Hi ! I want to get grainy pictures without big enlargements 10/15 cm. and using the whole negative. I´ve tried Tmax 3200 35mm in rodinal 1/50 20° C 16 min. This method was recommended to me but I didn`t find the grain large enough. Is there any way to get large grain on small prints?

-- Thomas Bergh (thomasbergh@hotmail.com), October 26, 2001

Answers

The combination I commonly used for this purpose was Fomapan T800 (which was also sold as Paterson Acupan 800) in R09 1:20. Unfurtonately the T800 is no longer made. Try TRIX in Rodinal 1:10 or R09 1:20, this should give the effect you are looking for, or -- even better -- Forte 400 or Foma 400. The results are tack sharp but VERY grainy.

-- Volker Schier (Volker.Schier@fen-net.de), October 26, 2001.

The small prints caveat is the problem. Your best bet might be to try printing only a small portion of your 35mm negative. You could also use a Minox sub-miniature or half-frame 35mm camera. Or you could try pushing Tri-X in Dektol, but in a small print I fear you would still have finer grain than you are seeking. Finally, you could try to reticulate your film by putting it in a very hot water bath to see if the emulsion would start to crinkle.

-- Ed Buffaloe (edb@unblinkingeye.com), October 26, 2001.

I just checked. Moersch Photochemie offers an interesting additive for paper developers, which will produce very grainy looking prints from "normal" negatives. They call it Lith E Check their website for it and the availability. http://www.moersch-photochemie.de/html_deutsch/online_workshop/online_ workshop_l3.htm I have not tried the product, but it sounds interesting. There are some dealers in Germany who will ship Moersch products worldwide, one is Fotoimpex in Berlin.

-- Volker Schier (Volker.Schier@fen-net.de), October 26, 2001.

Reticulation unfortunately is no option with most films today. The emulsion is hardened to an extent where it just does not work.

-- Volker Schier (Volker.Schier@fen-net.de), October 26, 2001.

TriX at 320 in Rodinal 1:25 for 8 minutes.

Grain the size of golf balls.

-- David Parmet (david@parmet.net), October 26, 2001.

If David's advice doesn't suffice, then process the Tri-X normally and then wash in 125 F water. Actually you switch to the high temp water at any time after the developer.

-- Michael Feldman (mfeldman@qwest.net), October 26, 2001.

Put your Tri-X into an oven and heat for 24 hours at 150 degrees F. Cool prior to handling it. Develop normally in D-76 or Rodinal. The older the film the better it works.

-- Bill Mitchell (bmitch@home.com), October 26, 2001.

any older emulsion film in dektol will give you the large grain you are seeking. I process at 75 degrees F and get enormous grain.

-- james (james_mickelson@hotmail.com), October 27, 2001.

I think paper grain is indispensible if you want grainy picture. Use lith developer. I wish I can find a formula for a lith developer (or that developer mentioned earlier)!

-- Xosni (xosni@gega.net), October 27, 2001.

"Lith" development of high silver fiber papers is getting very popular in Europe. Both Moersch and Calbe make such developers. The mentionned large grain additive seems to be specially designed for "lith" development.

-- Volker Schier (Volker.Schier@fen-net.de), October 27, 2001.

I think Kodak has discontinued it's "Recording Film" but if you can find some of that stuff... boy you will have grain!

-- Scott Walton (scotlynn@shore.net), October 27, 2001.

No Volker, I'm not talking about 'lith developing' where you use highly diluted lith developer to develop an over exposed print for prologed periods, I'm talking about using the same concentration for film to develop a print; this is not lith developing.

-- Xosni (xosni@gega.net), October 27, 2001.

You should be able to get Tri-X to reticulate. I have only done this by mistake, so I cannot describe the exact method. Try developing at normal temperatures, then alternate a hot stop bath, normal temp fix and a hot intitial rinse. You will have to figure out how hot too hot is.

-Paul

-- Paul (PAUL_GIBLIN@YAHOO.COM), October 27, 2001.

As for reticulation :

I have tried to do it on purpose with Tmax, it is impossible. I boiled the film (water at almost boiling point) and direclty transferred it in ice cold water, and the other way round too, but nothing happened. There might be a possibility that it will work with another film, though. I would try it with Tri-X and Fomapan or Fortepan.

As for the development: There are certainly many ways to augment the size of your film's grain by development but I don't think that you will ever reach a point such as you describe (large grain at 10x15 cm enlargment)... Maybe with old films like Kodak Recording, but not with modern ones. I would suggest a grain effect mask (you can still find some on the market) that you sandwich with your negs when printing them. Lith printing sometimes gives a grain effect (not always, though) but it looks different than what I think you expect having as a result. It also gives strange tonalities that you might not want.

There is a much more controllable and easy way to get the effect you want: scan your pictures, open Photoshop, go to Filter-Texture-Grain and there you can create any kind of grain you want, controlling the size, shape and contrast of your grain. I understand it is not really a photographic and romantic way of getting what you haze asked for, but it is surely the most effective one... You will just need a lab with a digital photographic printer to get the final pictures on photo paper. There are (at least in my country) labs that use B&W paper in the Durst Lambda printer and so you will even get a real B&W print, not a monochrome print on colour paper.

-- George Papantoniou (papanton@hol.gr), October 28, 2001.

My answer is TMZ, rated at 25,000 and process in TMax for around 34 minutes.

-- Ed Farmer (photography2k@hotmail.com), October 28, 2001.

Try TMZ exposed at e.i. 1600 in Dektol 1:1 @ 70 degrees for 5 minutes for HUGE grain.

-- Steve Wiley (wiley@accesshub.net), October 28, 2001.

Ed, if that isn't a facetious comment about PMZ at 25000 and 34 mins in dektol, what are the shadows like?

-- james (james_mickelson@hotmail.com), October 29, 2001.

No, that's real. The shadows are inky black, but the prints take sepia toning perfectly.

-- Ed Farmer (photography2k@hotmail.com), October 30, 2001.