Are people more paranoid about street shooting Leicaphiles?

greenspun.com : LUSENET : Leica Photography : One Thread

Hi everyone,

During the past week I've been confronted by strangers about doing my street shooting. Once there was this homeless guy who nearly wanted to beat me up but I had my FED 3 ready to defend myself with an all metal rangefinder this weekend. A few days before, there was this guy who was carrying Fujifilm 4 x 6 film packs and was admonishing me for shooting pictures using hyperfocal distances and I was wondering whether he was this Unabomber looking nerd who is planning to blow up something in the future and using a view camera to plan something odd... geewhiz... Are people just getting more paranoid about candid photography these days because of the Sept. 11th attacks? Just wondering :(

Leica-philly yours, Alfie

-- Albert Wang (albert.wang@ibx.com), November 05, 2001

Answers

hi are you a member of the streetphoto group? if not check it out at http://www.topica.com/lists/streetphoto/read hope this helps Brian http://www.35mmf8.org

-- brian david stevens (briandavidstevens@excite.com), November 05, 2001.

I don't think that it matters a whit what camera you're using. It's all about *your* behavior. I do street photography with Leicas, Rolleis, and Polaroid Pack Cameras. If you act paranoid, and like you're intruding, people will treat you accordingly.

Were you attempting to photograph the homeless man? I don't know how you were behaving, but most of the photos of homeless people I've seen on the web are "sneak shots." That can create tension. Act sneaky and people will be suspicious. As for the guy with the 4x6 film packs, he's sounds like a snob, pure and simple. Probably one of those guys that thinks 35mm is for wimps.

-- Richard Le (rvle@yahoo.com), November 05, 2001.


I don't think that it matters a whit what camera you're using. It's all about *your* behavior. I do street photography with Leicas, Rolleis, and Polaroid Pack Cameras. If you act paranoid, and like you're intruding, people will treat you accordingly.

Were you attempting to photograph the homeless man? I don't know how you were behaving, but most of the photos of homeless people I've seen on the web are "sneak shots." That can create tension. Act sneaky and people will be suspicious. As for the guy with the 4x6 film packs, he's sounds like a snob, pure and simple. Probably one of those guys that thinks 35mm is for wimps.

-- Richard Le (rvle@yahoo.com), November 05, 2001.


Actually I found out that the solution about people feeling paranoid is:

The basic rule is that any person in a public place may be photographed and has no legal recourse if the photographed is published on the Internet or anywhere else. The most significant exception is that images of identifiable people cannot be used to advertise goods or services without their consent. This means that for the most part you are free to photograph the thousands of lawyers and students in law roaming the streets of Washington DC.

Bert P. Krages Attorney at Law 6665 S.W. Hampton Street, Suite 200 Portland, Oregon 97223

Author of: Legal Handbook for Photographers: The Rights and Liabilities of Making Images

==^================================================================ This email was sent to: albert.wang@ibx.com

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bz8Rru.a9Jx7n Or send an email to: streetphoto-unsubscribe@topica.com AOL users click here.

T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^================================================================

No wonder peeps out there are scared of street photogs.

-- Albert Wang (albert.wang@ibx.com), November 05, 2001.


I agree with Richard Le 100%. I haven't noticed any general shift in reactions to my street photography since 9/11.

-- Mike Dixon (mike@mikedixonphotography.com), November 05, 2001.


I actually wasn't trying to photograph the homeless man on purpose but I was shooting using hyperfocal focusing on random subjects in the street. Man, perhaps he would prefer me to shoot at eyelevel instead? :)

-- Albert Wang (albert.wang@ibx.com), November 05, 2001.

Are people just getting more paranoid about candid photography these days because of the Sept. 11th attacks?

Don't think so - people are just more paranoid generally. I've been doing candid people photography on and off since the early 80's and there's no doubt about it, people are much more hostile now than they were 20 years ago.

Part of the territory alas. OTOH, when you do manage to get a good, in-close shot, the sense of achievement is much greater!

BTW here's a tip - don't use hyperfocal distances so much. This is pretty lazy and gives you a bit too much depth of field, increasing the background clutter. Instead I've found you get more interesting results if you teach yourself to judge a set distance (HCB used 4m, I use 2.5m) and then approach your subjects until they are in range. This way you can also use wider lens apertures, making use of the lens "bokeh" Leica lenses are so famed for.

Recent examples (I got this URL wrong last time, so hopefully better luck now): http://nemeng.com/photo/fom2/

-- Andrew Nemeth (azn@nemeng.com), November 05, 2001.


"No wonder peeps out there are scared of street photogs."

I don't follow the "logic" here. How do you get from "it's legal to post photos of people in public on the internet for non-commercial uses" to "it's sensible for people to be afraid of street photographers"?

-- Mike Dixon (mike@mikedixonphotography.com), November 05, 2001.


What I meant to be exact is that people know that if they don't have legal recourse about being photographed then they will be scared to show up in pictures... scary thought I guess for some :\

-- Albert Wang (albert.wang@ibx.com), November 05, 2001.

Why is it difficult to understand the suspicious reluctance and, sometimes, outright hostility engendered by street photographers who photograph people for no apparent reason, at least not to the people being photographed? I notice that some of these candid cameraists like to refer to themselves as "street shooters" Perhaps some Freudian connection here?

-- John Myers (mymacv@aol.com), November 05, 2001.


People don't seem too afraid of using ATM machines, going into stores with video surveillance, or attending televised sporting events. And they -do- still have legal recourse if their images are used in a defamatory manner.

I don't think the issue is as simple at "they're afraid that people will see what they look like in public;" if that were the case, they wouldn't go out in public.

-- Mike Dixon (mike@mikedixonphotography.com), November 05, 2001.


"Why is it difficult to understand the suspicious reluctance and, sometimes, outright hostility engendered by street photographers . . ."

Because it's not consistent my real-world experiences photographing thousands of people over hundreds hours. In all that time, I've only had a handful of people ask that I not photograph them (in contrast, I've had dozens specifically ask me to photograph them).

I realize that situations vary and attitudes differ in different areas, but people simply are -not- universally opposed to being photographed in public. If you're consistently encountering a lot of hostility from people you're photographing, you need to look at your own behavior rather than attributing the problem to some nonexistent fundamental human anti-photography trait.

And if I say I'm going to shoot a couple of models next weekend, is that a reflection of my hatred of and hostility toward women? I doubt the models would agree since they're usually very happy to be "shot" by me. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. . .

-- Mike Dixon (mike@mikedixonphotography.com), November 05, 2001.


How people may look in public or their legal recourse is besides the point, and I don't think it enters into the equation. Again, I've found it's all about how you behave. I live in Manhattan and I've walked up to random street vendors, people on the street, cops, etc and quickly snapped their photo. A smile, a little nod of the head and I was off. No sneaking around, no gigantic telephoto lens. Only once has a subject protested. Yes, since 9/11 people are generally more paranoid, but as long as you behave openly and in a friendly manner, you shouldn't have problems.

-- Richard Le (rvle@yahoo.com), November 05, 2001.

I've got street shots of all sorts of people: sad people, happy people, indifferent people, naked people (it was New Orleans, if you're wondering), and I can only recall a couple of folks NOT wanting to be photographed -- one objected mildly, the other strenuously. Many more people have come up and asked or demanded that I photograph them. I agree with above posters who suggest that it is your attitude, rather than theirs, that matters most. If you're trying to get "sneak" shots, you'd better be able to do it without subjects catching on, otherwise they may be upset at being duped. (The best camera for this, BTW, may be the original Hexar set to silent mode: with AE, AF, and almost total silence, you can do wonderful hip shots with subjects none the wiser.) It's probably safer to be completely open about what you are doing and act as if it is no big deal, because it isn't, really. And I haven't noticed any difference in peoples' attitudes.

-- Douglas Kinnear (douglas.kinnear@colostate.edu), November 05, 2001.

Hi, Alfie:

I don't think it has anything to do with Leica cameras specifically.

Anyhow, the only time I had such a problem was with this guy who said I couldn't photograph his very hairy and dirty DOG who was sleeping by the door of his house (a really poor one) because the dog belonged there (?)

But later on and after I presented due excuses we had a long conversation on photography and he allowed me to take a picture which I did though really unwillingly because the dog had waked up because of so much argueing and didn't show the same look that had originally caught my attention. I trashed the photo.

But that was long before september 11th anyhow ;-)

Cheers, Alfie.

-Iván

-- Iván Barrientos M (ingenieria@simltda.tie.cl), November 05, 2001.



If you are talking about street life in the West, and in NYC in particular, well then yes, we've all turned into a pack of snarling, surly work-camp inmates.

Having lived a few years now in Asia, the contrast in people's street 'attitude' is really striking between over there and here.

The uniformity of extreme street civility in countries as far apart economically and geographically, as Burma and Japan, will make you wonder why it is not like that any more in large Western cities.

And one does have memories that it was much nicer say, 25 years ago or more (though less safe) in NYC.

-- Mani Sitaraman (bindumani@pacific.net.sg), November 05, 2001.


I have been "street shooting" in Asia and China for a few years and have found basically 2 attitudes. One is that in China the subject reacts vigorously and turns away or puts a hand up. My local friends tell me the subject may think I am from the local police-even though I am clearly a westerner- and in a controlled society that may not be uncommon. OR, they be doing something they don't want to be caught at, such as one time in Shanghai last month when I "shot" 2 guys selling leopard and other wild animal pelts: Man even a leopard could have caught them they ran so fast.

In N America, many subjects think people who photograph them are from the Immigration service, so teh reaction is understanable, even tho' teh cops use stealth and Loooooong lenses.

Dealing with this is part of the fun of "street shooting" not to mention a source of good shots of them objecting.

Most of teh time I smile point to the camera, then to them and 8 times out of ten its OK. Many times they smile, laugh, point, bring out their kids or families or ask for copies, as many do not have pictures of themselves. One waitress in a restaurant I frequented in Shanghai was so appreciative, that when the restaurant shut down and she went back to her home province, I was told the only thing she took besides her clothes were the 8x10s I gave her of 3 shots I had taken(with my M6).

Only twice have I had problems, both from drunk guys: one in 1994 in rural Russia and once in 1997 in Beijing. In both cases I just walked away and left them shouting.

Last year I spent an hour shooting people on Broadway & 57th and not a single person even noticed or acknowledged me. I felt sort of ignored, but no hassle.

3M. with a 28mm lens, f8, @125th using XP2 gets 90% good shots Smile, be polite and be prepared for a few rejections.

Cheers

-- RICHARD ILOMAKI (richard.ilomaki@f,mglobal.com), November 05, 2001.


OOOPS

That should be " a leopard could NOT have caught them.

Here in Singapore (and Malaysia) I have never had a problem and have met quite a few friendly and interesting people with whom I wound up having intersting conversations.

My "under construction" website "www.rjiphoto.com" has one example. OOOPS again. I thought I knew how to create a link, but I guess not. Any help?

RJI

-- RICHARD ILOMAKI (richard.ilomaki@hotmail.com), November 05, 2001.


Alfie,

Probably just one of those weeks! I rarely have people get angry, but it definatly does happen. Acutally it is very surising how few people have been bothered.

Of course there was a time when I had to shoot an assignment at a homeless shelter. I was told to ask permission to shoot pictures before I did (in a situation like that I always do anyway). Out of nowhere one of the guys there, who had obviously been drinking, started yelling at me for taking his picture (which I didn't - I wasn't even near him). Anyway he continued to yell at me and demand my film (which I wouldn't give him). I promised him that even if I did accidently get him in a picture, I wouldn't run it. HE wouldn't settle down and after he started to threaten to kill me I decided it was time to leave. Thankfully I did have a picture that would work.

When people give me a look for shooting their picture I'll usually talk to them and tell them what I'm doing and why, and they usually don't mind, or they will ask me politly to not take their picture. Sometimes, however, there is nothing you can do. I must admit that in 5 years any many, many encounters that was the worst one i've had.

Just one of those days :)

john

-- john locher (locherjohn@hotmail.com), November 06, 2001.


For all street shooters,

I am a photographer too but I consider it extremely rude and an invasion of my personal privacy to take my picture without my prior permission. Please have the courtesy to ask my permission first! If you are taking pictures of others on the street "without prior permission", perhaps they too resent the rude action. LB

-- Luther Berry (lberrytx@aol.com), November 07, 2001.


Luther, I can sympathise with your feelings about this, but the only way to get good background material for any kind of documentary feature is to steal snaps, whether on the street, in bars or wherever. If people are always posing for you, it just doesn`t work. And in the time it takes to ask permission, the significant action/content just isn`t there anymore. The 35 mm camera is ideal for this kind of photography, leicas do a reasonable job at it, although I often wish I had a Nikon F5 with a 24-50 zoom on full auto.

-- R (rob@robertappleby.com), November 08, 2001.

". . . I consider it extremely rude and an invasion of my personal privacy to take my picture without my prior permission."

Just curious, but when you're in a public place, do you expect the people around you to ask your permissions before:

a.) smoking a cigarette, b.) walking a dog, c.) carrying a crying baby, d.) speaking to you, e.) blocking your view, f.) brushing against you, g.) hearing a conversation you might be having, or h.) looking at you?

I can make arguments about how any of these activities "invade my personal privacy," causing me annoyance, stress, and physical discomfort. However, since I am in a public place, I question whether it's reasonable for me to expect everyone to behave exactly according to my wishes.

-- Mike Dixon (mike@mikedixonphotography.com), November 08, 2001.


Mike is right. It is unreasonable not to allow someone to photograph you as long as they are not being a pain about it. In fact there is nothing they can do about it anyway. But there is no doubt some people ARE paranoid, particularly "struggling actors" who believe that somehow by taking their picture you will end up making piles of money from their image. We should be so lucky! We just have to live with it - it is all part of the challenge. But most of the time people do not mind as long as you clearly not pushing a lens right into their face and you have to be quick or people do lose patience.

-- Robin Smith (smith_robin@hotmail.com), November 09, 2001.

wow, I was looking for just this kind of thread, i.e., hostility toward the photographer. I am doing a small documentary about chinatown and the lower east side.

just recently, somewhere deep in the lower east side, I have encountered some slight hostility (which is not unusual for the lower east side) not with taking a photo of a person, but of a church building. as I was doing so, this person walks up to me out of the blue and tells me the church is copyright, and why I was taking "pictures". well, I am on a public street, and I am photographing for my own use; then he left me alone. I got home and checked Title 17 USC 120a to make sure.

Later next week, I had to come back to finish off a small detail this time photographing a building next door, a social services agency, just the front, with noone in the photo. this same person sees me, and I realize the old geezer works there. He proceeds to yell at me, and goes again into this copyright nonsense. it then becomes a shouting match to my mistake. I should have ignored what this idiot was saying, now I was the idiot for pushing it.

know your rights as artists, don't be bullied. and with each new encounter, you only get stronger and more inured (sp?) and mroe able to ignore the ignorance around you.

-- RChin (snowbird8@hotmail.com), March 09, 2002.


just recently, somewhere deep in the lower east side, I have encountered some slight hostility (which is not unusual for the lower east side)

Haha. I live in the Lower East Side. You really don't know what you're talking about.

-- Richard (rvle@yahoo.com), March 10, 2002.


Moderation questions? read the FAQ