Married catholic priest in Belgium !!!!????

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In Belgium they just have ordain a married man till catholic priest , he was an ex-protestant vicar , isn't this a contradiction with the catholic laws !!__ Or Rent-a-priest , what do you think of this idea ????

Sorry for my broken english

-- Laurent LUG. (my__way_@hotmail.com), November 06, 2001

Answers

Laurent, Mon Ami--
What do you know about the ''Catholic laws''? It is permitted to ordain an already married priest; if he converts to Catholicism and received Holy Orders in the Church. This is not the first time. It requires a dispensation.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), November 06, 2001.

Besides, in the Eastern (Byzantine) Rite of the Catholic Church (still under the Pope) priests can get married.

-- Christina (introibo2000@yahoo.com), November 06, 2001.

Eugene,

I just read a reference in a Tom Clancy book (Executive Orders) that states that it is a poorly kept secret that Catholic priests in Africa are not really expected to comply with the celebacy laws of the priesthood and are regularly married after they are priests (with a "look the other way" attitude).

Now, Clancy is not writing a theological book of course, but he usually interjects well-researched tidbits on many topics. Is there any truth to his statement or is it just fiction for the book?

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), November 06, 2001.


It's a contradiction over the whole line , because this priest should be divorced before he can be a priest , but the pope dissaprove a divorce !! This guy was , and still is , married at the time he became catholic __ You can be only a priest if you never were married , if you take the catholic law literal , or you must be divorced before you changed your "old"religion into the catholic religion !! That's how I see it !!!!

(I am an atheist !!!!)

-- Laurent LUG. (my__way_@hotmail.com), November 06, 2001.


Dear David,
Tom Clancy has not one iota to speak for the Catholic clergy. No matter what his research may turn up (and scandal does exist in some quarters) it is not the prerogative of Catholics to ''look the other way'' at an abuse. The Church has no ''poorly kept secrets'', in Africa or anywhere. If there is scandal, it is to brought into the open by canon law.

Africa is a poor unfortunate continent in which many evils have existed always, and continue to exist. If Clancy wrote a novel about the boundless grace and mercy that missionaries of the Catholic Church have brought to Africa, he wouldn't make very much money with it. He is always sure to make money pleasing the palates of worldly readers, however. You may judge then, what his themes will concentrate on. They won't notice much but the evils; while discounting most of the good.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), November 06, 2001.



Hi David B,

Long time no see friend ! You sure do pick your threads to participate on forum with !

David S

-- David S (asdzxc8176@aol.com), November 06, 2001.


Laurent, as Eugene started to explain above in his first response, the Pope allowed in limited circumstances that certain Protestant ministers who are married and wish to convert to Catholicism can, after studying for the priesthood, be ordained priests and still remain married. It is a special dispensation, to allow these men who wish to enter the Faith to remain in their calling to minister and to remain married. The Pope is his wisdom allowed this, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It is not for you to say if he is wrong.

-- Christina (introibo@address.com), November 06, 2001.

I meant to say "the Pope in his wisdom....."

-- Christina (introibo@address.com), November 06, 2001.

Jmj

Hello, Christina.

I hope you don't mind if I clarify something that you wrote:
"Besides, in the Eastern (Byzantine) Rite of the Catholic Church (still under the Pope) priests can get married."

Precisely as you have written this, it is not accurate. Actually, no priest in any Catholic rite can get married, unless he receives the Pope's permission to leave the active priesthood first. And so, no active priest can get married.
What you have in mind is the fact that Catholic men of the Eastern rites [not just Byzantine] can get married and then later be ordained as diocesan priests. Once ordained, an unmarried Eastern rite priest cannot be wed, and a married priest cannot remarry if he becomes a widower. Finally, it is only outside of North America that married Eastern rite men can marry. In the U.S. and Canada, even Eastern rite priests must be unmarried celibates. (My understanding is that this special rule was made by a pope, in response to a request from North American bishops of the Latin rite, lest there be any envy on the part of Latin rite priests. I think that I have heard that there is a movement afoot to have the rule rescinded, so that the full Eastern tradition can be lived throughout the whole world.)

No married Eastern rite priest can be ordained a bishop. Eastern bishops come from monasteries, not from parishes.

St. James, pray for us.
God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), November 06, 2001.


Thank you for your very accurate information, John...you are right as far as my previous research into the Eastern Rites are concerned. Further to the Eastern Rites, no married priest is eligible to become an Eastern Rite bishop.

Laurent, I think it is poor form for you, as a self-proclaimed athiest, to decree what is an accurate Catholic doctrine. Better to keep silent and allow others to believe you are a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. Your posting of this information strikes me as an attack against the Church, and me personally, as a member of Her Holy Body. Not an advisable method to remain in the already tenuous tolerance of this forum you have been given to date.

-- Melissa (holy_rhodes@earthlink.net), November 06, 2001.



Eugene, I stand corrected about Eastern rite priests being married before they are ordained vs. after they are ordained. I beg to differ, with your statement that in the US Eastern rite priests don't marry. Although I'm Roman rite, I used to live a block away from a Hungarian Byzantine rite church and attended Mass (excuse me, Liturgy) there on occasion. The priest was married. Perhaps there was a very recent change in this practice of which I'm not aware?

-- Christina (introibo@address.com), November 06, 2001.

Sorry, I was responding to John, not Eugene. It's too cold here to type tonight!

-- Christina (introibo@address.com), November 06, 2001.

Laurent,

You ask a question, and than you answer the same question 2 different times yourself. You said, "that the way I see it". But Laurent you are a run-away Catholic and a pathetic atheist. You see things in a different way than Catholics do.

How can any Catholic on this forum take you serious? You are kind of a joke in my opinion! It was only 18 days ago you said, "I just want to say goodbye", and than you talked about leaving for good. Today youthink you are a expert on the Vaticans electricity, you know all about the holy Popes computer skills. Who do you think you are ? Now you show everyone how ignorant you realy are! You seem more inteligent when you say nothing!

David S

-- David S (asdzxc8176@aol.com), November 06, 2001.


I am sorry , But if I don't ask , it's impossible to know the answer !! __ I don't mean it as a bad something !! __ But if I ask , doesn't matter what , it seems you are insulted for every question I ask , I know I ask very hard questions , you know what , I have no voilent intentions in me , I know this a catholic forum , I am not here to make jokes about you , I am an open man , I ask and never I get something possitive as an answer !!

-- Laurent LUG. (my__way_@hotmail.com), November 07, 2001.

Eugene,

I didn't mean to infer that Clancy was speaking for the Catholic Church or was writing a book about Catholicism in any way. I was reading his novel "Executive Orders" written a few years ago which has amazing parallels to the recent terrorist attacks - anyway, one of his characters in the book made a reference to a married priest in Africa along with the "worst kept secret" comment. It was really just a comment in a book, not intended as an expose of any sort. But it made me wonder if it was true (rather than just fiction) since Clancy is known for weaving his fictions based on truth. In fact, his stories are so accurate from a military and intelligence perspective that his novels never fail to cause quite a stir among the military and intelligence communities, even to the point of his having been questionned about his sources of information (early on) and even being sought out as a consultant these days on how to deal with the present terrorist attacks. So I naturally wondered about his statement concerning married priests in Africa.

And then I decided to check out the forum yesterday and here was this thread . . . so I decided to ask out of curiosity. I remember the recent situation in which the Archbishop who got married in Africa and how much of a controversy that stirred up. And it made me wonder if priests in his archdiosese (spelling?) might be among those that Clancy was referring. Afterall, if the Archbishop felt free to marry, then you might expect that he supports that position and perhaps even allowed it among his priests.

Either way, I was just asking out of curiosity.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), November 07, 2001.



David--
I know where your question originated. In just about any novel you may find characters decide what's true and pass judgments.

Many prominent English writers have led the world to believe the Spanish Inquisition was utterly and irredeemably evil. They painted the Inquisitors (and still do)in those lurid colors that all our so-called historians now accept as factual. I really don't think many of them had the research teams available to Tom Clancy today. In the recent past writers like Graham Greene offered a more balanced view of the Catholic Church. Now, however, a novel by definition must investigate everybody's sex life or become a flop. Meaning that, if you write the African missions into your plot, you take it to that lowest common denominator. Who is the priest sleeping with? Give me a break! For every indecent man who wears the Roman collar, you have a thousand priests that practice virtue and self-denial. If they once fall from grace, they arise and confess. This is the love of God we're talking about. It makes heroic lives possible.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), November 07, 2001.


Laurent, it is not your questions we have a problem with. We have a problem with you ANSWERING the questions of others on a subject that you have no knowledge of. There is a vast difference in these two. If you don't understand the difference between a question and answer, then please...find out.

-- Melissa (holy_rhodes@earthlink.net), November 07, 2001.

And I forgot to include something else that rubs us the wrong way...

Dismissing our answers to your questions as idiotic schlock. We do, for the most part, know that of which we speak and believe.

-- Melissa (holy_rhodes@earthlink.net), November 07, 2001.


Jmj
Yes, Melissa. Your last comment pertains to what got us upset at Laurent in this thread.
He opened the thread by mentioning his surprise about the married Belgian convert being ordained. Then Eugene and Christina explained situations in which there are married Catholic priests (1. converts from Protestantism ... 2. priests of Eastern Catholic rites).
At that point, we expected Laurent to say, "Thanks. I did not know about those exceptions to the rule of celibacy." But instead this is what he wrote:
"It's a contradiction over the whole line , because this priest should be divorced before he can be a priest, but the pope dissaprove a divorce !! This guy was , and still is , married at the time he became catholic __ You can be only a priest if you never were married, if you take the catholic law literal , or you must be divorced before you changed your 'old' religion into the catholic religion !! That's how I see it !!!!"

Now do you understand our objection, Laurent? You were mistaken, but were unwilling to admit it. You were answering your own question and rejecting our answers, even though they were correct. (You even used four exclamation points!!!!)
God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), November 07, 2001.


Jmj
Thanks for mentioning that Hungarian Byzantine priest, Christina.
It is possible, as you suggest, that the Vatican is now giving dispensations from that old rule about North American Eastern rite priests (or the rule has been suppressed entirely).
But if that has not happened yet, I can think of two other possible explanations:
-- The priest was married and ordained in Europe before coming over here.
-- The priest was formerly in an Eastern Orthodox church (not in union with Rome), was married and ordained here in North America, but then became a convert to Catholicism.
God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), November 07, 2001.

Jmj

David B., you wrote:
"I remember the recent situation in which the Archbishop who got married in Africa and how much of a controversy that stirred up. And it made me wonder if priests in his archdiosese (spelling?) might be among those that Clancy was referring. Afterall, if the Archbishop felt free to marry, then you might expect that he supports that position and perhaps even allowed it among his priests."

Just for the record, I wanted to clarify several points:

-- There was an event that has been called a "group wedding" ceremony, conducted by the Unification Church's Rev. Sun Myung Moon. It took place, not in Africa, but in New York City, on May 27, 2001.

-- In this ceremony, an early-retired Catholic archbishop from Zambia named Emmanuel Milingo (age 71) and a 43-year-old acupuncturist from Korea named Maria Sung pronounced vows.

-- This does not mean that "the Archbishop ... got married." He most certainly did not. A priest or bishop who still exercises his ministry (i.e., has not sought and received laicization) is INCAPABLE of receiving the Sacrament of Marriage. The language used is that Abp. Milingo "attempted marriage." The "union" of Milingo and Sung was null and void.

-- Feelings are irrelevant ("the Archbishop felt free to marry"). "Peter" has the power to bind and loose, and the archbishop was bound. In fact, the archbishop bound himself by promising celibacy when he was ordained. The same promise was made by priests in his archdiocese. Therefore he was incapable of "allow[ing marriage] among his priests."

-- Archbishop Milingo appears to have mental (or serious spiritual) problems. Some years ago, the pope had to relieve him of his duties as archbishop in his native country. Since then, he has caused other difficulties, the latest being the attempted marriage. To his credit, he wrote a letter to the pope (later made public), stating that he was recommitting his life "in the Catholic Church with all my heart, renouncing my living together with Maria Sung and my relationship with the Rev. Moon and the Family Federation for World Peace. ... I am your humble and obedient servant."

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), November 07, 2001.


Answers for naughty me. This thread has the information you are looking for. David S

-- David (asdzxc8176@aol.com), March 30, 2002.

Dear sirs, every once in a while I hope you read how one of the masses talks on the subject of priests committing this sin of sexual communication with young boys by priests of different denominations belonging to a church that find that even those with so called connections to the Lord do commit sin, and commit the sin of omission and the sin of teaching the young how to be dead long before they have even been married, This sin of not marrying brings the young priest into perversion very early in life, how can a priest kill spiritually, morally, and mentally a young boy in the name of sexual release, and then turn around and teach the young in his church that to sneak and sin by the teachers of the church is ok. How can a priest go from having a woman to getting a sexual releasse by pervert acts of sexual degeneracy. I cannot and will not be part of this charade in the name of protecting the priests of perversion so that they can continue their perverted ideas an acts. We need to have men of the cloth who marry and then come into the church. I am not interested in a man giving an oath to the shadows on the walls saying that he will remain a virgin in the name of Jesus Christ, and then forcing a young man to commit perverted acts for the pleasure of a man who thinks he still has this high act of self denial by sneaking around and harming young children. The idea that priests must marry women and do good acts by not only raising his family in the church ways and not sneaking around while he is married and commit perversions with children, I must ask this question, and please allow me to ask this question, how can a man say that he must not marry, and then be a priest in the church, is it because he would not like to marry a woman, is it because his perversions are already formed, is it because he wants to bed men, and not women. Is it because in the church he can find an excuse, by messing around with these young boys and when caught he claims to be sorry because of the sins he committed and he did it because of a desire for the love of a woman, when he really wants a young boy to have sex with. In other words is this priest a homosexual pervert already and is his acts of sexual release nothing more than an act of sex hidden from all so that he can commit an act of perversion, when ever he finds a young man that is weak in his ways, and easy to win over. While you are at it, is it a shame that priests of all sorts can run around finding sex with young boys in the church as the Christ on Earth the most holy father, the Holy See becomes older and very much out of the daily happennings of the church's daily business, because of his old age. Is this not the time that the second most holy of the church's army, the holy Cardinals, form an allegiance to deal with the problem quickly and thouroly, for these acts are not from the outside, these acts are not from outsiders who want to destroy the church, these acts are from the church's holy threads. The same threads that will be on line as the first line of defense to protect and to seek those who would harm and destroy the makeup of the church's foundation. Or is the church waiting for a charlemagne to march threw the church destroying those that have the power to sin but not the power to cleanse themselves of this disease. How come my church is dominated by those who cn run around destroying the church from within but not have the power to run around through the church cleanning and ridding, and changing where needed the inside of the church to show a new and warm face that is innocent of perverted desires, who is always in a state of power so that when it is time to point the finger at those that hide in the shadows of the bowls of hide aways so that no one can see their sinful ways so that no one can see the sinful actions of those that can do and hide at the same time. We need a cleansing of the interior, we need to look at our selves before others look at us, and we must be strong enough to stand up in front of all others to see the holiness of our teachers, the ability of our priests to walk and have thousands walk with them because they all know that truth is good, honesty is clean, spirituality is wisdom in action. I am ashamed, and because I am weak I am also angry, I want to be led not by those that are unclean, but I want to follow those that have the ability to show others by their sacrifices they are doing things the way God would want us to do them. I am screaming for the leaders to come and surround us once again and to lead us as the herder leading the sheep and not the sheep leading the sheep. You must clean the halls in the name of the people who depend on you for their daily bread, for in prayer there will always be those who pray and those that pray with them. DO IT, FIX IT, do not make excuses like the Cardinal today when he chose to give excuses as to why some people were missing from this most important issue, priests and little boys, you will not live down this insane sin by turning the other cheek so as not to show it being smacked. This church must do pennance, because even though the masses did not take part in the sins of priests with little boys, but we did take part in its own type of sins, for it was all of us who hid behind our own skirts as we heard the stories of this perversion, and we did nothing about it. we must now do what is painful and needed we must all take an end of a mop and clean along with everyone else, and together with all our pushing we can clean this deed and move on as others have moved on when they have found rotten apples in their own baskits.

-- Joseph T. Rocca (roccloop@tampabay.rr.com), April 24, 2002.

Dear Joseph--

Your opinion is shared by many in present-day western society. You and they are all mistaken.

''I cannot and will not be part of this charade in the name of protecting the priests of perversion so that they can continue their perverted ideas and acts. We need to have men of the cloth who marry and then come into the Church. (What a dramatic sign of ignorance!) --Open your eyes! Nobody is protecting them!

We need holy men to enter the priesthood. Not perverts. THAT is the problem! These men had a perverted need before they came to the Church as predators.

You have forgotten, I guess, the many thousands of good, honorable and pure priests of the Catholic Church. Or is it your considered opinion that the priest you were baptised by, the priest you confessed to, who gave you absolution, the one who married you, and the one who might be your own relation-- all of them were sex fiends fighting down a persistent itch? --An erection that never goes away?

You should use the brains God gave you. Have charity and don't group all priests in the same evil category as a very small minority. Stop judging the holy priesthood like some idiot on Jerry Springer's show. Be an honest Catholic. We are all sinners. The worst of our sins aren't public. These evil-doers have been exposed in public; and that's a good, useful thing to see. Let them face justice, and keep your ridiculous opinions privately. If you can't say something intelligent, don't write anything at all.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), April 24, 2002.


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