but this statement runs contrary to comprehensive test done both in the lab and out in the field. By the way, there are many folks who visit this site own the Summicron and could have afforded the Lux if they would have wanted one. Faster lenses are not always better, but they are always heavier.

-- Andrew Schank (aschank@flash.net), December 09, 2001.

PD- I recommend joining the LHSA whose magazine "Viewfinder" is a very well produced enthusiasts' publication. For a book on the M6TTL, I would suggest Jonathan Eastland's book which can be had from many bookstores, including Finger Lakes Books who have a large range of photography books and a website. Amazon will have it also.

-- Ivor Quaggin (iquaggin@rogers.com), December 09, 2001.

PD:

1. Summicron=f2 lens, Summilux=f1.4 lens, Elmar, Elmarit etc.=F2.8 or darker lens.

2. The LHSA is indeed a beauty. Wish I had the courage (and the dollars) to make something so pretty my workaday camera. Maybe if I could afford two... :-)

-- Mani Sitaraman (bindumani@pacific.net.sg), December 09, 2001.

Elmarit, 2.8; Elmar, 3.5 or 4, usually, except in the case of the 50/2.8.

-- Michael Darnton (mdarnton@hotmail.com), December 10, 2001.

I confess to being an owner of a LHSA M6 and two matching black paint lenses (50mm Summilux and 35mm f2 ASPH).

The question asked is: are they both suitable for general use? And the answer surely is: they most certainly are - indeed, their capability massively exceeds the demands of general use, and the differences between these optical jewels and other members of the Leica range are negligible for all but the most technically accomplished users.

Whether you buy standard lenses or black paint versions to match the body is entirely dependent on your taste and pocket. There is no optical difference. If you want - and can afford - the complete 'black paint' experience, snap them up while you can, and use them. Grow old with them, and resist the sad temptation to wrap them up in case they come by a scratch or two. Remember the old saying - 'a ship is safe in port - but what is a ship for?'

Keep an eye on eBay - there are Millennium black paint lenses to be had for what you may think is a reasonable premium over the cost of the standard version.

-- Paul Hart (paulhart@blueyonder.co.uk), December 27, 2001.

I'd put a Noctilux on the LHSA as a measure of protection. The larger lens is a bigger shield and if dropped, due to its weight would likely land lens first ;-). Seriously, though. I am glad you will use your LHSA. If I could afford it, I would consider it a sacred duty to keep it from the hands (or rather cabinet) of a collector. I vote 50/2 followed by 35/1.4.

-- Hil (hegomez@aol.com), December 28, 2001.

PD:

"I adore clarity in pictures" means, "I need a Summicron."

Summi= "the summit" ("highest achievement" asin "Summa Cum Laude")

Cron= "color" as in "chroma" etc.

Lux = "light" as in "Lux Aeterna" (eternal light)

Summicron = the highest achievement in correction of chromatic abberation, i.e., a sharp lens.

Summilux = the highest achievement in a fast lens (more light); the name having been coined before the Noctilux was developed.

You didn't say anything about wanting a very fast lens. You did say you value clarity.

Ergo, you're looking for a Summicron.

-- Bob Fleischman (RFXMAIL@prodigy.net), December 29, 2001.

PD -- as re Bob's last note above -- I've never heard such a great explanation in my life here. Bob is not only an expert, he is also a great poet. I myself never bought a 'lux because (in comparison to my 35 and 50 'crons here) I found the 'luxes too big, too heavy, and too expensive. They are not too speedy, but (for me) unnecessarily speedy. Only the 35 'lux's speediness has been found to be really warranted (because these are both ASPHs). That is why some people here prefer a 35 'lux over a 35 'cron. But most people here prefer a 50 'cron over a 50 'lux.

But Bob has already said that with a nicer choice of words.

-- Michael Kastner (kastner@zedat.fu-berlin.de), December 29, 2001.