I think the time might be right for bobby to have a chat with Man U about a straight Scholes Dyer swap. Scholes is obviously unhappy and Dyer is seemingly on a sticky wicket. Whaddyareckon?

-- Anonymous, November 07, 2001

Answers

No chance swifty. As I've just said on another thread, his present market value will be minimal, and any suggestion that Manure would consider swapping a current England international for Dyer, until he has demonstrated his fitness and his form, is entirely fatuous.

I actually think Scholes is world class, and couln't see Manure agreeing to letting him go under any circumstances.

-- Anonymous, November 07, 2001

Scholes USED to be world class. However, since the tail end of last season he has been absolute bollocks. His shooting accuracy has dropped dramatically, his passing is regularly going astray and he doesn't win as many tackles. Whether he will regain this form is unknown at this stage, but he is the sort of player that would get people annoyed.

If we could get him it would be brilliant as he is better than what we have, but I'm not sure if he can get back to the form of a couple of seasons ago when he was easily their best player. Would letting Man U have Dyer solve it though? Dunno whether Taggart would want to buy Dyer - where would he fit in? Veron, Giggs, Beckham, Keane is basically the midfield, I can only see Dyer behind a striker.

If we could pull it off, it would be great, but can't see it happening. Dyer is a canny player to keep anyway, still young and he's quick. Imagine Dyer and Bellamy in the same team, the amount of problems they could cause teams like Villa, Southampton, Ipswich and Sunderland would bring a smile to any Newcastle fan's face.

-- Anonymous, November 07, 2001

Scholes is a waste of time. He can only be played behind a striker. If he plays in midfield he becomes a liability. He tries to get on the end of every cross - and when a defender clears, he is completely out of position. Thats why England get caught on the break when he plays in midfield. When a cross is cleared, we only have a 3 man midfield. It can work at MANUre because they have Keane who can do the job of 2 players - or Sheringham/Yorke would drop back.

Scholes? Stay well clear.

-- Anonymous, November 07, 2001

For once I'm in 100% agreement with Nick. If you think 2 from Lee/Speed/Acuna/Bassedas is a bit lightweight then you'd be in for an awful shock if you were to pair one of them with Scholes. Technically gifted, great behind another striker (or pair of strikers), times his runs beautifully but there's no way he can dominate the middle of the park. Now if we could get Keane as part of the same deal........

-- Anonymous, November 07, 2001

But Scholes certainly has a lot more bite than Dyer and he would be playing in the same position. Like I said before swap Dyer for Scholes and Butt and we'd have the mf sorted!

-- Anonymous, November 07, 2001

No way. We can't play Dyer in the middle. Not with LoLo AND Solano. We'd need superman (or Keane) in the holding role to pull that off. Keep Solano - Sell Dyer - Buy Carrick or Butt.

-- Anonymous, November 07, 2001

I thnk Dyer can play in the middle, he's got a bit more bite than he gets credit for. Same story with most creative players, it's assumed that they don't work hard just because they can play a bit. Seem to remember lots of people said that Gazza was a luxury when in reality he was a terrific ball winner as well as a play maker.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not putting Dyer in the Keane class as a ball winner, but I do think he's got a little bit more to his game than running at people. Also worth bearing in mind is that there are more ways to win the ball than with a crunching tackle. Pace and anticipation go a long way, and to my mind that's where we're short in the middle. Acuna, Speed and Lee are all strong tacklers, but they're also slow and often have to tackle when a quicker player wouldn't have. Then it looks as though they've won a difficult ball whereas someone like Dyer may pick up a loose ball without an opposing player getting near him.

It Seems likely to me that we're going to develop into a counter- attacking side (and possibly a very good one) and Dyer could be a key part of that. With Dyer, Robert and Bellamy's pace & Solano's passing (when he's in the mood) I thnk we'll see more of the ball than some people think.

-- Anonymous, November 07, 2001

So you're not a fan of the Leeds/Liverpool technique of putting two fairly tough boys in the middle, side by side, giving your wide boys more freedom? I suppose that's what we have been doing with Lee and Speed. Neither one of them is strong enough to play the holding role on their own - so they work the back of midfield as a pair. Hasn't really worked too well for us. Maybe Lee and Speed just arn't good enough leaving us with a defensive 442 istead of an attacking 442/424 like Liverpool use.

Arsenal used two hard(ish) men in the middle, accross the pitch, when they won the league (Petit and Viera). Leeds do it now, as do Liverpool. You could say that Manu could do it with Keane and Veron though I'm not sure if they do.

So maybe it is the way forward rather than a Batty behind a Dyer setup. Waddaya Reckon?

-- Anonymous, November 07, 2001

Wouldn't say that's a bad way to play, but it's certainly not the only way. Man United have dominated English football for the best part of a decade without playing 2 hard men in the middle - Scholes is anything but a hard man.

Not saying you're wrong, but I think it's highly dubious logic to say we should have 2 cloggers in midfield when by far and away the most successful club in the England in the last decade has 1 clogger and 1 attacking player. If anything we should be looking to emulate Manchester United rather than Leeds (no trophies under O'Leary), Arsenal (nowhere near Manchester United for 3 seasons and looking no closer to a Championship winning side this year) or Liverpool (5 trophies, 4 of which were Mickey Mouse) but nothing in the league in a decade).

There's more than 1 way to produce a winning team and I would suggest that one of the fundamentals, more important than systems and tactics, is that you hang onto your best players because you never know how long it may take (or how much it might cost) to replace them. Dyer is certainly one of our best players and I think we should be looking to find a suitable partner for him in the midfield, changing the way we play if necessary, rather than flogging him off.

Anyway, my point was that Dyer does a lot more ball winning than he's given credit for, and most of the names I've heard us linked with aren't half the player (fitness allowing) that Dyer is, whatever position or formation we play them.

-- Anonymous, November 07, 2001

Hey, I'm not saying we should play that way, I was throwing it open for discussion. You're absolutely right that MANU dominated with a traditional hardman + ball player but they seem to be moving away from that. Maybe Fergie thinks that you need a different stance to succeed in Europe which is why he bought Veron. Personally I think he wanted Veron because he could get him. I'm sure, given MANU's recent results, that we'll see a return to the traditional 442 formation that has served them so well in the past.

And for the record, I'd prefer a hardman + Dyer set up myself. But, as I said earlier, the hardman will need to be world class. Not because Dyer can't hack it, but because he'll be up against the two hardman teams like Liverpool and Leeds. Your opposition will always go for your weaknesses. We need to be covered on every angle. If we can be muscled by a team like Wimbeldon, then we'll lose to that kind of team. Blah blah blah, I'm off to play footy.

-- Anonymous, November 07, 2001

According to Championship Manager, Dyer has 20 / 20 for tackling skills, haven't seen him play for so long I can hardly remember if he can tackle or not.

-- Anonymous, November 08, 2001

Couldn't knock the skin off a rice pudding. 20 tackles in 19 games tells you all you need to know. He won't challenge anyone and is guaranteed to show us a step-over whenever he's due to receive a pass with anyone in clode attendance. A master of the hospital pass he's always ready to lay it off to someone else however badly placed they are if there's the chance of a tackle on him coming up. He prefers to "provide the link" between midfield and the forwards. Seeing as how he is reluctant to shoot unless he's sure of it going in and won't get his foot in he's a complete bloody luxury. Bellamy's taking his role and pissing all over him at the moment - he's no striker either but doesn't seem to be against hard work or having a shot when it's on.

2 stand-out performances for me were Leeds and Ipswich at home last season. Against Ipswich you'd have expected him to run his balls off to show them what they are missing but he was completely low-key and did naff-all in stark contrast to every ex-Mag we come up against. With Leeds we had an injury-ravaged squad and looked like doing nothing. We conceded an early goal and Dyer had spent 5 minutes exaggeratedly limping and signalling to the bench that he wanted substituting. Bobby came out and waved a fist at him and pointed to the Leeds goal. The rest of the lads rallied and we equalised. Realising that the wind had changed Dyer took off like Lazarus and ended up as man of the match.

He gives us the bare minimum on the pitch except for the odd 3 minutes when he fancies it. 10 goals (1 a pen) in 70 games is a miserable return for a player who doesn't carry his weight defensively. Gary Speed manages 1 in 5 and he's apparently a walking disgrace. Robson told Dyer last season that he had to start scoring goals if he was going to justify his place in the side and he even shoved him up front where he couldn't hide when Cort went down and Cordone aged 20 years in 1 month. Still nothing spectacular and I will be furious if he gets back in the side at the expense of Bellamy.

His on-field weaknesses aside, he's never shown the slightest intention of knuckling down and keeping himself fit. 3 times he's been given "final warnings" about his behaviour and still he's off behaving like a tit. Just last month he was bleating in the press about how worried he is that his injuries might keep him out of the Ingerlund team (not NUFC of course) and how does he demonstrate his desire to get back in condition and win a place in the side? Exactly, pissing his life up against the wall and getting into mither. Wanker.

-- Anonymous, November 08, 2001

According to Softie has a very high rating of success in hos tackling. But he only tackles when he knows he will succedd. The same goes for his shooting-scoring.

-- Anonymous, November 08, 2001

All competitions since 1993-94. Officially crap players who were more prolific than our most saleable asset in yellow:

Player	Apps	Mins	Goals	Pens	Total	App/Goal	Mins/Goal
Cole	72	6408	56	0	56	1.29	114
Ferdinand	83	7112	50	0	50	1.66	142
Allen	13	1032	4	3	7	1.86	147
Bellamy	19	1605	10	0	10	1.90	161
Shearer	186	16348	78	19	97	1.92	169
Cort	15	1226	7	0	7	2.14	175
Gavilan	8	218	1	0	1	8.00	218
Ferguson	40	2720	12	0	12	3.33	227
Guivarc'h	4	230	1	0	1	4.00	230
Kitson	49	3251	14	0	14	3.50	232
Asprilla	60	4042	16	1	17	3.53	238
Beardsley	161	13974	38	20	58	2.78	241
Mathie	29	1092	4	0	4	7.25	273
Jeffrey	5	294	1	0	1	5.00	294
Saha	12	692	2	0	2	6.00	346
Ameobi	37	2087	6	0	6	6.17	348
Robinson P	16	384	1	0	1	16.00	384
Lua Lua	34	770	2	0	2	17.00	385
Dalglish	13	776	2	0	2	6.50	388
Robert	13	1195	3	0	3	4.33	398
Barnes	40	2860	6	1	7	5.71	409
Glass	56	2930	7	0	7	8.00	419
Fox	70	5943	13	1	14	5.00	425
Cordone	27	1284	3	0	3	9.00	428
Ketsbaia	104	5688	13	0	13	8.00	438
Solano	134	10573	19	5	24	5.58	441
Rush	14	901	2	0	2	7.00	451
Gallacher	47	2884	6	0	6	7.83	481
Hamann	31	2519	5	0	5	6.20	504
Speed	167	14459	27	1	28	5.96	516
Andersson	32	2104	4	0	4	8.00	526
Dyer	70	5683	9	1	10	7.00	568
Tomasson	33	2326	4	0	4	8.25	582
Acuna	41	3094	5	0	5	8.20	619
Lee	326	27661	42	1	43	7.58	643
Maric	31	1479	2	0	2	15.50	740
Georgiades	13	752	1	0	1	13.00	752
Dabizas	120	10276	13	0	13	9.23	790
Caldwell S	14	801	1	0	1	14.00	801
Elliott R	99	8074	10	0	10	9.90	807
Gillespie	144	10678	13	0	13	11.08	821
Sellars	62	5073	6	0	6	10.33	846
Ginola	75	6059	7	0	7	10.71	866

-- Anonymous, November 08, 2001

There are some players in the yellow that I wouldn't exactly call crap as some have only played a handful of games and likewise some in white that I would have put in yellow. I get your point though about goal returns.

However, if we are looking to sell him, we have to get him playing well, otherwise we won't get enough money. If he does start playing well there will be outrage if and when we sell him. NUFC as a club can't win really (unless we keep him and he does really well)

I seem to remember him being a player who DID work his arse off though, not a lazy sod who whinged all match. He must have played about 20 of those games carrying an injury which would boost his goals to games ratio a bit, but he is only 22 and still has a lot of life left in him. I still think he has only been played in his best position a handful of times. Right wing is possibly the best place for him. Although Solano is a far, far better crosser of the ball, Dyer has the ability to run at defences and split them open, as well as having pace.

Pace terrifies all but the very strongest defences in today's game - centre backs have to big to be physical, but often can't cope with the small quick players. If we have side with abundance of pace we will do very well.

Saying that, I would still take £20m for him as we could buy a couple of players that are more needed.

I think you are being a little bit harsh on him Softie, perhaps it is influenced by the latest Spanish shenanigans?

-- Anonymous, November 08, 2001

Stats .... Dyer has started 52 league games for us, the other 18 being made up with cup and sub apearances. In his 52 starts he has 8 league goals. 7 of his last 8 starts were played up front with a 19 year old who'd never started Premiership games til then. Bit harsh to criticise him playing himself out of position and only managing 2 goals in those 7 games.

I like Dyer. Last season he was one of only three Newcastle players to actually take on opposition players (Glass and Shola, and I suppose Cordone if you want to be really pedantic). Without his pace we were horrendous to watch. The arrival of Bellamy has given us that pace back and petrified defences. Having two of them will be heaven.

-- Anonymous, November 08, 2001

That's why I sorted them by minutes/goal, it looks so much better than saying he only gets 1 goal every 7 appearances. likewise Glass can show his true quality as can Shola.

My biggest beef is that in 2 full seasons Dyer still shows nothing but potential and a propensity for getting into trouble. Shola came on more in 4 months last season than Dyer did in 2 years and Bellamy has outstripped the pair in 3 months. If Dyer can't turn over a new leaf by 12 games into his return then we can forget all about him. He's not a kid anymore and ought to be maturing as a player, not standing still.

p.s. Paul, if I'm being swayed by what happened in Spain then you will need to explain equally vindictive postings from me nigh on 18 months ago in the expired questions sections: can't stand the bugger. He's never earned his praise. Darren Huckerby is lightning fast, has scored a hattrick against Man Utd and been hailed as potentially great at 4 different clubs (well not the hattrick, but you know what I mean) and at the end of the day people finally realised that he's well into his "peak" and is sadly an ageing, slowing donkey with an attitude problem.

-- Anonymous, November 08, 2001

Oh, totally agree about some of the players in yellow not being crap, but that is how they have been described on here. If it were up to me then Shola would come on every game and should definitely be brought on when we go behind as he shows more close control and ability in the box than the rest of them put together - it's not like we'll score from a corner, is it?

Malcolm Allen, Kitson, Fox and co were all considered to be below the standard we were aiming for whilst Barnes and Rush were shadows of their former selves. Glass was my favourite midfielder but Bobby didn't seem to rate him so into the "crap" category he went. Some folk reckoned Big Dunc was a waste of space who limited our style, I thought he was a God. Plenty of people thought Tino was too inconsistent but he had too much to be a yellow. Ketsy certainly had his moments and Guivarc'h never received a chance to show what he was made of. However, they have all been pilloried on this forum at some time whilst Kieron Dyer gets lauded. Just wanted to demonstrate that the guy's reputation is built on sand.

-- Anonymous, November 08, 2001

BBS 'Quote of the Week' Award to Softie - ".....when Cordone aged 20 years in 1 month".

The truly amazing thing about this quote is that it is actually true! It's one of the Wonders of the Modern World.

-- Anonymous, November 08, 2001

I thought Fox was alright and was the type of player we needed at the time. Although I do remember one of his corners once where he kicked the corner flag......

-- Anonymous, November 08, 2001

Kegsy, I just sprayed Diet Coke (TM) all ower the screen and kegsbored

-- Anonymous, November 08, 2001

Bearing in mind the title of this thread, do you think we could swap Gav for Scholes?

-- Anonymous, November 08, 2001

No, but we may be able to swap him for Dwight Yorke.....

-- Anonymous, November 08, 2001