What would happen if Leica made a pure Titanium camera body?greenspun.com : LUSENET : Leica Photography : One Thread |
I was sitting at work and dreaming about the most durable Leica R body possible. And remembering that my glasses are pure titanium and lasted for a heck of a long time, I thought that Leica, barring expense, could actually create some pure titanium Leica R bodies which would be wonderful. Of course minus the mirror and few other components. It definitely was a strange dream.In real life, I doubt that Leica could afford to produce a purely titanium camera body. It would be rather durable but too expensive to justify the cost. Based on estimation, production cost for a titanium Leica R6.2 on weight alone would cost like 5000-6000 bucks to create what could be the most durable tank in the world.
I just wonder whether Leica R6.2 shutters are made of titanium just like my Nikon F :)???? Anyone? :)
Alfie
-- Albert Wang (albert.wang@ibx.com), October 26, 2001
The shutter in the R6.2 is aluminium alloy. The main reason Nikon went with the titanium foil shutters back in the 60s was a hang-over from from their rangefinder days when they wanted to use a material which the sun couldn't burn a pin-hole into.As to Titanium alloy plates on the camera. Why wait for Leica? Get a camera technician to remove the top and bottom plates from your R or M, take these plates to an engineering firm with CNC machinery and then get them to machine copies of the plates from titanium alloys.
Seriously! I've been thinking of having this done for my M6. If you want to know exactly what alloy should be used, why not drop Tom Abrahamsson a note via his www site at rapidwinder.com. He uses a Titanium alloy outer shell on his rapidwinders and has these precision CNC machined to fit the bottoms of M cameras.
-- Andrew Nemeth (azn@nemeng.com), October 26, 2001.
Andrew, not that I necessarily disblieve it, but if that's so why doesn't Tom advertise the titanium aspect of the rapidwinder? I have two on my bodies which I never take off, so I'm a fan, but surely he'd advertise the use of titanium. I would have thought ergal would be sufficient.
-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), October 26, 2001.
I think a pure titanium bodyshell would be a great idea for an R body. That way there'd be less chance to get it scratched up shuffling around the shelves at Leica's repair department.
-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), October 26, 2001.
I think you'll find that Tom uses brass in his rapidwinder body... I remeber reading somewhere that he apparently experimented with titanium a few years back, but the cost was too high.
-- Jack Flesher (jbflesher@msn.com), October 26, 2001.
How about a carbon fiber camera shell? They use the stuff to build missle silos and racing car parts. A friend of mine had some valve covers and airboxes made for his old Lotus cars out of carbon fiber, and it makes Titanium feel like lead. It was very rigid as well. I'm sure there is some engineering reason no one has done it yet, but wouldn't it be cool to have a carbon fiber M6?
-- Andrew Schank (aschank@flash.net), October 26, 2001.
I think carbon fiber will be too light and the M6 will miss its balance when a lens like 90mm APO/70mm is mounted on it. Titanium is just right and I will love to have one when this is available.
-- tom tong (tom.tong@ckh.com.hk), October 26, 2001.
The main reason Nikon went with the titanium foil shutters back in the 60s was a hang-over from from their rangefinder days when they wanted to use a material which the sun couldn't burn a pin-hole into.Nonsense. Nikon rangefinder cameras all had cloth shutters until the F came out, then the last series shared the F's titanium shutter curtains.
Contax G1/G2/Tix/T3 camera have real Ti skins, as do several Nikon models. It's too expensive to build the chassis out of. Ti is a difficult to work metal and costs a bundle when trying to manufacture components in volume. I don't know that there would be a substantial benefit to Leica for an which cost them 60% more to manufacture...
-- Godfrey (ramarren@bayarea.net), October 26, 2001.
I own a F with cloth shutter, is it uncommon?; because it still works so well. Lately I´ve found my M3 too heavy with the new 50/2, but still nice balanced whit the 90/2 on, can´t imagine a body ligther than M4P, but I´m sure we would get adicted to it pretty soon.
-- r watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), October 26, 2001.
I think you'll find that Tom uses brass in his rapidwinder body< P> See p.104 of Jonathan Eastland's "Leica M Compendium" ISBN 1-897802-05- 6. I'll quote the relevant sentance:"To cater for it in a more professional manner, the designer set about having the cases machined from solid blocks of titanium/ alumninium alloy on a CNC machine..."
This book however was published in 1994, so I've just sent a email to Tuulikki Abrahamsson (Tom's wife and business partner) to confirm this. Will post her reply tomorrow.
-- Andrew Nemeth (azn@nemeng.com), October 26, 2001.
Nonsense. Nikon rangefinder cameras all had cloth shutters until the F came out, then the last series shared the F's titanium shutter curtainsWRT to the various shutter designs used by Nikon for their S and F series cameras, please see the following URL:
http://www.nikon.co.jp/main/eng/society/rhnc/rhnc10shut-e.htm
You will see there that it clearly mentions that the titanium foil shutter was developed in order to avoid sun-burnt pin holes in the shutter curtain.
-- Andrew Nemeth (azn@nemeng.com), October 26, 2001.
Carbon fiber would have to retain steel (or similiar material) inserts for friction encounters, i.e. shutter dial, rewind ass'y, top cover screws, etc, and would offer wonderful impact charicteristics much like titanium, however, offers little benefit over the Ti.Ti is very, very hard to work with, but offers some wonderful benefits:
Resilience: Titanium deflects from impact in an otherworldly way- and retains it's original shape. This would, of course, mean that it's not incredibly stiff.
Strength is equal to higher quality steel inch for inch, but weighs approx. 50% less, giving it a strengh-to weight ratio double of that of steel, so if the application permits, less material is needed.
However, working with the material is very costly, and the material likes to fuse with itself, so you can't thread Ti with Ti, and anything else threaded into a Ti structure has to have anti-sieze compound.
I suppose someone could fabricate an all-Ti M6, but i think the covers are sufficient enough. I would be very surprized if an all-Ti M6 were to be as reliable as the plain-jane. I just hate to think of forgotton (and needed) anti-sieze on something. And as for a part replacement on any component? Forget it. Why not just treat yourself to a new car or something else equally frivolous.
I was told that the F3T's were built on a Ti substructure, but I highly doubt it- I'm quite sure it's limited to the covers and back. A Ti substructure in 1982 would have cost a pretty penny, and Nikon would have lost a ton of cash putting it to market, due to manufacturing costs. There's a few out there!
I'm sure Leica's Ti models are similiarly constructed.
-- Mike DeVoue (karma77@att.net), October 27, 2001.
You will see there that it clearly mentions that the titanium foil shutter was developed in order to avoid sun-burnt pin holes in the shutter curtain. The quote below from the page you refer to:
---
At first, like the Nikon SP, the Nikon F employed cloth shutter curtains.
Titanium (Ti) curtains were being developed by Nippon Kogaku, and were completed following the announcement introducing the Nikon F. With titanium shutter curtains, there's no danger of the sun burning a hole in the curtain even if the camera is accidentally pointed directly at the sun.
The shutter of the SP, which incorporated the same mechanism employed in the Nikon F, was later modified to accommodate titanium curtains.
It does not say that this is WHY the Ti curtains were produced, it simply says that this is a property they have. It also says the SP was fitted with the Ti curtains afterwards. My comment was in response to the intimation that the Ti curtains were built for the rangefinders ... they weren't they were built for the F SLRs, to improve reliability and durability. Regarding the RapidWinder: I have one which I use with my M6TTL. No way this device is Ti. It's *way* too heavy to be Ti.. Anodized billet aluminum, I think, but I could be wrong there. I don't think it's brass, however. I was told that the F3T's were built on a Ti substructure, but I highly doubt it- I'm quite sure it's limited to the covers and back. All F3s have a magnesium or aluminum chassis (can't remember which, but it's one of the two). The F3/T has Ti covers and back.
-- Godfrey (ramarren@bayarea.net), October 27, 2001.
You will see there that it clearly mentions that the titanium foil shutter was developed in order to avoid sun-burnt pin holes in the shutter curtain. The quote below from the page you refer to:
---
At first, like the Nikon SP, the Nikon F employed cloth shutter curtains.
Titanium (Ti) curtains were being developed by Nippon Kogaku, and were completed following the announcement introducing the Nikon F. With titanium shutter curtains, there's no danger of the sun burning a hole in the curtain even if the camera is accidentally pointed directly at the sun.
The shutter of the SP, which incorporated the same mechanism employed in the Nikon F, was later modified to accommodate titanium curtains.
---
It does not say that this is WHY the Ti curtains were produced, it simply says that this is a property they have. It also says the SP was fitted with the Ti curtains afterwards. My comment was in response to the intimation that the Ti curtains were built for the rangefinders ... they weren't they were built for the F SLRs, to improve reliability and durability.
Regarding the RapidWinder: I have one which I use with my M6TTL. No way this device is Ti. It's *way* too heavy to be Ti.. Anodized billet aluminum, I think, but I could be wrong there. I don't think it's brass, however.
I was told that the F3T's were built on a Ti substructure, but I highly doubt it- I'm quite sure it's limited to the covers and back.
All F3s have a magnesium or aluminum chassis (can't remember which, but it's one of the two). The F3/T has Ti covers and back.
-- Godfrey (ramarren@bayarea.net), October 27, 2001.
But the question comes to mind, does black paint stick to titanium? And could you cover such a camera body with emu skin and commemorate King Simeon of Bulgaria's 59th birthday?Seriously, I wish my M6 TTL was made of titanium, after denting both body and bottom plate :-(
-- Mani Sitaraman (bindumani@pacific.net.sg), October 27, 2001.
Alfie et al.1) Titanium is needed only where other materials will not perform, such as F1 racing engine connecting rods that MUST be as light as possible to withstand the reciprocating nature of the movements with minimum inertia. The same goes for valves for the engines.
Jet fighters -F18- use Ti structural members, part of the reason they cost $100 million a pop. Casting Ti is visciously expensive as it is a VERY combustible metal until a micro-thin coating of oxide is built up. Freshly ground Ti in a nitrogen blanket would ignite spontaneously if the Nitrogn blanket were blown away.
It must be cast in a vacuum furnace and machined under an inert gas or liquid blanket. Dust from Ti machining is highly explosive and preventing explosions adds to the cost of machining.
Any engineer who uses Ti where another metal or alloy will do is off base.
2)Following on from above, the reason shutter assemblies are made of Ti is to maintain the strength needed to allow 1/8000 sec shutters. The aceleration and deceleration called for to move through a 24mm distance twice in less than 1/10 000 of a sec. is phenomenal: equivalent to many many Gs of acceleration. Ordinary steel or Aluminum sheets would lose shape and jam, or if they were strong enough, would be too heavy and just not move fast enough.
Ti is used extensively for artificial joints such as knees and hips as the inertness is critical in body fluids. A CNC machine needed to machine Ti costs over $1 million, so the cost per unit must be VERY high to pay for this on low volume runs. We already compain about the cost of Leicas vs real performance.
3) Ti does have certain corrosion resistant properties but these do not apply in ordinary atmospheres: highly oxidising gases such as Chlorine Dioxide call for Ti.
4)Using the word "Titanium" in marketing is magic. It makes people think they are sharing needed technology with spacecraft or trendy F1 Ferrari or Mercedes Benz engines.
The best way to scratch-proof a Leica is to provide an adhesive plastic sheet on the top, such as the one on the bottom of a new Leica. It could be applied before a trip or threatening shooting session, then peeled off.
The answer to your question is that it would cost tens of thousands of dollars and would be no better than a run of the mill current M6. It would, however, be a real status symbol for the "more money than brains" gang.
Cheers
-- RICHARD ILOMAKI (richardjx@hotmail.com), October 27, 2001.
But the question comes to mind, does black paint stick to titanium? And could you cover such a camera body with emu skin and commemorate King Simeon of Bulgaria's 59th birthday?Can't answer for the emu skin, but my Contax Tix has a beautiful black laquer finish on its titanium skin and the Nikon F3/T I had also had a wonderful black painted finish.
-- Godfrey (ramarren@bayarea.net), October 27, 2001.
Titanium does not have to be excessively pricey. My palms are resting on it on my powerbook G4 right now. Sure its not cheap notebook but then it costs at most $200 more than its predecessor at the end which had a slower processor. However it might requite a new manufacturing process which might be too expensive unless Leica subcontracted. Silas
-- Silas Larsen (slarsen@mail.colgate.edu), October 28, 2001.
Many years ago as a teenager in the Air Force, I worked on the F- 105. It had Titanium panels lining the speedbrakes, which formed part of the jet tailpipe. Since the tailpipe had to withstand the high temperatures, there was a reason to use titanium. A rep from Republic Aircraft told me it took 18 drill bits to drill each and every one of the holes in those panels. It's an extremely hard material to fabricate parts from.Maybe you can get a camera with an all-ti body like like Godfrey's Nikon. You can also get a kitchen knife with a sterling silver handle. But there is a cost vs. benefit issue to be considered. With reasonable care, doesn't a Leica hold up well enough already?
-- Bob Fleischman (RFXMAIL@prodigy.net), October 28, 2001.
Tooling technology has advanced some since you were a teenager Bob (:- It is no longer that difficult to machine Titanium. I am a machinist by trade and have made myself some camera accesories out of leftover bits and pieces of Titanium from jobs. I agree that using it for a camera body is certainly overkill. The only reason I use it is because it impresses the hell out of people when you tell them your flash bracket is made of titanium. There may be a case for using it to make lens barrels as I believe it has a similar expansion coeficient as glass.
-- Steve Belden (otterpond@tds.net), October 28, 2001.
Rapidwinder shell composition - brass or alloy or what?I just heard back from Tom Abrahamsson (who is still in isolation after his stem cell transplant last Monday).
The Rapidwinder outer shell is made from aerospace grade aluminium alloy, which then has titanium plated on using an electrodeless nickel plating process.
Only the earliest versions of the RW shell were made of brass, but he abandoned this as they had to be made in two separate parts and then soldered together.
-- Andrew Nemeth (azn@nemeng.com), October 28, 2001.
Now really... aside from the manufacturing problems, how could we get that 'used' finish on a titanium M?As for titanium in the R system, IMHO the 180 'cron with USM and IS in Canon mount has priority. And the possibility to mount the Nikon D1X behind that lens.
-- Oliver Schrinner (piraya@hispavista.com), October 29, 2001.