Hello friends, I've come across a number of positive reviews on Voigtlander 21mm F4 and now considering to buy one and sell myLeica 21mm pre asph (E60) to take advantage of the price differnece. It would help my Noctilux acquisition fund rather nicely:-) I would be grateful for any comments from this forum so I can make as informed a decision as possible. Many thanks in advance. Sawadee Krub, Yuthapol L. PS the price of Voigt in BKK is c. Bt13,000 (c. USD290) with viewfinder. I can sell my Leica 21m for c. USD1,100.

-- Yuth L. (nuchyut@asianet.co.th), October 30, 2001

Answers

Why don't you try the Voightlander for a short while from the shop and take some comparitive shots before buying this will at least give you a feel for the difference. Following this I would then buy the Voightlander and keep for a month of using or so until I was happy with the way it performed in comparison to the old Leica. Selling a mint voightlander would not loose you too much money, but trying to get your old Leica back aswell would be expensive and difficult......

-- Richard (richard@designblue.co.uk), October 30, 2001.

I cannot give you more than common sense advice:

If you use your 21 mm a lot, keep your Leica lens. Otherwise, you can think about doing the exchange.

I wanted to try the 21 mm focal lenght with which I was unfamiliar without ruining myself. I bought the Voigt. and shot a lot with it. I love the 21 mm focal length. As for the Voigt. it is a very good lens. No visible corner light fall-off, good definition... On the minus side, it handles flare very poorly: Do not include the sun in your shots. When I first looked at the lens I thought the lens shade looked totally inadequate: It is totally inadequate. Okay, designing a lens shade on a lens of this focal must be hard, but still...

If your Leica 21 mm doesn't flare easily and you use it frequently, I would not do the swap. Otherwise, you can do it and end-up with a very good 21 mm at a bargain price.

I must admit I am biased: As a disturbed Leica fan, now that I discovered the 21 mm focal lens, I'm wondering at how much better my pictures would look with the Leica glass. I'm beginning to think about doing an exchange the other way around...

-- Xavier Colmant (xcolmant@powerir.com), October 31, 2001.

My experience is to recommend to you to NEVER sell your Leica lenses. Regardless of their vintage, the Leitz / Leica lenses are jewels, capable of exquisite photograph making. I realize that the Voigtlander lenses are very good, buy I have always regretted selling / trading away Leica lenses to improve my cash flow. FWIW

-- David (pagedt@attglobal.net), October 31, 2001.

As far as CV 21/4 goes -- I agree with above comments about very good performance and being prone to flare. Cosina released new improved rectangular metal shade that fits 21/4 and 25/4 -- http://www.cameraquest.co m/VC21rh.htm. I just got mine but have not shot anything with it yet. Stay tuned.

-- Alexander Grekhov (grekhov@wgukraine.com), October 31, 2001.

I just recieved my Voigtlander 21mm and have yet to run any film through it. Voigtlander has introduced a RECTANGULAR lens shade for the 21mm & 25mm lenses to deal with the flare issue. CameraQuest has them for $49.

http://www.cameraquest.com/VC21rh.htm

If you have the 21 or 25 lenes you should get this shade. It's well made.

-- Tony Oresteen (aoresteen@lsqgroup.com), October 31, 2001.

Looks like Alexander & I had the same thought at the same time. Sorry for duplicate post!

-- Tony Oresteen (aoresteen@lsqgroup.com), October 31, 2001.

Unless you really need a Noct, I would not sell the Leica lens as it is a stop faster and it is always good idea to have the speed. The Elmarit is a pretty good lens and I doubt that the VC is any better, especially at f2.8...

If you did not already have the Leica lens then my advice would be different, suggesting you try out the VC first.

-- Robin Smith (smith_robin@hotmail.com), October 31, 2001.

Question: How is a lens shade on any lens going to help reducing flare where the sun is in the picture? A hood on a 21mm lens is especially limited, as the 90 degree angle of coverage doesn't allow for any real depth on the hood. Either a lens has great "into the sun" flare resistance or not-(like the old 20mm f3.5 Nikkor). A hood will not help at all in those instances

-- Andrew Schank (aschank@flash.net), October 31, 2001.

Andrew said: Question: How is a lens shade on any lens going to help reducing flare where the sun is in the picture? A hood on a 21mm lens is especially limited, as the 90 degree angle of coverage doesn't allow for any real depth on the hood. Either a lens has great "into the sun" flare resistance or not-(like the old 20mm f3.5 Nikkor). A hood will not help at all in those instances .

I agree 100% on you with that. My previous post was confusing. I allways test lenses by shooting in the sun. None of them really like it :). Nevertheless some handle it better than others. The 21 Voigt. is not really good at this game. What makes it worst is that the hood given with the lens is inadequate. You can get pretty heavy flare just by pointing your lens close to a powerfull light source. The square hood seems to be a good solution.

-- Xavier Colmant (xcolmant@poweir.com), October 31, 2001.

My point was that with superwides, either they have good flare resistance or they don't, and I have not found that a hood will have much or any affect. A hood may lower the flare on one shot in twenety where the bright light source happens to be exactly at an angle just right off film so the hood will shade the front element. On longer focal length's, hoods become more useful because they can be deep enough to really shade the elements from direct sun over a good angle of coverage. I never bother with hoods on anything wider than 28mm.

-- Andrew Schank (aschank@flash.net), October 31, 2001.

The original hood for the Voigtlander 21mm is much like a Series 5 adapter ring. It really doesn't block anything. The new design is a real shade and it will help in certian situations where the original "shade" won't.

I allways use a lens shade. Sometimes they help, sometimes they don't. But when they do, the picture is allways better IMHO.

-- Tony Oresteen (aoresteen@lsqgroup.com), October 31, 2001.

I have to say I tend to agree with Andrew on this one. The shade on my Super-Angulon R is a pain and I have never noticed it do anything, except be a pain to put on and off - mind you, this lens does have good flare resistance (that is one of its advantages). Still, including the sun in a any shot is just asking for trouble, at least with a reflex you can see flare (look carefully into the sun!) and avoid the worst. This is not really an option with an r/f camera.

-- Robin Smith (smith_robin@hotmail.com), October 31, 2001.

Many thanks to you all for your inputs. The thought of swapping my 21mm Leica crossed my mind when I came across one of the threds posted earlier about the quality of the Voigt + Tom Abbramson's positive comment on the lens posted on camaraquest. Coupled with my lust for a Noctilux, the cash that could be from this swap makes the idea quite compelling. (I already have 50mm 'cron.)

I think I'm going to put the swap on hold for the time being. Many thanks to y'all. Yuth

-- Yuthapol L. (nuchyut@asianet.co.th), October 31, 2001.

I would have to agree that flare is the weak point for this lens. But I have shot pretty extensively with wide angles in the 20mm range and they all flare. It's just the nature of the beast. (I have not used the Leica).

The new shade may not improve things much when the sun is directly in the shot, but it will definitely help with a strong light source on the "fringe" of a shot, or with glare.

My report on this lens is here.

-- Jim Tardio (jimtardio@earthlink.net), October 31, 2001.

flare

I have the Elmarit-M 24/2.8. I can hardly get it to flare at all! Wonderful lens. If the 21 is anywhere near the same kind of performance, it's to die for.

That said, I'm interested in the VC 21/4 for its handiness and price. Under $400 for a 21mm lens which is so small and has such good performance is a remarkable achievement. I'd put up with having to be scrupulous about flarey situations for that.

BTW, I shot with a Nikkor 20mm f/3.5 AI-S (52mm thread) for many years. Always with the correct lenshood, never with a filter. There was never much flare that I could get bothered by it. It was a sharp and contrasty lens. The later f/2.8 version improves on resolution in the corners/edges with the floating rear element, but for the size/price, my old 20 was remarkably good.

The VC Heliar 15 ASPH blows it out of the water on performance, however.

-- Godfrey (ramarren@bayarea.net), October 31, 2001.

Yuth, like others have said, keep both lenses. I have both lenses and I'm keeping both. The optical performance of the Elmarit 21/2.8 Asph is without question, but the Color-Skopar 21/4 is more portable and performs almost just as well--I can't tell the difference between slides taken with one lens and the other. I also have the Voigtlander 24/4 lens, but the optical performance, although not bad, is not nearly as good as the 21mm, and I'm selling off this lens.

-- Hoyin Lee (leehoyin@hutchcity.com), October 31, 2001.

I meant the Voigtlander 25/4 lens, not 24/4!

-- Hoyin Lee (leehoyin@hutchcity.com), October 31, 2001.

The latest issue of the Leica Historical Society magazine "Viewfinder" has an article by TomA and one other(?) comparing all of the Leica 21's with the Voightlander and the Ricoh. Lots of pros and cons depending on wht kind of photography you do. I don't have a copy of the article, but maybe someone else here does.

-- jay goldman (goldman@math.umn.edu), October 31, 2001.

By the way, if you ARE including the sun in a photo taken with your M camera, compose and shoot quickly otherwise you'll end up with a burnt spot on the shutter.

-- Andrew Schank (aschank@flash.net), October 31, 2001.