I know that it seems like I am a spokesman for this LUG shooter, I am not... I just like his work, and hope that the Leica users here might want to look at the photos.

Rather than the B&W he normally shoots, this is an autumn color series, all at full aperture with the fast lenses in the M range. Please note, there are two pages.

Color work at full aperture

-- Al Smith (smith58@msn.com), November 29, 2001

Answers

Great work!

-- edward gaddi (edgaddi@yahoo.com), November 29, 2001.

I know "bokeh" is subjective and largely a matter of opinion, but I find the out of focus areas of some of these images to be unpleasant to my eye. Not as smooth as I would like.

-- Sanford (sanford@usa.com), November 29, 2001.

>>>
I know "bokeh" is subjective and largely a matter of opinion, but I find the out of focus areas of some of these images to be unpleasant to my eye. Not as smooth as I would like.
<<<

The Noctilux photos are the ones that have the harsh background bokeh IMHO. I find it distracting, esp. when compared with the creamy- smooth background areas of the 75 'lux.

-- Douglas Herr (telyt@earthlink.net), November 29, 2001.

Yuck!!

-- Wilhelm (bmitch@home.com), November 29, 2001.

Bokeh of the 75mm Summilux lens is much nicer than that of the Noctilux. I am surprised!

-- Muhammad Chishty (applemac97@aol.com), November 29, 2001.

Just goes to show ya, one can't believe everything one reads!

I'm truly surprised...

-- Steve Hoffman (shoffman2@socal.rr.con), November 29, 2001.

OK OK already, too much out of focus imagery all in one location. Makes me want to run outside and shoot a roll of film with my 35mm Summaron all at f11 or16!

-- Andrew Schank (aschank@flash.net), November 29, 2001.

The OOF leaves in some of those Noctilux shots are very distracting. On my monitor they're rendered as jangly blocky concentric circles. I think that may have put a final stake through the heart of my Noct envy.

Frankly, I've seen very few Noctilux images that have appealed to me. Most of them don't have the structural coherence that makes you say "nice image" as well as "great shot". The only ones that I like a lot are the ones in Ted Grant's book on doctors, "This is Our Work". Even there, it's the subject matter that carries the day, not the imaging properties of the lens.

The 75 is whole nother kettle of herring, though. Utterly gorgeous on the eye. Too bad it's so @#$!ing heavy.

-- Paul Chefurka (paul@chefurka.com), November 29, 2001.

Is it just me, or does the first image on this page look like the background is rotating?

-- Ron Buchanan (ronb@fusive.com), November 29, 2001.

75 LUX is a jewel of bokhe; does any one know if this lens was designed by Mandler, or is it a Wetzlar design?

-- r watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), November 29, 2001.

Ron, that's serious off-axis coma rearing its swilrly head.

My only problem with the 75 'lux is that it's so %*#@ing expensive. If someone out there has one that's getting too heavy for them, you're welcome to donate it to me. I can bear the load. . .

-- Mike Dixon (mike@mikedixonphotography.com), November 29, 2001.

Very beatiful shots, thanks! Indeed, in that particular Noctilux shot the bright ring in out of focus area is not especially pleasant, but in other cases (not in this link) it is ok. What surprised me -- a pronounced vignetting in Noct shots.

But all this observation come to mind only after the show. Very beautiful!

-- Andrey Vorobyov (AndreyVorobyov@yahoo.com), November 29, 2001.

Regardless of the Bokeh - the photos are (excepting the girl with hand on tree) just plain bad! Terrible viewpoint, cluttered, too far away, nearly every head bowed and looking away from camera. Simply a collection of typical (terrible) family snaps.

Just goes to show - thousand of dollars worth of glass does not a (decent) photographer make!

-- Giles Poilu (giles@monpoilu.icom43.net), November 29, 2001.

Ha ha! Giles, don't hold back, how do you really feel? :^)

-- Steve Hoffman (shoffman2@socal.rr.con), November 29, 2001.

The 75 is a Mandler design. Even though it's heavy, there's no way I'll part with mine. I like its look better than any other lens I have.

And yes, I share the feeling that these are snaps dressed up with pricey gear. But hey, it's a free world, and we all get to buy what we want.

-- Paul Chefurka (paul@chefurka.com), November 29, 2001.

Mike, is that really serious off-axis coma rearing its swilrly head? I would have thought that serious off-axis coma would show up in the in-focus parts of an image that are near the edges of the frame, but the Noct does very nicely with the things that are actually in focus.

This looks to me more like serious off-axis vignetting of circles of confusion. This is easiest to see in the out-of-focus highlights, where they're round in the middle of the image, but as you get closer to the edges and corners the circles start loosing the side farthest away from the image center (sort of like a waning moon). And when this happens to a busy background (like the leaves), you get that swirling effect.

-- John Morris (jtmorris@slb.com), November 29, 2001.

Wow, he has some seriously nice gear! 35 'lux, Noct., 75 'lux.

-- Dan Brown (brpatent@swbell.net), November 29, 2001.

I'm not a real 1/50 or 1.4/75 freak but I'll tell you what I feel. The shot positionings (left-right and/or up/down) are of course nice, but for the 75 'lux the subject-background focusing contrasts seem to me to be somewhat exaggerated and/or overdone, and for the Nocti definitely too much so. Whether or not this would have been better with more angular-ness between front and back background, I don't know. This, plus the well-known facts re physical deficiencies/discrepancies of both lenses are the reasons I don't want to get either lens. Taken together, however, all of these photographs all beautiful reminicences.

-- Michael Kastner (kastner@zedat.fu-berlin.de), November 29, 2001.

I wonder what version Noct this guy has? I thought the Noct bokeh was awfull too. The 75 'Lux was *MUCH* smoother. Maybe it is just his scans, or my monitor... Not impressed!

-- Jack Flesher (jbflesher@msn.com), November 29, 2001.

You guys are great. I posted this link ONLY because when I looked at it, the first thing I thought was how much more pleasing the 75mm shots were than the Noctilux as far as the background blur was concerned. I put this post here just to see if it was just my eye, but it seems like my impression was in agreement with most of the others here.

The photographer's previous work in B&W was pretty nice, but I think this series is simply using F/1.0 because it is there. The novelty of the fast lenses seems good on paper, but if shooting at f/1.0 rather than the more appropriate middle apertures is the result of justifying the purchase, I think I'll keep my Summicron and buy some film.

-- Al Smith (smith58@msn.com), November 29, 2001.

We should stop criticizing the contents of the shots and thank Al Smith for debunking another Leica myth. What beats me is why would anyone want to spend thousands of dollars, carry around all that unbalanced weight, and put up with all the abberations and light fall-off at the edges, for the sake of 1 stop? Thanks very much Al Smith

-- sait (akkirman@clear.net.nz), November 29, 2001.

1) Shinozuka uses the f/1 Noctilux.

2) RE swirling background: "All have won, and all shall have prizes!" - "Alice (in Wonderland" or "Through the Looking Glass", I forget which - either is appropriate to Noctilux images)

The Noctilux has 3-stop fall-off at the corners (another Mandler compromise to increase center performance - viz Puts' review).

3 stops of fall-off implies an effective aperture of f/2.8 at the corners. So the depth-of-field is substantially greater at the corners. I took some practice Noct shots with a camera-store bank of flourescent lights running across the top of the frame, well out-of-focus. The blur got skinnier and skinnier as the row of lights neared the corners - in effect the OOF blur became diamond-shaped.

In addition, as mentioned, the smaller aperture is also oval rather than round, since the edges of the film are looking through the lens at an angle. The long axes of the ovals always run perpendicular to the center of the image, (vertical at the sides, diagonal at the corners) acting like a circular 'motion blur' filter.

It's just part of the Noct look - it either works for you (or for a particular shot) or it doesn't.

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), November 29, 2001.

Very nice pix for the family album but......

-- Brooks (Bvonarx@home.com), November 29, 2001.

Regardless of the light fall-off or swirly nature of the out of focus areas, the Noct really stands out at f/1 for isolating the subject, particularly at the subject distances of these photos. I have never seen such remarkable examples of the subject standing so far away from the print. One must remember that when the Noct is used where no other lens coule even try, the vignetting or bokeh are hardly as notable as the captured details in the nearly non-existent ambient light. The Noct rules, no matter how many weird optical baddies it comes with. All these examples could have been taken with a cron, but I find this to be a revealing portrait of the Noct lens which is what, I think, this series was intended to be.

-- Tony Rowlett (rowlett@mail.com), November 29, 2001.

Al

Nice snapshots there but nothing more. Regardless of which lens was used and what the quality of the out of focus highlights, there is nothing compelling about these images. It has very little to do with the glass, it's just that these images are suitable for ones photo album, not for artistic critique.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), November 29, 2001.

Love the 3-dimensional quality those pics. I just don't recall seeing that effect with my Canon or Nikkor lenses.

Speaking of bokeh and fall colors, how's this:

http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=451270

Taken with an M6 and 50 Summicron.

-- Peter B. Goldstein (peter.goldstein@us.cgeyc.com), November 29, 2001.

Peter, I love that shot. "All I want for Christmas is my two front teeth."

-- Paul Chefurka (paul@chefurka.com), November 29, 2001.

Guys:

I had an odd thought on this one... My Noct shots (as well as many others who have posted here like Tony) have IMO *outstanding* bokeh. However, I rarely use my Noct during daylight hours... Lets assume this photographer was using a slow film like Velvia. The images he is taking appear to me to be mostly lit by the sun. Lets give him a break and assume his autumn sun is f11, not f16. Hence a proper exposure would be 1/50 @ f11 with Velvia, or even stretch a bit more and say 1/30 @ f11... Problem is this equals 1/4000 @ f1. Hard to do on an M. So, I must assume he used some kind of ND filter or perhaps a polarizer, or perhaps a Hexar.

Soooo, my question is, if a filter was used is it possible that this contributed to the nasty bokeh?

-- Jack Flesher (jbflesher@msn.com), November 29, 2001.

Andy: "At last the Dodo said, 'All have won, and all must have prizes.' "

--Alice in Wonderland.

-- Bob Fleischman (RFXMAIL@prodigy.net), November 29, 2001.

Oops. It's "Everybody has won, and all must have prizes."

-- Bob Fleischman (RFXMAIL@prodigy.net), November 29, 2001.

Jack, good point. The site tells: "Film: Fuji Reala 100". On the other side, I cannot believe that illumination (e.g. for Noct. shots on the 1st page) was below 11 EV. Even if there was a light haze over the sun, it must be rather 12-14 ev. At f/1 it requires at least 1/4000. The photographer could overexpose the film, but not so far. Thus I support the version with filter. May be 2 stacked filters?

-- Andrey Vorobyov (AndreyVorobyov@yahoo.com), November 30, 2001.

I can agree that the Noctilux photos have a strange out of focus- rendition in some pictures. The Hasselblad CF80 can also give very strange o.o.f.r with some backgrounds (such as branches) but very pleasing with others. It's a matter of getting to know a lens by using it. I'm sure the Noctilux can give great looking background blur too.

By the way, what's wrong with "snapshots"? Some of the worlds most moving photographs belong to the snapshot category. To me, a snapshot is just a picture taken at the spur of a moment, and which includes both one or more easily identifiable subjects (mostly people) in the action of doing something. HCB comes to mind as a great snapshooter.

-- Peter Olsson (peter.olsson@lulebo.se), November 30, 2001.

I just love his photography with both the Lux and the Nocti. I agree I've seen nicer bokeh, even from a nocti, but to dismiss a picture because of the bokeh is a bit odd. I have a picture backhome, that I will upload and share with the group later that will has ugly bokeh, but to an extent where is becomes really really distracting. I don't think these shots are there and I also think that the vingetting helps cover it up a bit.

What is left are shots that directly lead the eye to the points of interest of the pictures which I consider to be nice. Great work Rei

-- Bas Wip (bas@baswip.com), November 30, 2001.

I am a VERY new Leica user but I really like these shots. I saw the pictures as about people (children) in their environment. They are full of joy and colour and the central subjects are very sharp. So I got a strong sense of the child in each photograph, happy in his or her world.

I'm a former Olympus (OM40) and Minolta and Canon (fully automatic) user and whilst I appreciate the incredible sharpness of the Leica lenses, pictures full of totally sharpe detail aren't always what I want to look at. The colour and vibrancy of these pictures is great.

-- Kate Sommerville (scully122@iprimus.com.au), November 30, 2001.

I am a VERY new Leica user but I really like these shots. I saw the pictures as about people (children) in their environment. They are full of joy and colour and the central subjects are very sharp. So I got a strong sense of the child in each photograph, happy in his or her world.

I'm a former Olympus (OM40) and Minolta and Canon (fully automatic) user and whilst I appreciate the incredible sharpness of the Leica lenses, pictures full of totally sharp detail aren't always what I want to look at. The colour and vibrancy of these pictures is great.

-- Kate Sommerville (scully122@iprimus.com.au), November 30, 2001.

I really like the excellant use of color and bokeh in this photographer's rendition of his family, especially those made with the 75 'lux!

However, I do find the aesthetic criticism of these photographs somewhat out of place, since the photographer didn't submit them to us for our review, Al did. I also question the commentaries diminishing the value of these photographs just because some view them as snapshots. What's wrong with using a Leica to make with snapshots anyway? I often use mine for snaps and encourage anyone else to do the same if they're so inclined!

-- Ken Prager (pragerproperties@worldnet.att.net), December 02, 2001.