John, in the thread "Democracy and Christianity" you said to Phil,

You wrote: "I certainly agree that 'it is better for a Muslims to try to talk to God than to attempt no contact with him at all' but the point is that if a moslem has a wrong concept of God, his prayers are not really directed to the true God." I am certain that the Catholic bishops would disagree with you. Although they do not know God as a Trinity, they know the same God that you and I and Jews know. They simply call him by a different name (Allah, Yahweh). Therefore their prayers ARE directed to the true God and are heard by him.

You continued: "For example, islamic terrorists pray all the night before committing their attacks, and they pray for the success of their attacks. Do you think that such a prayer is directed to God or to satan?" I am 100% certain that the bishops would say that these misguided prayers are directed to God. Even we Christians sometimes offer foolish prayers. God always answers prayers. He answers, "NO," to violent Muslim terrorists. It is not necessary for us to think that the prayers are offered to satan.

First, I agree with you that a Muslim is praying to God, only by a different name. I also agree that a soldier praying for success will also be heard *by God*. What however of a violent group who consciously prays for something truly evil? Would that prayer be directed to God still?

As Shakespeare said, "a rose by any other name, shall smell as sweet". If one calls God "God" or "Allah" it makes no difference, one is seeking the light. OTOH if someone is seeking out the darkness (EVIL), why would it matter if one used the word "God" in your prayer rather than "Satan"? Does the WORD "God" have a Talisman-like power to direct prayers TO God, or does the intent of the prayer dictate where it should go?

I'm not so sure that someone saying "God, please help me rob, rape, and murder" when they know these are morally wrong is really praying to God. It would seem to me that they ARE in fact praying to Satan, calling him by the name "God".

If you've got any magisterial text on the matter (and I've come to expect it from you :-) ) I'd like to read it. I'd be a welcome break from the "Messianic Jews" and the "sex with nine-year old" supporters.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), November 23, 2001

Answers

Shamelessly bumping this into recent answers,

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), November 23, 2001.

Jmj

Hi, Frank.
You wrote: "Does the WORD 'God' have a Talisman-like power to direct prayers TO God, or does the intent of the prayer dictate where it should go? I'm not so sure that someone saying 'God, please help me rob, rape, and murder' when they know these are morally wrong is really praying to God. It would seem to me that they ARE in fact praying to Satan, calling him by the name 'God.'"

I agree with you. The intent is paramount. If there is hatred in the heart of the one praying and he knows that what he asks for is "morally wrong," it follows that there is no real prayer taking place at all. [Every monotheist (presumably) knows that God is pure goodness, and could never do "moral wrong" in answer to a prayer.] At best, it would bean empty exercise, and at worst, it would be a prayer to satan, as you suggest.

The problem, then, is to know what is the intent of a Muslim nut case -- a "praying" terrorist. If he is "invincibly ignorant," having been taught since childhood that Jews and Christians are tools of satan, then he probably really is misguidedly praying to God himself (not to satan).

[I posted a new reply to Phil/Marco, showing him evidence that the Church really believes that Muslims pray (and to the same God to whom we pray).]

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), November 23, 2001.

John,

The problem, then, is to know what is the intent of a Muslim nut case -- a "praying" terrorist. If he is "invincibly ignorant," having been taught since childhood that Jews and Christians are tools of satan, then he probably really is misguidedly praying to God himself (not to satan).

That's the trouble, isn't it? Understanding these people's motivations. I can understand the "classical" idea of a terrorist, that of a young, deluded kid, but what about that pilot in the WTC? The guy was in his thirties and had a family, sent them home and crashed into a building full of people in an airplane full of people! I personally can't believe that this person didn't know their actions were wrong. You'd *really* have to be a lump of earth to not have your kids give you *some* insight on life, and to have *some* aspirations for them, how could this guy NOT know what he was doing was wrong? That's WAY beyond a lack of insight.

Thankfully though, judging his soul is not something I have to do.

Giving armchair analysis OTOH, that's fair game!

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), November 25, 2001.

" ... what about that pilot in the WTC? The guy was in his thirties and had a family, sent them home and crashed into a building full of people in an airplane full of people! I personally can't believe that this person didn't know their actions were wrong. You'd *really* have to be a lump of earth to not have your kids give you *some* insight on life, and to have *some* aspirations for them, how could this guy NOT know what he was doing was wrong?"

Frank,
This kind of automaton behavior may be a case of satanic possession.
Or it may be attributable to the mind-numbing that seems likely to occur from a certain way of learning the Koran. [Have you seem those head-bobbing little boys in the Pakistani schools? Anyone who could fool/frighten normal kids into that kind of behavior could fool them into believing that a suicide attack is a good thing.]
Or it may have something to do with a "cult of personality" -- a mental illness or brainwashing that is tied to a Hitler/Manson/bin-Laden kind of monster. Certain people seem to have a mesmerizing quality about them that lets them almost take control of others' behavior. [After all, Slick Willy got re-elected (_8^D)]

JFG

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), November 26, 2001.

I had occasion to ask an Afghani taxi-driver once, in San Diego-- what the beads hanging from his rear-view mirror were. A ''rosary''; of the Muslim variety is what it was. I then asked him about the prayer that was said on each bead. He said to me, it's the name of the Prophet. Just repeated, over and over; or ''Allah is great'', on each bead. Not much adoration of the Latin sort. Nor petitioning or thanksgiving. Much less asking pardon for sin. It's a bit astonishing.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), November 26, 2001.