Got the new Mother Earth News magazine today. I have subscribed to the magazine for yrs, but a few yrs ago it changed hands and now it has again. Seems since the shuttleworths sold it the magazine has gone downhill, I still hold out hope they will get better, thought this new comapny would.

The new issue has a article on pg 9 about the shipping poultry issue and Murry McMurray. They mention the in support of info but then also mention the other side which begins with "Write to Stop Shipping" and gives the PETA alert website addy, its peta-online.com The article doesn't come right out and say theya re opposed, its the owrding they used. Now its all open to interpretation, however, the tone sounds like they support them despite their claim to give both sides and the reader make up their minds.

I intrepted this from this paragraph: "Northwest airlines made the compassionate decision to stop accepting baby chickens shipped via the Postal Service. Unfortunately, hatcheries have put an immense amount of pressure on the airline and their industry to keep transporting these animals despite exorbitantly high mortality rates and inevitable suffering. please write to Postal Service officials to urge them to set a policy against the shipment of live animals."

The article begins with Mothers contact by Murray, however, it goes on to say that only 3 airlines will still ship and the tone suggests that these are 3 too many.

I get the feeling from this that the new managemnt of MEN is pro PETA, sure hope I am wrong.

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), November 17, 2001

Answers

Another one bites the dust !

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), November 17, 2001.

I think you may be reading something into it that is not there. I did not get the impression that they support PEAT in any way shape or form. I am against shipping live chicks, I am against PETA. I didn't even read into the article they were against shipping of live birds. They laid out the facts and let everyone decide for themselves.

-- Laura (LauramLeek@yahoo.com), November 17, 2001.

Let me get this straight. You're concerned about MEN because they're not in FAVOR of making animals suffer? I guess I don't get it. Please explain.

JOJ

-- joj (jump@off.c), November 17, 2001.

PETA BITES. I DIDN'T CLAW MY WAY TO THE TOP OF THE FOOD CHAIN TO EAT VEGTABLES

-- JACK (XYZ123PUP@AOL.COM), November 17, 2001.

I've a relative who lives overseas [I'm in the uS]. Every couple of years we go through the rigamarole of getting her and her dog over here.

Year by year more airlines opt out of allowing live animals. Too many die in the nasty frigid underbelly of the plane. And most airlines don't want to spend the money to make it safe.

This is not only a US problem, but a worldwide one.

-- pc (jasper2@doglover.com), November 18, 2001.

I tried to reply to JOJ's reply, however, the forum was down. I wanted to explain a little better my thinking. I didn't state this in my original post that I am not in favor of animals sufferring or being mal treated, thats not why PETA bothers me. I am against PETA's tatics as an organizations because of thie radical methods and tatics. I do feel however that there needs to be more done for animals and their welfare. For example, there are many stray dogs and other animals that need help, yet PETA focuses upon such issues as their recent "drink beer not milk campaign." I could continue to go on and on here, but won't.

I feel MEN in writing their article presented it in a tone that indicated that they were supporting their efforts and so hence wanted to toss it out there for discussion and consideration. I have bought chicks several times in the past from hatacheries andf have not experienced any problems loosing chicks. But for a "homesteading" magazine to lean towards PETA disturbs me because part of homesteading also involves buying chicks via mail for meat and eggs for some, it also involves raising our own meat supply which invariably is what PETA is against.

I hope i have enough caffine in me this morning at 4:30 to make sense, if not I'll try again later.

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), November 19, 2001.

I know I'm in the minority here, but I'm a vegetarian... been one since I was 4 years old of my own choice. No one else in my family is a vegetarian, heck I don't even know any other vegetarians on a first name basis.

I support PETA in many of their endeavors. I don't understand how a caring, compassionate person could not support at least some of their ideals.

It's not just about the food chain - I know man has eaten meat since... well, forever. That is not going to change. But what should change is the treatment of those animals. If an animal is going to be slaughtered, why should it's treatment be any different than that of a pet? I'm talking access to clean water, appropriate food and not being housed like a sardine in a can. Or standing or sitting in it's own waste.

I know this particular discussion is about the shipping of poultry, and yes, I'm against that. Would you ship your dog in a box cross country, like you'd ship a book to a friend? No, of course not, becuase most people are compassionate, not to mention that doing that would be illegal. If it's illegal for man's best friend to be treated like nothing more than meaningless cargo, why should the standards be any different for any other living creature that can feel pain and be frightened?

I have several bumper stickers from PETA adorning the windows of my Jeep - my favorite is "Real Men are Kind to Animals".

What more can I say?

-- Shannan (JanuaryGem2@aol.com), November 19, 2001.

I asked this to some PETA members while fishing is VA,, "if God didnt want me to eat animals,, why did he make them out of meat" ? .. HE couldnt say anything,, lowered his head,, and walked away,,, caught some great fish too

-- stan (sopal@net-port.com), November 19, 2001.

I have gotten many chicks thru the mail from Murry. All of them were happy and healthy when they got here. I also have hatched thousands and thousands of chicks in my home. Folks who raise chicks spend allot of money on them, it's not cheap.

When I sell the chicks, I put them in cages and drive to the stockyards, and folks buy them, put them in boxes, and drive home. The chicks are not scared. They are peeping around eating and drinking while I am there. No one ever told me the chicks died because they were scared to death on the way home.

Shipping chicks is the only way we can get these pure breed chickens anymore. There is no breeders around me, that's for sure. And even if there were, I would have to put the chicks in a box, and drive home.

-- Cindy in KY (solidrockranch@msn.com), November 19, 2001.

That's it guys we should all support PETA and there terrorist way , aren't they the nice ones who WANTED mad cow disease to hit the us .I even seem to remember them telling there members how to get it into the US easy and infect our animals. Aren't they the caring ones who turn animals loose to take care of themselves when all they know is how to eat and drink from bowls .

Don't think animal cruilty will hold on this forum .Many of us are raising are own food so we know how they are treated and what they are fed .When we slaughter an animal it is done in the fasted , most painless way we can .I do not want anything to suffer.

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), November 19, 2001.

Yeah Patty, did you see that on TV, the PETA folks want animals in their natural habitat, but their offices in the high rise were full of pet cats and dogs. I'm sure the cats and dogs would much rather be outside if given the choice.

-- Cindy in KY (solidrockranch@msn.com), November 19, 2001.

And don't forget they don't want any ANIMALS bred .That would hurt alot of us and screw up the whole planet as species die off.

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), November 19, 2001.

I think this is a real problem. Can you even guess what the price of poultry is going to be if chicks are not allowed to be shipped by air? Do you want to pay $15 - $20 dollars per chicken in the store. Think about it; who is going to cover the extra cost of shipping? In addition to that - how much longer is it going to take to ship out the chicks if it is all going to be done by truck? And don't you think more chicks will die because it takes longer?

I order chicks and I have had no problems with any of my shippments. Yes I can imagine there are some problems but that is in the way they are handled not in the way they are shipped. Chicks need to be placed close together to keep them warm. If they don't have heat they will die. It would be less humane to give them more room. They need to be kept warm - that is way we give them heat lamps when they get here.

Also chicks can survive for 48 hours without eating because they get the strength from the yoke. This is the way God has designed them. They are not suffering from lack of food.

Also are you aware of how many breeds of domentic poultry are on the endangered list currently? There are 12 breeds of chickens, 13 breeds of ducks, 10 breeds of geese and 11 breeds of turkey. One source of keeping these breeds in alive are the hatcherys. Some hatcherys are still keeping those breeds to sell to small raisers. (Commercial growers only select one or two breeds - factory style) Homesteaders get them through the mail - (if you buy them from your local feed store where do you think they got them?) the same way we have for years. (Information on endanger livestock can be found at The American Lisvestock Breeds Conservancy" www.albc-usa.org)

A big problem I see is that we treat animals more like humans and humans more like animals. Yes, you may not want animals to be mistreated and neither do I - but they are still animals. I want them to be healthy and treated well with proper food and diet, because I want a healthy meat and breeding source.

By the way - what does MEN have to do with any of this???

-- Tom S. (trdsshepard@yahoo.com), November 19, 2001.

Hey Stan, I'm not supporter of peta, and this is not meant to be a personal attack on you, but as to your comment that "if God didnt want me to eat animals, why did he make them out of meat", well...humans are made of meat also. Supposed to be rather mild and sweet tasting. Your logic would imply humans and you in particular should be allowed to eat anything made of meat. Think most religions and human governments frown on humans eating humans. Care to clarify your position?

-- HermitJohn (Hermit@hilltop_homestead.zzn.com), November 19, 2001.

I can see that alternative methods to ship chicks would be difficult and more costly. I understand that to get specific breeds you need to purchase from a hatchery. I just don't believe that the airlines really have the time/manpower/desire to make sure that things that were put on the plane alive arrive alive (and healthy). Now, I've never ordered from a hatchery, but judging from the way things from UPS and the USPS arrive at my house (ripped, torn, damaged boxes, etc.), I can't imagine that they treat a box with live animals in it with much caution. Again, I've never ordered, don't have personal experience, but I'm just using my own reasoning skills.

Nor can I explain PETAs sometimes ridicules antics and actions. I've found very few organizations that I can wholeheartedly agree with, on every issue they promote. PETA does have some excellent points, but some of their points are filled with double standards (as many organizations are).

I don't have an answer to this problem of shipping poultry - wish I did. I just get frustrated when the current situation isn't wholely humane - and neither are any of the alternatives (by alternatives, I mean shipping by truck or letting the individual breeds die off, etc.).

-- Shannan (JanuaryGem2@aol.com), November 19, 2001.

There are many kind-hearted people who are members of PETA, who diligently send in their dues believing they are doing good things for an organization that cares deeply about animals. The sad fact is, however, that PETA is no such thing, their public relations talents notwithstanding. PETA is a terrorist organization, and work in conjunction with even bolder terrorist organizations, such as the Animal Liberation Front. They are continually involved in efforts that HURT ANIMALS IN THE LONG RUN, all the while emblazoning their platitudes about how they hate animal abuse (as if the rest of us support it!). This is anther example of PETA speaking loudly, and causing great negative ramifications,about which they know absolutely nothing.

We have challenged PETA's contentions that "birds have been shipped for years with disastrous effects", asked them where they get their numbers, their numerous testimonies to back up their contentions. We have yet to recieve a response. But this is nothing new, for I have personally myriad times challenged PETA activists as to the logic of their various activities, and NOT ONE TIME has any of them been articulate enough to respond, or even knowledgeable enough on the issue to even HAVE an opinion!

Certainly it is everyone's right to belong to whatever organization they feel called to join, but I think it critical to be aware of just exactly what one is supporting, not just what is apparent on the surface.

{In one interview, a PETA spokesperson was quoted as saying that mankind "is the biggest blight on the face of the earth" and continued, "I do not believe that a human being has a right to life. I would rather have medical experiments done on our children than on animals."}

I have MANY more examples, and not just in the vein of whether animals are superior in importance to humans, but of the damage that PETA does TO animals, but have not time to post them at this moment.

Get to know the REAL people behind PETA, you may be surprised.

-- Earthmama (earthmama@yahoo.com), November 19, 2001.

I have ordered chicks numerous times through the mail & they have been flown to their destination with no problem at all. They would not make the trip if it was done with ground delivery. Unless the person ordering lived really close to the hatchery. They will live 2 days off the yolk they absorb prior to hatching. My chicks have always arrived healthy & peeping. I do not like to see animals suffering either, but I wish humans would be as concerned of fellow human suffering as they are of animals. We slaughter millions of babies each year through abortion & no one seems to think that's bad. Slaughter a few animals & you're the worst person around.

-- Wendy (weiskids@yahoo.com), November 19, 2001.

I have heard that the airlines are now shipping poultry. Even though PETA has requested them not to. Could it be that Sept. 11 had anything to do with it - and that the airlines are trying to make money any way they can at the pressent time???

If you have never seen how the chicks are shipped please don't base your opinion on the condition that you get Christmas packages. (If I did that I would not order chicks either.) Chicks are shipped right after they are hatched. The hatchery times it so chicks hatch and are mailed out as soon as possible. (Usually for a Monday delivery) In my case, the post office is informed ahead of time of chicks comming and I get a phone call from the post office as soon as they are in. (Around 6 in the morning.) This has always worked well and I have never lost any in shippment.

-- Tom S. (trdsshepard@yahoo.com), November 19, 2001.

Wendy,

It is as I said before.

We are treating animals as humans, and humans as animals.

-- Tom S. (trdsshepard@yahoo.com), November 19, 2001.

You know, if we were ordering chicks to be part of a "Chicken Nature Preserve", I'm sure PETA wouldn't object at all to them flying the friendly skies. The fact that we eat the chickens and eggs is what they are mad about and want to stop.

It really is suprising that Mother Earth News put that in the magizine.

-- Cindy in KY (solidrockranch@msn.com), November 19, 2001.

Have been reading this discussion with interest. I guess MEN can publish whatever they want, just as you can subscribe wherever you want. The best way to get the politics of their magazine changed is to drop your subscription, explaining the reason why. You can whine and complain all you want, but money talks.

Most of us seem to know instinctively that PETA is extremist and possibly terroristic in its actions. Their history speaks for itself. They are not worthy of listening to in any matter. I am not saying that mistreatment of animals is right, but I know this group is wrong in much of what they do, therefore I will not support them.

Earthmama, Have to agree with you on this one. The folks who support PETA may be kind hearted, but emotionalism on an issue will not help and infact it blurs your vision. Of course they don't have the facts. Many of the groups out there don't have any, they just make them up as they go. If they weren't fabricated they would be able to tell you where they came from.

Wendy, I must agree with your last statement about killing babies and saving animals. It is so ridiculous how people can kill their own and champion saving another species. It is illogical, irrational, and it is wrong to murder humans just because it is inconvenient for them to be born. There are alternatives to abortion, too bad no one looks into them seriously. Abortion like any other business is about money. No matter how noble they make their cause sound, it is about dollars and cents.

I always thought that humans were supposed to be above all the species. But when you kill your own it makes one wonder. This whole issue was summed up one day when I saw two bumper stickers on the same bumper. Save the Whales, and I'm Pro-choice. It says it all.

Talk to you later.

-- Bob in WI (bjwick@hotmail.com), November 19, 2001.

well,, if someone WANTS to try to eat me,,, they can TRY,, survuval of the fitest. My guess, would be a knuckles sandwhich and they would be full. ANd people DO send their pets in boxes, and cages ALL the time,, cant fly without doing that. Just because chicks cant break out of cardboard doesnt mean it isnt safe. Also,, humans taste better with B B Q sauce

-- stan (sopal@net-port.com), November 19, 2001.

Should have known it was you Stan.!

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), November 19, 2001.

I eat meat and i love it...

I use guns to kill animals and its fun....

I beleive in womens right to choice....

I beleive PETA are a bunch of whiny irrationally over emotional IDIOTS

I wish i could spray paint every car that a PETA member owns see how they like it.....

I wish every PETA member was shipped to afghanistan on the front lines with the taliban so we could blow them up....

I love my animals but i realize there animals and i didnt give birth to them so i dont act like there human....

i guess i dislike PETA....

-- David (drollb@aol.com), November 19, 2001.

I can't take the time right now to respond to each post I'd like to, but I'm taking a minute to respond to this:

>>>I wish every PETA member was shipped to afghanistan on the front lines with the taliban so we could blow them up....

David - come on, be serious. This is just a cruel thing to say. Because I'm a PETA member I deserve to die? That's like me saying that if you're a NRA member or gay or have blue hair that you should die, becuase I don't like your stance on a particular issue.

If this is the belief system that you subscribe to, I feel bad for you...your world must be very small. I'd like to think that you're just having a bad day and didn't really think before you made such a nasty, blanket statement.

-- Shannan (JanuaryGem2@aol.com), November 19, 2001.

i have had very good luck with recieving chicks and am very concerned about what the shipping changes will have for the rare breeds as well as the homesteading poultry industry if thats what it could be called . lots of vegetarians are reasonable or or that way due to concerns about how animals were raised (not confinement rearing) several years ago i went to a pot luck dinner most of the people there were concientios vegetarians i took a large pork roast ,the wife was having a fit said some of them would be offended ..... well at the end when the dishes were being washed one of them was wiping the last traces of grease from the pot with a piece of pita bread the coment was it tasted so much better especialy since they usualy didnt eat meat.its just the fanatics that cause trouble

-- george darby (windwillow@fuse.net), November 19, 2001.

There's been a lot of talk about all Greenspun forums going down for good. That's what I thought had happened! Glad that is not the case.

Bernice, thanks for the clarification. You done good, especially for that early in the morning. I was sawing logs, still, at that hour.

You are obviously more familiar with PETA rhetoric than I am.

I personally do prefer drinking beer to drinking milk, but I prefer fruit juice to either. A friend of mine once hassled me beyond belief, as he was a vegan, and I was a mere veggie. I ate dairy products and eggs. So he accused me of "only exploiting animals--not eating them!"

I don't eat milk, now, because my system lost the ability to create lactase, after a long stint in Latin America, with no milk intake. I suffered from the hershey squirts for four or five years, getting all sorts of medical tests, until I finally figured out that it was related to my inability to digest milk. As soon as I got off the milk habit, my runs went bye-bye.

I am pretty much a tree hugger, and do focus on environmental and animal rights issues, but not to the extent that you cite in your post.

JOJ

-- joj (jump@off.c), November 19, 2001.

There's been a lot of talk about all Greenspun forums going down for good. That's what I thought had happened! Glad that is not the case.

Bernice, thanks for the clarification. You done good, especially for that early in the morning. I was sawing logs, still, at that hour.

You are obviously more familiar with PETA rhetoric than I am.

I personally do prefer drinking beer to drinking milk, but I prefer fruit juice to either. A friend of mine once hassled me beyond belief, as he was a vegan, and I was a mere veggie. I ate dairy products and eggs. So he accused me of "only exploiting animals--not eating them!"

I don't eat milk, now, because my system lost the ability to create lactase, after a long stint in Latin America, with no milk intake. I suffered from the hershey squirts for four or five years, getting all sorts of medical tests, until I finally figured out that it was related to my inability to digest milk. As soon as I got off the milk habit, my runs went bye-bye.

I am pretty much a tree hugger, and do focus on environmental and animal rights issues, but not to the extent that you cite in your post.

So Stan, do you eat slugs, cock roaches, or dung beetles? God made them totally digestible by humans. Your analogy is faulty, imho.

Patty, did Peta REALLY say all that about mad cow disease? Do you have some references? That's grim, if true.

JOJ

PS, Stan, I hope you won't give my name to the draft board :)

-- joj (jump@off.c), November 19, 2001.

Stan, I'm wondering what is your favorite brand of BBQ sauce.???

-- Jim-mi (hartalteng@voyager.net), November 19, 2001.

I grew up in a city. People's exposure to the lives of animals in cities is based on: pet dogs, pet cats, pet hamsters, pet gerbils, pet cockatiels, pet ferrets, pet snakes, pet guinea pigs, pet lizards, pet turtles, pet budgies, etc. It is also based on pigeons cooing outside their windows, the odd raccoon or possum, birds that may show up at their feeders, an occasional rarity like a seal, if they live on a seacoast, etc.

They were raised with animals as *companions*. Imagine how such a person feels when exposed to the horror of people who abuse their animals! It would be completely unacceptable to them. Any sensitive person would want to take some kind of action to rectify the situation!

I don't like militant responses to perceived problems...this is based on old '60s experience, current events, etc. However, a person with empathy would understand that these really are a bunch of well- meaning folks who do not want to see cruelty done to animals (I would venture to say that most folks on this forum would certainly not want to see that either.)

The difference is a matter of exposure. We are all stewards of the planet, whether we accept that position or not. To some of us, the cost of doing business necessitates losing the statistically-planned chick or duckling or two. To some others of us, the loss of one life is absolutely unacceptable.

I would suggest that in the instance of PETA (and in the instance of all issues where one finds oneself seriously disagreeing on an issue) that one try to understand one's "opponent" and figure out some mutual area where one can work out the differences....For example, I, too, would love it if I didn't have to fly my chicks in via mail order. I don't like the expense, the risks, the hassle of having the Post Office have to call me, having the chicks indoors, etc. Seems to me that that's in *agreement* with those who have other reasons for not wanting to ship live birds. Maybe by pressuring and/or supporting LOCAL folks to raise chicks for business, one could affect some positive change for one's community (and the larger community/world.)

I guess I'm just trying to say that it's always better to find out what you have in common with your enemies (!) in order to solve your surprizingly mutual problems creatively. Sometimes it doesn't work, but man, in this day and age with all the serious conflict going on in the world, finding some kind of solution sure would be worthwhile. Give peace a chance....

Hope I made some sense....tired from working and commuting today....

-- sheepish (WA) (the_original_sheepish@hotmail.com), November 19, 2001.

Thanks Jump off joe. Wow, what a story, bet that was a horrid feeling with the squirts, amazing how it stopped after eating the meat. I can't eat pork for the same reasons.

Sheepish, good post, good points, and so true, you articulated what i wasn't able to do so early in the AM. i also forgot to put a ? at the end of the new thread I started.

I just want to mention that i am surprised by all the PETA supporters who posted. I am just amazed, and i respect your viewpoints too. Yet please accept ours as homesteaders and farmers who make the from and milk. seems there isn't much, don't mean on this forum but in general. I would have joined PETA yrs ago when they were a more compasionate and sensable organization but never had the money to do so. Then when i did they initiated their campaigns that were not always in the best interest of animals. such as their campaign a few yrs back to free the dairy cows from the farms and they or either their back up organization the liberation organization decided to let over 500 cows loose in Michigan or Wisconsin and those cows either were hit by cars or ran fences that killed them. now I will admit over the years that I have seen my really cruel and nasty conditions in some cow dairies. such as manure up to the belly and the veal calves issues. i sure wish PETA would do something more about that and try to mmet in the middle as Sheepish mentioned, but its highly unlikely. Those poor calves are penned up in small huts and fed hmmmm forgot what to make them have the squirts.

I still say that PETA is dangerous and they are even suspected of the foot and mouth disease that hit the UK, supposduly they got into a lab and unleased the disease. But then again after the recent 9/11 events it may have been Bin's crew.

Sounds like its time for the development of a newer organization to support the true abuses of animals with a more compasionate approach and yet is not as radical. i think if folks could trust them they woyuld get a lot more rrespect and support form the farmers, etc.

Well... just my humble thoughts. still think that the wording in the article by using the word "compasionate" definatley is a subjective tone in the sentence about the airlines. To me that sent up a red flag. But again, just wanted to pitch it out there for discussion and to see what everyone else thought.

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), November 19, 2001.

My neighbor has a bumper snicker PETA= People Eating Tasty Animals

I don't keep up with the PETA group but I do recall hearing a program on Wisconsin Public Radio a while back interviewing one of their spokespeople. They start by making some good sounding arguments. Close confinement, boring diet, "unnatural lives" then they got completely over the top with some really outrageous claims that made it sound like ANYONE who has livestock are abusing their animals.

Just last week I heard a story on NPR. They were interviewing someone from Murray McMurray. He sez the claim from PETA was that AT LEAST 30% of all birds shipped died in transit and he pointed out that they simply couldn't stay in business for long if the transit mortality rate was that high.

My own experience---Last year in NOVEMBER we ordered 55 Buff Orpington chicks from Privett Hatchery in AZ. They arrived four days later, all alive and in good, vigorous health.

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), November 20, 2001.

Weighing in on this from Alaska - I'll try to keep half my response half tongue-in-cheek.

Alaskan poultry folks are having conniption fits about this. The number of chicks one can hatch here and become anything other than chick-sicles is approximately zero. We are absolutely dependent on Murray McM and the other hatcheries to provd us in the spring, and the scuttlebutt is that we're going to be looking at somewhere between $1 and $4 per chick! next year.

The upshot of it is that many homesteaders and simlar folks are going to be eating a lot more ruffed grouse, sharp-tailed grouse, spruce grouse and willow ptarmigan in the coming years.
Thank you very much, PETA, for making that come about.
I'd better stop here, and let the rest of you mull over what I've left unsaid.

-- Audie (paxtours@alaska.net), November 20, 2001.

It didn't. Hmm...

Italics ON
Italics OFF
Bold ONBold OFF
-- Audie (paxtours@alaska.net), November 20, 2001.

It didn't. Hmm...

Italics ON
Italics OFF
Bold ONBold OFF
What's it look like now?

-- Audie (paxtours@alaska.net), November 20, 2001.

In response to one of the last posts...I do not think that MEN is owed anything. If they want to quote an organization like PETA then they can get the fallout. They take a quote from a respectable pro- shipper, then they quote a group that is radical in many of our minds for the anti-shipping. They should have found a respectable anti- shipper to quote. If anyone is so pro-Peta, then how do you rate on the Abortion issue? Double standards? How do you rate using leather, etc.??? I think you should allow people to decide for themselves. You should not take away MY right to raise chickens just because of some misinformed conception about shipping. Maybe the anti-bird shippers should work on changing peoples minds on eating birds. No demand = no shipping. Until then, leave us CHICKEN EATERS alone and look at your own lives. Again, I too will leave some things unsaid. I think being vegetarian is great, but not if you force your community to go along with you. I think the only source of meat I would really like to eat is homegrown. No antibiotics, no hormones, etc. Peta is just building resentment against the vegetarian/pro- animal movement. Would you rather see some beautiful flocks of birds dwindle to nothing, than have someone raise them in their backyards and eat a few eggs or birds? Backyard birds are strong and can fight off colds, they can live longer, they get room to run. Factory birds are weakened and need meds to live. You decide. (Factory birds are trucked, so this does not affect them at all)

-- notnow (notnow05@yahoo.com), November 20, 2001.

I think people are more afraid of the plane flight than those chicks will ever be!! I want to be able to get some of those rare breeds and the only way is from hatcheries. I have some hens now who are several years old, no I didn't turn them into stew. They will live out their lives. My animals are penned for their safety. I don't want my horses in the road hit by a car or semi!! As for the chickens I wish I could let them free range but the free ranging dogs kill them! I've lost count of all the dogs, cats etc as road kill I've seen. I'd rather eat chicken than horse!! Horses are being shipped to slaughter for meat for other countries!! The cruelity is terrible!! Mine are a part of our family. Not everyone who has animals if cruel. I'm trapped in a job now, I want to be set free!! FREE ME!! :)

-- PJC (zpjc5_@hotmail.com), November 20, 2001.