Is it just me, or is everyone loaded? Quite alot of people in this forum seem to have endlessly deep money bins, as they have several M's and countless lenses. Not to mention the travelling for those that globe-trot and obviously the film and processing & printing on top. For the pro photogs, I can understand as they have a good charge out for their assignments and it's their livelihood. For the rest of us I assume its a real passion, and I sometimes am grateful I don't have too much other financial commitments (eg. like a wife or kids) which can circumvent my spending on Leica equipment and travelling. But I sometimes wonder, because it can be expensively addictive. How do some of you afford it? Maybe I need to switch careers or clue up on some high-earning investment tips which can fund my hobby.

-- sparkie (sparkie@mailcity.com), November 28, 2001

Answers

PS. Point Break comes to mind..fantasy, pure fantasy!

-- sparkie (sparkie@mailcity.com), November 28, 2001.

I save mainly on auto expenses. Having a background in heavy duty mechanaics (I used to work on bulldozers and the such) I am confident buying used vehicles. So, for example, 3 years ago I bought a 6 year old VW Jetta, paid $7000.00 (Canadian) cash, and don't have a monthly payment or lease payment. It's a great car and I'd rather pump that $300-$400 a month into cameras and other stuff............

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), November 28, 2001.

I'm not loaded, I just steal all my equipment. As my uncle once told me, "Free is the best price."

-- ??? (LEICA_THIEF@HOTMAIL.COM), November 28, 2001.

salon.com once did an article called "The 7 Habits of Highly Creative People" (spoofing a book called "the 7 habits of highly successful people"). One of those habits was DEBT. I dont know if i'm highly creative, but i DO know that i've at least mastered one of the seven habits!

-jeremyT, lifeinblue.com

-- jeremyT (jerthomas@lifeinblue.com), November 28, 2001.

Sparkie - relax, buy old (but certainly better built) equipment. I currently use an M4P (Ģ600) and a 3rd generation 35mm Summicron (Ģ325). That is ALL you need to enjoy the Leica experience. So many people seem to have to have the latest TTL body, four lenses, grips, motors etc. They must spend more time changing lenses than taking photos. The M way is simplicity - one body, one lens. Revel in the perfection and versatility that this combination allows.

-- Giles Poilu (giles@monpoilu.icom43.net), November 28, 2001.

Sparkie-

I agree with Giles. One body, one lens, usually one film. Keep things simple, and not just in photography either. Can you imagine how many "white elephants" sit neglected on shelves all over the world?

The only beneficiaries here are the makers of the elephants, not the keepers thereof. Aside from the philosophical crap, keeping your gear simple will make you a better photographer, I believe.

-- jeff voorhees (debontekou@yahoo.com), November 28, 2001.

I have done very well finding very good deals on used Leica gear . It is out there just be paciant , and stop in at every camera shop you come acrossed , and be up on how to check out older equipment .

-- Charles C. Stirk Jr. (ccstirkjr@yahoo.com), November 28, 2001.

Sparkie,

Leica equipment isn't that expensive, given the case that you buy the used equipment from those people who invest tons of money to get the newest lenses. Used lenses usually offer more than most Leica photographers can bear ;-) Only then I'd bother upgrading them.

I currently have 3 nice lenses for my Leica and a body which didn't cost me too much: A Summaron 35/2.8, a Hexanon 50/2 and a Elmar-C 90/4 together with a M2 did cost me at about 1000 US$. All very fine performers, and who said it has to be the fastest glass ? I'd rather invest in a small tabletop tripod and spend some time looking for better-lit objects.

OTOH you pay 200$ for monthly golf club membership in Germany, so why not buy a Leica lens every year, some film and stop golfing ?

Kai

-- Kai Blanke (kai.blanke@iname.com), November 28, 2001.

Sparkie:

While Leica photography seems like a wealthy person's folly, I think it boils down more to ones priorities...

I mostly buy used camera equipment like others have mentioned. I am not afraid to try out different high-end equipment, because if it was bought right used, it is generally easy to sell it without loss. (Fortunately my wife understands this too, and gives me broad leeway in making these transactions!) I do not own a Porche, Mercedes, BMW or other expensive car. We eat at home primarily, and dine out occasionally. I don't gamble, do drugs, or drink excessively -- although when I do drink, it is quality stuff. I am not a philanderer. Nor do I need to visit a therapist once a week to keep my sanity, as photography IS my therapy as well as my passion. Perhaps this is also my justification for partaking in it to excess, but I do not spend my hard-earned money frivolously on other luxury items; my priority is photography.

-- Jack Flesher (jbflesher@msn.com), November 28, 2001.

How I afford Leicas: 1) drive an 18-year-old car on which I do most of the repairs/maintenance, 2) stay single, 3) live in a modest apartment (great neighborhood, though), 4) very seldom eat out, and 5) only buy used (generally "user" grade) equipment. And I'm still constantly broke. . .

-- Mike Dixon (mike@mikedixonphotography.com), November 28, 2001.

I agree with several of the other posters-- I actually got into photography as an alternative to my previous hobby-- gun collecting. I figured photography would be less expensive, and I would able to do it anywhere, whenever I wanted. I was half right. I have gone through a lot of equipment over the last few years, but enjoyed doing so. I have had no problem going with used equipment, and being patient while looking for what I want. I have also used the same strategy I used when collecting guns-- when I come across a really exceptional deal, I will take it-- even if it is on a piece of equipment I may not need. I then trade or sell, and slowly work my way toward something I may need. But the process is something that I enjoy as well. I have tried different systems, found I didnt like them, and suffered no loss. Im just now at the point of thinking "less is more" and started divesting myself of a lot of stuff. The deals are out there, it just takes patience. Besides, camera can only hold one lens at a time. Best,

-- Marke Gilbert (Bohdi137@aol.com), November 28, 2001.

A famous economist once said "There's no accounting for taste," and he was right. Every individual has different priorities, as well as different budget constraints, and so some of us end up using Leicas, some using Nikons, while some own Porsches, some spend lots of money on wine, etc.

-- Douglas Kinnear (douglas.kinnear@colostate.edu), November 28, 2001.

I think the key here is most people are not spending inordinate amounts of money on gear. If you use what you buy, regularly, however, the price is well worth it. In the long run buy quality and you save money is an old adage still true. The hidden savings is most people here are taking pictures or trying to find out how to do it better and that, apparently, just does not leave enough time to fritter the money away on fast cars, wild women, lavish meals and drink. Best regards.

-- Bob Haight (rhaigh5748@aol.com), November 28, 2001.

I don't have a license, so have never driven and only my husband has a car. I bought my M6 a year ago, having decided to upgrade from a Minolta HiMatic 11, a range finder that was made in 1969, and with which I was perfectly happy until I started to do black and white. One camera, one lens, with luck and a year of hard work and saving a second before Christmas, a 28mm. Black and white film, access to a dark room, developing and printing myself, and using this treasure the M6, it has to be a passion, and it is. Don't ski, sail, golf, ride horses, drive cars, fast or otherwise, or many of the other things that are "holes you pour money into". All right, good wine, but that is a local product here. ;-) How do I afford it? With great care and a lot of love.

-- Margaret (fitz@neptune.fr), November 28, 2001.

I've bought CLEAN used gear in Both Leica and Rolliflex(TLR) for many years. If you do this, and keep in pretty much the condition you got it, you can't go wrong. Chances are it will appreciate in value. One good strategy is to get to know a few of those people who always MUST have the latest, newest, spiffiest, and trade it every year or so (but who seem to take few photos). Currently I have 5 Leica M bodies, all pretty much "mint", the last (and most expensive) one bought in the late 70's for $275. Personally I favor cameras that don't need batteries, and don't consider the newer "features" worth the aggravation of depending on the battery.

-- George (Truebadger@aol.com), November 28, 2001.

Hey!! Who says wild women are a waste of money?!?

sorry, couldn't resist . . . ; )

-- Mike Dixon (mike@mikedixonphotography.com), November 28, 2001.

Most of my equipment was purchased used. Its amazing. Once new equipment leaves the showroom floor it depreciates at least 30% on the spot. I only have 1 ASPH lens (the 24 which is quite unpopular compared to the 21 so it was easy to acquire at a good price) and all my other lenses are used previous generation lenses. I don't feel to need to own the latest and the greatest in terms of Leica gear (and in retrospect I wish I had the older M6 (non ttl) bodies) because there are limits as to how well I can imitate a tripod.

If you spread your purchases out over a long period of time and don't mind the equipment that is "user grade EX-EX+ with the little dings" you will find yourself saving beaucoups $$$$$.

I think that as long as your a user and not a collector looking for that immaculate red-dial IIIg or M6J a comprehensive M system can be acquired at a reasonable cost.

...and on top of that I get a Christmas card from my Bank's branch manager every year. So there are other perks too.... ;-)

-- John Chan (ouroboros_2001@yahoo.com), November 28, 2001.

Photography has been my passion for about 30 years. I do not own a fancy home or expensive automobiles. I have had a reasonably successful career in instrumentation sales which has allowed me sufficient income to fund my creative outlet. I have a wife and children (2 of 3 through college so far) who admittedly are my top priority. I buy Leica equipment for the images produced, although I admit that I am enough of an equipment geek to delight in the craftsmanship of the products. I was introduced to Leica rangefinder equipment by a friend who produced the most exquisite images with pre-war screw mount cameras and lenses, and who named his daughter "Leica". I have owned other camera formats and systems, but I receive my greatest enjoyment from producing quality results from the tiny postage stamp sized negative / positive.

-- David (pagedt@chartertn.net), November 28, 2001.

...named his daughter "Leica".

Hmm... perhaps I will name my future children Elmar or Hektor...

-- Richard (rvle@bellatlantic.net), November 28, 2001.

Once again, thanks, Mike.

-- John Fleetwood (johnfleetwood@hotmail.com), November 28, 2001.

Me... I'm just loaded :)

-- Eric Reid (eric_reid@lkshore.com), November 28, 2001.

Mike: I prefer this one:

;-)

-- Jack Flesher (jbflesher@msn.com), November 28, 2001.

Buy used. My used stash (2 bodies, 5 lenses, 1 finder) cost about $6800, equivalent new would be about $11500. Pretty close to half price. Actually I did get the 21 'new' at a closeout discount as the ASPH came in - had I waited and bought used at today's prices I'd have saved another $9000.

Over 20 years - the time I hope to keep using them - and adding in something for maintenance/repairs, that comes to under $500 a year - not much more than a monthly car payment.

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), November 28, 2001.

As I have told several of my friends, "it's not the amount of discretionary income I've got, it's the lack of discretion."

Buy good stuff, use it well, keep it in good shape, add as you can afford and need. Over time you'll have too much equipment too.

-- Godfrey (ramarren@bayarea.net), November 28, 2001.

Thanks, Jack! But your choice was taken with a Canon 55mm/f1.2 FL-mount lens on an F1. I try to keep my gratuitous photo posting at least mildly relevant. . .

-- Mike Dixon (mike@mikedixonphotography.com), November 28, 2001.

my tip: graduate with distinctions and have generous parents

-- stefan randlkofer (geesbert@yahoo.com), November 28, 2001.

Mike,

could you show the bankteller again?

Thanks!

-- Hans Berkhout (berkhout@cadvision.com), November 28, 2001.

Sparkie,

What you seem to be missing is proper rationalization skills:

"This lens can only appreciate in value"

"For everything else, there's Master Charge."

"I need this to make sure my creativity won''t be limited by mediocre gear."

"It's a good investment--better than the stock market."

"I work hard, I deserve it."

"So who are they making Leicas for in the first place, if not for people like me who appreciate it."

"I should strike while the iron is hot, and get this used item before someone else grabs it. Otherwise I'll kick myself later."

Review this list every night and before walking into the camera store.

-- Bob Fleischman (RFXMAIL@prodigy.net), November 28, 2001.

Don't forget that many of us have been doing this for 30 or 40 years...or more! After you have spent maybe years acquiring "critical mass" it's not so expensive as you might think to sell-and-buy your way into other equipment. Sort of like paying off your first house, and trading your way into other houses after that. It's not that we're all so filthy rich, it's more often that we have simply invested many, many years getting to this point. Patience!

-- Ken Shipman (kennyshipman@aol.com), November 28, 2001.

Sparkie:

Great philosophical question. Should be in the Phiilosophy of photography forum as well.

I happen to be lucky enough to have a job that "forces" me to travel a lot, so that answers one question.

I am also lucky enough with that job to have some discretionary income, totally disproportionate to my discretion, as alluded to above.

BUT, the main thing is I/we have an eye for a bargains, such as the Zorki 4K with the 50mm F2 Industar (AKA Zeiss Sonnar) for a total of Ģ25 a few years ago in a quaint little camera shop in Lincoln England, as well as doing favours, such as referring cutomers to camera dealers who then give me price breaks on user Leica stuff and LF cameras. Somewhere Phil Greenspun documents Bill Gates' family carrer as receiving several mllion in inheritance just as the legit finances ran out. There are a few of those kind, as well as guys who hustle stocks, wear red suspenders and drive Porsche Boxters here in Singapore which sets one back a cool Million bucks.

I venture to say there are enough rock stars, sports millionaires and Queens of England, not to mention oil sheiks and sons of Indonesian presidents, to buy commemorative Leicas to keep the company alive and the used market flowing with toys they have grown tired of. One of the above correspondents mentioned in a private note the theft the other day of a big load of Leica stuff that will no doubt find its way into the "legit" world appropriately laundereed for a favourable price and someone will gleefully rejoice in a "new" M6 for $500.

The world of photography is replete with addicts, (and it is truly an addiction -recursive, self-destructive, mood-altering behavior) who sacrificed a "normal" life for their passion: O. Winston Link comes to mind.

Seriousy, it is priorities. My friends and co workers have "nice" houses in "nice" suburbs with $20 000 dining room suites and a Lexus SUV for the wife to waddle off to do her chores in, and buy $1000 suits or business casual outfits, but many of us are minimalists in our lifestyles to support Leicas and in my case, home-made or purchased-in-China-made-in-China, hi-end sound systems.

Believe it out not, I also have a sort of squirrel-derived saving system that from time to time allows purchases of things that would not be possible out of regular cash flow. And also in my case, I believe in living my retirement now, putting away only minimal amounts for "The Retirment" and grabbing the day. When the time comes that the fun is over, I will "exeunt, stage left" knowing that I had fun and didn't burden my descendents, nor spoil them with enough money for them to buy Leicas.

Not that there is any comparison AT ALL, but Mozart gambled obsessively to the extent that his health suffered, he died broke and prematurely at 36, and is buried in an unknown mass grave. BUT the universe would be so much poorer if he had lived a "straight" life as a dutiful court composer to the Archbishop of Salzburg.

A lot of rambling, but you pushed the button and that's what came out.

Cheers

-- RICHARD ILOMAKI (richard.ilomaki@hotmail.com), November 28, 2001.

The expense is bearable over ten or twenty years, though it really does seem inordinate when you are 20 or 30 years old and just starting out in your earning career. Remember, people go ski, go for vacations, restore sports cars etc. etc. all on regular salaries and regular jobs. A couple of M bodies and 3-4 lenses costs but a fraction of the cost of that kind of free-spending lifestyle in the long run.

The real answer? Save up for what you want, once you are sure you want it. Trust me, compared to most hobbies/lifestyles/sports the long run cost of Leica equipment is not that great. $10,000 of Leica equipment (2 bodies plus 5-6 lenses) or what you would basically acquire and use in 20 years, is a monthly cost of $40 over that time. People spend more than that on Cable TV, never mind smoking.

But if you want it NOW, then it certainly seems very expensive :-)

-- Mani Sitaraman (bindumani@pacific.net.sg), November 28, 2001.

Sparkie:

I agree with the bulk of the postings to date. I have owned Leica's for 30 years and still have all of that equipment. I have added new and used recently as buys show up. I sent a couple of 40 year old lenses in for cleaning recently, but most of my expenses are for film and processing. I have a family and we live modestly, but everything is paid for. What we save on interest pays for some of my habits. We rarely eat out, but we read a lot. Determine your priorities, then put your money in that direction. A car payment is $300+ per month and part of that is interest that could be spent on film, travel or equipment. Cheer up, the cameras last a long time, but money doesn't.

--MJ

-- Mark A. Johnson (logic@gci.net), November 28, 2001.

I just don't spend money on other stuff like a nice car or Italian suits etc. Also get the best of the best and use it for 30 years. Amortized it comes out to be cheaper than a Lubitel if you use it twice and throw it away.

-- ray tai (razerx@netvigator.com), November 28, 2001.

We may all be dead in ten years from comets striking the earth or anthrax or boredom. So, take a gamble with AMEX or VISA and stock up on the stuff you really want. I can think of nothing worse than being in some stinkin job for 20 or 30 years while you put your NEED for good Leica equipment on hold. Hew to some strange savings plan only to die from a stroke the day before you were ready to plunk down the cash for a Solm's product. As the Buddha and the Jedi Knights both said, "live in the moment" and I would add, "with an M6 and a bucket of lenses".

Do it now.

Kirk

-- kirk r. tuck (kirktuck@kirktuck.com), November 28, 2001.

How do you afford Leica? I'm in debt up to my eye's with my new m6ttl and 35mm summicron. Its been worth it. I was a commercial photographer that stop taking pictures after work because it became my job instead of the fun. I use to have fun when I went to photo school and the Leica and that one lens is making me think about photos again. Does anyone want to buy my F-100 and 20mm AF & 24-85 mm AF / Mamiya M7 150mm&65mm my VISA will love you.

-- Scott (scottevans@mediaone.net), November 28, 2001.

Buy only what you need, you can't go wrong. If you don't have the money consider your debt a mortgage and pay it off gradually.

Leica use and ownership becomes a way of life, it's a necessary tool.

Some time ago during a trip to Europe, I asked my Dad (then 90 years old) if I could borrow his 35 mm: sure he said, here you are. And he handed me a 1.4/35 Asph! Brand new, just got (bought) it for his birthday. Now he is shoppng for a new 1.4/50, for his 94th birthday.

So what I mean is that you can enjoy Leica stuff for years on end-at least 70 years in my Dad's case. He started out with a simple used one lens Leica unit years ago, loved to use it, gave me a used M2 for my 18th birthday which is 40 years ago, and I know that I am hooked for life. Great, I am always anxious to go out and get the shots.

-- Hans Berkhout (berkhout@cadvision.com), November 29, 2001.

So what do you do if you like classic cars and classic watches as well as classic cameras and travel? Dangerous! Help! But I really think the greatest waste of money is newer and newer technology which is not necessarily any better at all. How much did your computer cost compared with your camera? How long will each one last?

-- David Killick (dalex@inet.net.nz), November 29, 2001.

I'm glad to read these responses. When I first started peeking in here, I assumed everyone was a wealthy, established MD or dentist, in the prime of their life, their mortgages almost paid up, vacation home, the big sedan, the whole works. Like some of those authors in the LHSA newsletter sound: [authoritative Oxbridge accent, classical music in the background] "Here's an analogy. For me, taking the little known 1978 (11911) 3rd version Canadian Panda Military edition of the Arculux 52.5mm/f2.3 lens for a day of shooting is just like jumping into my 1955 Porsche roadster for a spin along the Riveria before lunch." ;-)

But I guess since I invested into it, about 3 years out of grad school, heck, it can't really be so out of the ordinary.

As everyone has been saying, it's where's your priorities is. I haven't bought a new piece of equipment since buying a P&S a few years ago- everything else has been used. I hate Big Shopping, don't own a TV, have my work provide my computer + web access, and like cheap thrills (hiking, biking, bopping around town) and cheap eats- easy in Berkeley or Chinatown. I had a friend also out of grad school (PhD in CS) living in San Francisco (just before and during the dotcom boom), paying something like $1500 for his one bedroom in a house shared w/someone else, when you can get decent digs for about a third of that. That's where his priorities are, and, PhD or not, I don't think he saved much. Or my cousin, just recently out of college- his parents bought him a $40K BMW, which does exactly what my POS does: gets me from point A to point B. These Hong Kong-ified relatives all look at me funny and wonder why I don't dress better or wear a fancy watch. They see my Leica, they ask me how much it was, and then they understand.

But, IMNSHO, I would keep the credit cards out of the equation.

How funny- a thread on what tradeoffs people make in order to own a camera. What better way to see how amateur is related to amare, to love.

-- Tse-Sung (tsesung@yahoo.com), November 29, 2001.

"So what do you do if you like classic cars and classic watches as well as classic cameras and travel? Dangerous! Help! "

1. No help necessary if you are rich.

2. If you are not rich, try a) becoming a doctor in the USA or b) becoming a lawyer in same or c) becoming an investment banker anywhere.

Based on observing friends, c) seems the easiest to get to, especially if you have the gift of the gab.

The catch? All three routes to sure money will leave you with no time to use that Leica.

O, cruel life in the Western world!

One has to endure the pain of choosing to either make money or to have fun...

[Lest I set off a firestorm, all advice offered tongue-in-cheek]

-- Mani Sitaraman (bindumani@pacific.net.sg), November 29, 2001.

Sparkie, you are not alone !

Most posters here have slowly put together their systems, upgrading and broadening scope depending on professional successes accumulated outside of the photo world. A lot of them trade 2nd hand most of the time, and 2nd hand Leica does not loose value, on the contrary.

But some here visibly enjoy illimited funds. One of our friends on this list in particular presents himself as an amateur, and claims owning full Leica R system(s) (with almost ALL the top end unaffordale exotic pieces and full redundancies in bodies); full leica M system(s) (with almost ALL the top end unaffordable exotic pieces and full redundancies in bodies); extensive Nikon AF system with top end lenses and bodies (F5 and C°); 6x9 Horsemann; hasselblad; rolleiflex. A whole series of pro Metz flashguns. And that is only what I remember. I'm not sure this equipment helps him to take any pictures (i believe he does not actually have the time to take pictures), but it sure enables him to "contribute" to every single thread refering to anything Leica (and beyond) with so-called first hand knowledge (sometimes really "deep" and technically sophisticated posts). I let you calculate the intensity of the investment, knowing that most Leica lenses he refers to have started to be produced less than 4 years ago...

Such "contributors" appear here and there periodically. I remember a couple of years ago a guy who squatted newsgroups in a very similar fashion. I calculated that his then current hardware investment, based on what he proclaimed owning and using, was nearing the half million bucks... My bet is that he was nothing more than a compulsive poster, cutting and pasting under the first person guise pseudo- knowledge gathered through readership of the various photo media and on-line communities. Anyway, his nickname vanished from the radar screen.

So do not worry about all this; learn to decypher and to recognise real experience from fraud.

Personally, I afford my basic Leica setup, films and processing by eating less food (meat twice a week), buying less clothes (1 suit and 2 pairs of shoes in the last 3 years), travelling less far and using tent and sleeping bag most of the time. And I do earn a very reasonable salary by continental Europe standards.

-- Jacques (jacquesbalthazar@hotmail.com), November 29, 2001.

At least with Leicas, once you've acquired what you need, the only continuing cost items are film and processing. (Yes, I know lots of people keep spending on gear but they don't really need to). Many other hobbies entail considerable ongoing costs.

Leica acquisition costs can be quite reasonable, as others have said, if you are happy with used gear. At least you can feel some comfort in the fact that Leica products give service and are still repairable for decades. R lenses in paricular are a lot cheaper used than new, especially those designs that have been superseded, the 180/3.4 APO- Telyt-R being a good example. If you look at postings to Leica mailing lists, as well as this Forum, you'll see many threads discussing old cameras and lenses, simply because many members are not able to afford the latest products, much as they would like to.

-- Ray Moth (ray_moth@yahoo.com), November 29, 2001.

How do I afford it? Now that I've got a wife and kids, I sold all the Nikon stuff I collected (and used) over 30 years. That has allowed me the TTL and two new lenses. All of the perfection and diversity I had had over those 30 years I can now get all in one day.

-- Michael Kastner (kastner@zedat.fu-berlin.de), November 29, 2001.

This question was a great one, the answers are wonderful, hope for some more ...

But I would like to see more photos of MIKE DIXON!

Those where the pics I wanted to take when I was much younger. But I could not because they didnīt let me or I didnīt dare to get close enough.

All the hunt after new gear is partially a substitute for getting close to those beautiful motifs, isnīt it?

Best wishes

-- K. G. Wolf (k.g.wolf@web.de), November 29, 2001.

I always the rule of thumb went like this: "If you don't spend a whole lot more money on film than equipment, there's no way you can justify owning that stuff."

The question then becomes "how cay you afford all the film you burn?" For me the answer is that it gets subtracted off the lump I have before dividing to figure out how long I'll be able to travel for.

Of course digital will change all this...

-- Michael Abbott (web@mabot.com), November 29, 2001.

I have read every single response and I have gone through quite a lot of emotions. I have laughed, chuckled and been humbled by your appropriate, realistic, worldly and philosophical postings. In combination, it has touched on some of the real key points that made me post this in the first place. From Richard Ilomaki's 'The Retirement' - of how you plan out your financial strategy for the 'Golden years' as well as having your Leica cake now (or should I say slices of the Leica cake) at the same time; while also travelling now and then, drinking good wine, eating good food and having a quality lifestyle. To Bob Fleischman's rationalization skills which made me laugh no end, but the one on his list that pressed my rationalisation button was: "I work hard, I deserve it." Through to Mike Dixon's ever incisive choice of photos that make you wish YOU were behind HIS camera while he was taking photos of that *ahem* fine specimen, and the reason you bought the Leica in the first place: to take great images.

I myself am a graphic designer and I earn an okay income when there's projects going. I don't drive a car, I have a mortgage but I don't live in my flat, I rent it out-which almost covers the interest and capital. I have all the clothes I really need, don't smoke, don't go night clubbing or drinking lots of alcohol. But I do love eating well, the odd good bottle of wine, travelling, taking photos (still learning) and grabbing a movie now and then. So it all boils down to priorities like alot of you have said. I'm 32 now and have an M6ttl with a 90'cron AA and 35'cron A, and both the Minilux and Minilux Zoom. I am about 2 years into the Leica bug so I'm a junior compared to the wealth of knowledge and experience in this forum. I don't intend on buying any more equipment other than maybe a 0.58 for my 35 cron and that will round out my kit. 2 bodies, 2 lenses. No equipment redundancy.

Its comforting to know that many of you here are 'real' people with real jobs etc..but with the same passion. It's great company to be in. I am always impressed by the patience, politeness and passing of knowledge in this forum to the less experienced such as myself. And am very thankful indeed. Finally as Kirk Tuck said, which deep down is what I am believing in more and more: live in the moment. Buy what will make you happy. Life is short, and nothing struck me more than 4 years ago when I was in Egypt. I was at the Saqqara pyramid (about a 3 hour camel ride from the Giza pyramids). It is the oldest pyramid in Egypt. Seven thousand years old and still standing. I compared that to our life expectancy on this planet and it dawned on me I was but a tiny little speckle of sand, a blink in the passing of time. So live in the moment. Nothing brings me more joy and satisfaction then to capture a image I will treasure for years to come. I hope I will be shooting with my Leica for many years like Hans Berkhout's father did. I had better start spending before I get a wife and kids. Hehe!

-- sparkie (sparkie@mailcity.com), November 29, 2001.

sparkie, there's little I can add to this thread that hasn't already been mentioned. My beginnings with Leica reflect the stories everyone else had told. My first Leica was an NOS Leicaflex SL with a new 400mm f/6.8 Telyt, purchased when I was 27 and making about $6/hr. I had an old car, no sound system or other possesions, living in a shabby tent cabin in Alaska. It's all a matter of priorities.

-- Douglas Herr (telyt@earthlink.net), November 29, 2001.

It's definitely a matter of priorities. Even though the majority of what I shoot is b&w, and I do all my own b&w processing and printing, my film and processing budget is usually much greater than my food and (non-photographic) entertainment budgets combined. Shoot first, scavenge for food later. . .

And as thanks to those other afficionados of beatiful women, here's the URL to a listing of many of my photos which include tech data so you can see which were shot with Leicas (over half):

http://www.photocritique.net/g/phtg?MIKE+DIXON

-- Mike Dixon (mike@mikedixonphotography.com), November 29, 2001.

I knew a guy years ago who smoked three packs of unfiltered butts a day, sopped up at least $20 worth of shellac thinner in the local bar every night--and had a $70 a week pot habit on top of all of that. And he whined to me once that he couldn't afford a camera.

It's all a question of priorities, I suppose.

-- Peter Hughes (ravenart@pacbell.net), November 29, 2001.

Don't smoke cigarettes or weed for the rest of your life and that money can be saved up for a Leica R or M camera. Leica isn't expensive unless collectors screw up the prices again again...

Alfie

-- Alfie Wang (leica_phile@hotmail.com), November 30, 2001.

Because Leica is expensive, it actually helps to save money by making you to

(1) think before buying;

(2) think again before buying;

(3) think yet again and decide not to buy;

(4) really hold onto what you've bought and use it instead of changing camera body or buying a new lens every 6 months.

-- Hoyin Lee (leehoyin@hutchcity.com), December 02, 2001.

What a lovely question. Can't resist the opportunity to blather.

Leicas are expensive, but if you consider that an M Leica is good for 400,000+ exposures, then it's cheaper than your average high end Nikon/Canon/Pentax/Minolta/Contax which are good for 150,000 exposures (data from Pop photo, I can't remember the dates...) on a cost per exposure basis.

They hold their value well, depreciating much more slowly than their Japanese bretheren.

Personally, all of my Leica gear is used, with the exception of a 21mm Elmarit. I also have 3 Canon lenses and a 15mm Cosina (Voigtlander).

My major non recoverable expense is overhauls. All of my Leica bodies have needed overhaul, costing anywhere between $225 to $450. It's been worth it, as they are mechanically like new.

It's my only "luxury", except for single malt scotch. My 1987 VW Golf has 236,000 miles on it (enough for a straight line trip to the moon), I am indifferent to fancy clothes, expensive vacations, etc.

There is another expense with Leica. The camera requires more of an investment of time to become proficient with it than most modern cmaeras. For most of the contributors to this board, however, it's time very sell spent.

-- Tom Bryant (boffin@gis.net), December 02, 2001.