Taken from www.cafc.co.uk (charlton website)
Newcastle have turned down the opportunity to take the whole Jimmy Seed Stand. Accordingly, there will now be approximately 700 seats for Charlton fans in this area, as well as around 300 in other parts of the ground. Due to uncertainty about the exact availability of additional north stand places, seats in that area will be sold last.
Question to the club: Why's that then?

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001

Answers

APproximately 700 Geordies going to Charlton's on line ticket office?

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001

Cut and pasted from the Londonmags...

I'd been quite looking forward to the Charlton game, as tickets usually get to go on General sale for this game - so there was me quietly confident that I'd get a couple of tickets. So I rang the ticket office last Monday and was told the game was a sell out and there was no general sale, as the ST holders had taken the full allocation. So imagine my surprise when I read this today Charlton have started selling around 1,000 extra tickets for Saturday's clash with Newcastle United at The Valley. Newcastle have not taken up their full allocation of tickets, which means there will be 700 extra tickets available in the Jimmy Seed stand, while another 300 tickets are available for other areas of the ground, priced £25 adults, £20 seniors and £15 juniors. I'm seething inside I tell ye, in fact I'm hopping mad!! If for any reason anyone knows of a couple of spares that are going, then please shout!! Graeme Graeme Harrison Director Subway10

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001

I've raised this issue directly with the Club before Scratchy. They argue that with only a small allocation of away tickets being provided on a sale-or-return basis, they have to estimate demand fairly accurately - or risk being stuck with unsold tickets that they have to pay for.

Russell Cushing reckons that using the demonstrated demand from previous seasons, they are able to estimate fairly accurately how many tickets they can sell for any particular away match.

It's impossible to argue with Cushing's logic, but my instinct is that the Club will err very much on the safe side, and that quite a lot more tickets could be requested and sold if availability was communicated more effectively. I know for a fact that many fans just assume they won't be able to get one, and don't even bother trying any more.

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001

It would be interesting to see what, if any, effect taking up and selling a full away game allocation might have on the sale of beamback tickets.

I suppose it depends on what proportion of beamback places are already allocated to Club 1892 etc members, who might be inclined to settle for the beamback under any circumstances.

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001

Am I wrong to think that I remember an AGM announcing a full take up of away allocations? And surely they must know that by the logic of 'let's use last years figures' are always going to end up smaller than or the same as the year before. Although you can understand the financial outlay argument for buying out the max possible, surely the clubs can advertise the maximum away allocation, then arrange to purchase the tickets the week before for distribution, with still some 4-5 days for the home club to sort themselves too? The away fans are more likely to plan the trip in advance, so just rearrange the dates of tickets available.

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001

... as I said Bobby, I'm totally convinced the club are acting over- cautiously and that this is a question of communication rather than getting enough fan interest to sell out the maximum up-take for most games.

Perhaps Macbeth could take this matter up via the FLC.

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001

Far be it for me to say that Cushings not got it quite right but a Sunday game in February will have different ticket demands than a Saturday game in December. Or that a moderately successful team (or one in 4th place) will produce greater demand for tickets than a team producing the sh!te that was on offer in February 2001.

I know there's no right formula (but would guess that multiplying by 3.14 would be in there somewhere) to get the right number of tickets but why does it always seem like nufc always err on the side of caution.

Would 700 extra voices really spur the lads on to victory in london anyway?

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001

Dave, it was obvious this time last week what was going to happen. The NUFC box office said the Charlton toon allocation was sold out to ST holders. In fact, I had asked for an extra on my application for Scratchy, and didn't get it with the 2 I did receive on Saturday the 17th, so I knew then that they had all gone. But as late as last Thursday Charlton still had unsold tickets for home fans. Doesn't take a genius to work out that demand had exceeded supply from Toon fans, and supply had exceeded demand from Charlton fans. So why not quickly make more available to Toon fans while there was still plenty of time. I realise that the logistics can be a bit on the tricky side, but it's not rocket science, and anyhow, aren't they supposed to bend over backwards to satisfy their customers? But I guess that just shows up my naivity. We could have sold 1,500, I'm sure of it. Away Mags go to watch the Toon, they're not particularly interested in who the Opposition is. Especially in London.

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001

It is something the FLC are trying to get the club to clarify. The whole ticket situation is a mess and htis is an area that hits lots of people. The guy who writes in the match programme about away games, Bryan Williams, is trying to organise a day to be spent with the woman who is responsible for the whole ticketing set up.

Amazingly (not) the club are playing hard to get.

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001

They've bent over backwards so far in the interests of the paying public, their heads have disappeared where light can't penetrate.

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001

It's not as if this is the first time this has happened. I can understand Cushing's argument, and indeed do have some sympathy for it. However, I would question whether the Toon simply accepts the answer from the home team that additional seats must be paid for up front, no sale no return basis. Surely they could request an increase in the initial allocation.

Let's assume we were allocated 700 seats. Ignoring the fact that we could probably sell twice as many as that, why not ask for 1000? Would CAFC turn down 300 x £25? I doubt it, as they are also pretty sure they wouldn't sell out the ground anyway.

It would be interesting to know how many they allocated to Wham, @rse, Spurs, Chewsea and Fulham. I'd be surprised if it wasn't more than 700, tho there is of course the argument that more CAFC fans would want to see a local derby than a vist of NUFC (with it's guaranteed 3 points for the home side). I also wonder how many the likes of ManUre, 'pool and Leeds are allocated.

If the argument from NUFC is that they can't risk the additional outlay, then taking my 700/1000 numbers above, just what would the outlay at risk be to the club. 700 tickets are pretty well guaranteed, so it's only 300 more @ £25. About the price of a night out in Marbella. Even 1500 would only be an additional outlay of £20K, so not much risk there.

Unless the club are made aware of this underlying dissatisfaction, they'll just stick their heeds in the sand. Something for the FLC to raise MacB??

BTW - I'm reliably (?) informed by Softie, they do the beam-back anymore. And as for basing numbers on last season, wasn't it also a Sky game, which might deter a few hundred from going?

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001

So what if the odd game they lose 20K , Most of the players make more than that per week.
The club spends a damn site more sending players to spain et al.
They give huge dividends from a failing plc.


-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001

Terry, we managed to get some after all - looks like we were lucky. We're meeting in The Chandos at the bottom of Charing Cross Road pre- match if you're interested.

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001

Thanks Dave. In any event, I'm expecting an answer today in respect of 2 more tickets in the away end that I was trying to get for you and Scratchy. If they turn up I'm sure I can sell them om, probably on this BBS. Seems like there's still an unsatisfied demand. I'll be there, probably with Gav (I've got his ticket) unless he's got other plans. Where's the pub? Any idea what the best way is to get there from Richmond, West London? North London Link, tube, or train via Waterlo? Dan might know, I suppose.

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001

The pub's on the north east corner of Trafalgar Square so a tube to Charing cross or Leicester Square will put you within staggering distance.

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001

Fellas - I might be looking for a spare (or 2) if the one I've asked for via my cuz doesn't come thru. Let me know if any spares come available.

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001

Dave, didn't read your posting properly. Thought the pub was in Charlton. Having read it again, I guess I should know how to get to Charing X Road. Not sure about the subsequent staggering distance though.

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001

God that pub serves minging beer! :))

Still, i'll be there nice and early again.....anyone else up for a DECENT sup? ;))

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001

I'll be about on the lookout for a ticket Gav, beer always helps :-)

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001

Screacher,

Cushing explained the current methodology at the recent AGM, and curiously in the example he quoted £20k was the figure he quoted as being "at risk" that the Club couldn't tolerate. Tellingly, he also said something to the effect that the Club makes nothing out of away ticket sales, and therefore cannot take undue financial risks in handling them for the benefit of fans!!!

I believe there is a PL-wide practice of making an initial 'sale-or- return' ticket allocation, followed by a further quota on a non- refundable basis - I don't know exactly what the relative numbers are. I may have misexplained this in my earlier post.

My instinct is that the current approach used by NUFC will almost certainly be overly simplistic and as risk-free as they can make it. They will simply not take financial risks to facilitate their fans/customers, irrespective of what we think.

I doubt they've really considered the potentially positive effect on the team of ensuring the maximum possible level of away support - which indicates the magnitude of the problem in getting them really take this issue seriously.

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001

Clarky - that was my understanding too, tho I'm surprised I came up with the same figure as Cushy-Butterfield.

Taking a more dispassionate look at things, I can see that allowing all the revenue to flow to the home club doesn't help the away team at all, and if this is an EPL standard, we aren't going to be able to change things much. However, if the incentive was on the away club to sell more tickets as it generates real revenue for the home club, then fair dos. Why should a business do something for no revenue? Ah - customer relations. What a novel idea.

How about this for a compromise? Away club to take an allocation to be sold to ST holders and any more to be sold to Joe Public as now. In the meantime, home club puts up a number of "away tickets" for open sale to away supporters. Nah - I can see the downside immediately. But perhaps, with a bit of effort, say Charlton could sell the 700 tickets they have spare right now based on Question of Sport "home" or "away" round. Would it really be a risk to sell tickets on open sale? Only when either all the "home" or "away" tickets have been sold would you run the greater risk of a mixed area.

I know it's not easy. But you'd have hoped that the club would do everything they can to fix it. Of course we're not alone in this - witness the outburst after ManUre Res played in the NE recently.

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001

Is it possible for clubs to tack on a small 'handling fee' to each away ticket sold? A pound or two that goes directly to the away club? Perhaps if NUFC (or any other away club for that matter) were earning even a small amount from these ticket sales, they'd be more inclined to put in the effort. The other question is whether supporters would be willing to pay a bit extra for a bigger allotment of tickets. Then again, when supporters shut out of the official away allocation buy from Ticketbastids home allocation they're paying fees anyway. Just an idea...

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001

This is so annoying; with a bit of imagination and organisation the issue could be resolved to everyones satisfaction. For example:

1) NUFC liaise with the away club and determine the latest date by which NUFC must request their allocation. They also find out how many tickets are available and in what allocations. ie 1000, 2000, 3000 etc

2) Two to three weeks before NUFC have to request their allocation from the away club they ask season ticket holders and the general public to apply by post for tickets, as happens at present, - enclosing payment and SAE. Season ticket holders to be given priority.

3) The postal applications are then processed and NUFC knows accurately how many tickets they need to request from the away club. As they already have the payment they won't be stung by people who say they will attend but then back out at.

Net result - everyones happy. If for example Charlton will release tickets in blocks of say 1,000, 2,000 and 3,000 and NUFC fans only want 2,000 then NUFC can truthfully say that there wasn't the demand to justify taking up the full allocation. If they receive requests for 3000+ tickets then they can take up the full allocation without any risk of exposure to financial loss. They only grey area would be if they received say 2,500 ticket requests. Do they then take the full 3,000 and risk not selling the remaining 500 via general sale, or do they just say tough shit we are going to have to disappoint 500 people.

Perhaps Macbeth or Clarky could put this idea or a variant to the club. It has to be an improvement on the way things are done now.

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001

Have I missed something ? If the initial allocation is Sale or Return, why don't they take the full allocation initially, and then just return what they don't sell ?

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001

Each club sets aside an amount of seats for visiting fans. So at Newctasle this is say 5000.

This 5000 is the maximum they will give to visitors for league games. (I think there is a % figure for FA Cup matches).

What we then do is say to the visitors, say Derby, that they can have 3000 seats on a sale or return basis. This allows a buffer around them if need be, and allows a big block to be sold to home fanes if no more thna 3000 are needed. All Premiership clubs have signed up to a customer charter that includes the rule that they do not charge more for visiting fans for comparable seats.

For big fancy grounds like ours there is no big problem as 5000 is more than enough for most people. At smaller grounds there is a bigger problem. So at Charlton lets say they have an absolute max visitor capacity of 2000 (I'm guessing). They then offer the visitor less than the max, as we do, and in their case may be 1000. They always set this aside even if say the visitors are Southampton who may only take 250 seats. The problem comes when visiting clubs have to gamble on the non sale or return amount of 1000.

In the cas eof us going to Charlton then we are all pretty agreed the 1000 extra would be sold without a problem. What about a visit to Southampton though ? Assuming same numbers as Charlton do the club take the extra 1000 seats, with the extra risk of £20,000 ? I'd guess Southampton is less likely to be full than a London game.

As SellElana so sensibly suggests all the club need to do is ask the fans. His suggestion is spot on and really involves no extra work for the club, just doing it earlier.

Another suggestion made was for the club to stick a questionaire in with the season ticket renewal asking people to tick away games they think they would be interested in attending the subsequent season. This wouldn't have to tie people to going but would highlight well in advance the games that look like being popular. They should still do as Elena suggests closer to the time as people make firmer plans, but they cannot say they have no idea.

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001

Of course another factor to be taken into consideration is that The Valley is much bigger this year than it was last due to the opening of a large new stand replacing the old South Stand - it's lovely, I was there in September. Why can't Charlton have given us a bigger initial allocation on sale or return?

However, the main problem, and one for which I see no solution, is the continued insistence on segregation of away fans. Without that requirement, we wouldn't have a problem. How many of you have ever sat in home areas? Loads I bet. How many of you have ever been in a punch up as a consequence? If the authorities stopped treating football fans like scum (especially away fans) and allowed us to demonstrate that we are sensible, warm hearted and loveing human beings, this issue would go away!

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001

Ciara, I was just about to suggest exactly that. Much as it pains me to suggest that the club gorge itself on our hard earned cash even further, I wouldn't be averse to paying say a pound on every away ticket I buy (when I get back to the UK of course!) on condition that the club guarantee to take the maximum allocation. For lots of games they'd be laughing and would make a few grand just by doing what they normally do. For games like the Charlton match, if they end up being stuck with tickets they can use the cash they've made on the other games to offset their losses. All sorts of benefits to all parties - the club would, I imagine, end up in profit over the course of the season. More people would be able to go to away games. Support to the team will be better. The atmosphere at SJP might even improve as more people discover the joys of away trips and find their voices again. Plus, of course, as we all know away games are habit forming. The more people have the opportunity to go, the more frequently they will return and the less likely it is that the club will be stuck with tickets anyway.

Once again though, it's nothing short of disgusting that the club have turned downt he tickets, and my money is on the beam-back explanation. I lived in London for 4 years and came across Geordies all the time. The London Supporters club had a thousand members - ie a thousand people who were interested enough in the Mags to fill in an application form and pay a subscription. And these people DON't want to go to the game? Seems unlikely - most of them don't go because they can't get tickets.

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001

Your dead right Al. We don't go because we can not get tickets.

Sellelenas posting makes the perfect sense..Shame ideas like that can't come from the club.

I have almost given up trying to get tickets to these games in the South.

If anyone has a spare for Saturday I could possibly be persuaded to join in the away support..preferably amongst my own but I am quite used to being in the "wrong" areas usually next to one of the other several hundred supporters that the club don't think will want to buy a ticket.

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001

I see no problem about the club putting a levy on away tickets. At present, they have to administer their sale for no revenue whatsoever. As Ciara rightly points out, folks are ahppy (well, they accept it) to pay a "booking fee" for tickets bought thru an agency. Selling tickets for an away game is pretty much the same as an agency, but has the added benefit of ensuring (well almost) total segregation of the fans.

Actually, I was surprised to see a bunch of Toon fans leap up and doon in the "home end" when Speed scored against Fulham. Probaly to do with the terracing that Fulham tolerate away supporters in the home end. I have to say - they were better behaved than some of the segregated Toon fans in the away terracing.

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001

Perhaps a combo of the booking fee and SellElena's idea, which is great btw. Can't see where the club would lose at all in that case. They'd make some extra money, supporters would be happier(and happy supporters buy more merchandise), away support would be even better which would help encourage the team to more away wins.

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001