Just remember, "You only go around the Horn once", and "Life's too short to be playing around with junky camera gear." Buy new! Buy Leica! and buy the best! Regards, Don Wansor

-- Donald A.Wansor (wansor@optonline.net), October 25, 2001

Answers

Hi, Donald:

Just remember: "Life's too short to be paying for new camera gear instead of free making photos around."

Buy used but good! Buy Leica! and buy the best: M3.

Regards

-Iván

-- Iván Barrientos M (ingenieria@simltda.tie.cl), October 25, 2001.

What gives Don? Are you a dealer? If so, maybe you should both sell both used and new? You know the margins are quite high on used gear.

Junky camera gear? Surely you jest. Ever handled a used M3?

-- Mani Sitaraman (bindumani@pacific.net.sg), October 25, 2001.

No way-Used is even better than new because it has a story.

-- Tristan Tom (tristan@tristantom.com), October 25, 2001.

What's wrong with creating your own story? Just curious...

-- ken kwok (kkwok@gostanford.com), October 25, 2001.

From what I've heard about the current level of quality control, one may actually be better off buying a used Leica.That is what I intend to do. John

-- John Myers (mymacv@aol.com), October 26, 2001.

The $$$ choice: one good old camera and two good old lenses vs one good new body, with no lenses. I wonder which would get more use? :-)

-- Michael Darnton (mdarnton@hotmail.com), October 26, 2001.

I agree with Don about buying new, but because it keeps Leica in business, which is something I very much appreciate. Save the used stuff with stories for the collectors, let the shooters use the new stuff and create those stories.

Just a thought...

-- Dan Brown (brpatent@swbell.net), October 26, 2001.

Buying new does support the camera company who's products we love so much. And if I didn't fear stangulation at the hands of my beloved spouse, I would rush right out and charge up a new 75 lux, 21 Asph, and a 28 Summicron today.

Regards Steve

-- Steve Belden (otterpond@tds.net), October 26, 2001.

Here's how to buy new Leica stuff. Don't smoke, stay out of bars, keep away from racetracks and betting parlors, and don't buy lottery tickets. You'll soon have enough money to buy all the Leica gear that you want. Regards, Don

-- Donald A.Wansor (wansor@optonline.net), October 26, 2001.

>>> Here's how to buy new Leica stuff. Don't smoke, stay out of bars, keep away from racetracks and betting parlors, and don't buy lottery tickets. You'll soon have enough money to buy all the Leica gear that you want. Regards, Don <<<

You forgot one: don't have kids. That's why I buy used. I'm glad there are people who do buy all the Leica gear they want because they're the best source of good used equipment.

-- Douglas Herr (telyt@earthlink.net), October 26, 2001.

Firstly Don, racetracks, bars and places where people smoke have been where some of the best documentary photographs in history have been made. Also if you seriously think that, for example someone just starting out in photography, or someone who has a family (or do you propose we also don't buy food and clothing for our children) may not have the money for new. I have no clue what your financial situation is, but please don't presume to know what the financial situation is of the other people on the forum. If you have so much readily disposable income, I would be happy to let you replace all my used gear with new.........

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), October 26, 2001.

I will never buy a used Leica or Hassy body again. Too many of them have been trashed and are just waiting to malfunction. And a CLA is not going to fix that--unless they replace all the parts, which, obviously, they aren't going to do.

I recently dropped an old user M3 and had the choice of replacing it with either an M3 in 8+ condition or an M6. I chose the latter and am very glad I did. All the parts are new and I know where it's been and what it's been through.

I've got a Hassy 500C/M from the 70's that is an endless source of troubles: I've been through four magazines trying to find one that doesn't overlap frames or drop a frame off the end. And every Leica M I've ever bought used has had problems with it: pinholes in the shutter, winding problems, random jamming, loose parts in the lens, etc.

I would not hesitate to buy a Nikon F from 1965--as long as it checked out fine in the store and all the foam had been replaced--take that camera with me to the ends of the earth, stake my reputation on it, take a once-in-a-lifetime picture with it, etc. But every time I process a roll of film taken with a European camera I hold my breath as I take it out of the developing tank, hoping that everything worked as it was supposed to.

Frankly, if it wasn’t for European lenses, European cameras would have no right to live.

-- Peter Hughes (ravenart@pacbell.net), October 26, 2001.

Odd, the experiences of different people. I've a 1957 IIIg that I use as my main camera, and apart from a couple of CLA's it's worked flawlessly. Same for a used R3 I picked up a few years back. Yet a new Nikon FE2 I owned a few 10 years ago was nothing but problems. My cameras get faily heavy use (I've spent the last two weeks sorting my negs from the last 10 years - threw out 28000, kept 800), all that the comments in this thread will probably proove is that reliabily is a crap shoot. I've got 40 year old cameras that give me no problems, others will tell of their unhappiness with their new cameras that are full of problems..

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), October 26, 2001.

I did'nt mean to imply that one should deprive his family of their needs in order to purchase new Leica gear. I just suggested that one take cash spent friviously, and buy new leica stuff instead. Buying NEW photo gear is like buying a new car. One gets a warrantee, and is not buying someone else's troubles. Best wishes, Don

-- Donald A. Wansor (wansor@opltonline.net), October 26, 2001.

Don - I hate to belabor the point put you have brought up a perfect argument for buying used. Again - I don't know your financial situation, nor you mine. A few years ago I needed a vehicle. What I could afford new was a Dodge Neon or some such car for under $15,000 dollars (Canadian). Instead I bought a 5 year old Volvo for about the same cash (new would have been $35,000 - again I actually like to feed my family). I can pretty much guarantee that the Volvo will far outlast a Dodge Neon or some such entry level vehicle (this is my second Volve, I got rid of the first one when it had 340000 miles to some one who still uses it). Sorry if I don't buy into the rampant consumerism and 'keep up with Jones's' that is so popular today..

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), October 26, 2001.

One other point... IMO, the "used" market is what is keeping Leica alive right now.

Sounds like backwards logic, I know. But consider all of the Leica shooters that got into Leica in the first place because of USED Leica. I did. Every other Leica shooter I know did too. Many of us got here because it was grampa's old USED IIIc or dad's old USED M3 and a USED lens or two that were passed down to us. I got here because a USED Leica and a lens was "cheap enough to warrant a try"... (I'm sure there are a few of you who got there starting out with new, but I don't know you.) Now that we're hooked on Leica, many of us do make a "NEW" purchase, helping to keep Leica in business.

I am confident that were it not for the used Leica market introducing me to the system, my interest in Leica (and this forum) would be zippo-nada...

-- Jack Flesher (jbflesher@msn.com), October 26, 2001.

Jack has an excellent point. It is how I got into Leica -- mind you I still have only ever bought a new Leica once.

Peter's comments are somewhat strange, and completely against my experience of Leicas. I see plenty of lousy working Nikon Fs and so on around, but as they are not collected to nearly the same degree, and are worth much less, people just get rid of them, hence depleting the available stock of bad Nikons. Leicas being worth so much get recycled even when they should be rebuilt. At least you can get them fully brought up to spec, and as many people agree, the M3 for example is still a very desirable camera today with no real equivalent (although 0.85 is close) in the current line of r/f cameras anywhere.

-- Robin Smith (smith_robin@hotmail.com), October 26, 2001.

Count me among the "cheap bastard" contingent. For the cost of new M6, I got a just-overhauled M3 with a 50 DR-Summicron and enough money left over for another overhaul or two when it becomes necessary. I simply couldn't have afforded the current 2-body, 4-lens Leica kit I've put together if I'd bought new, and since I do use the equipment professionally, having the extras is essential.

I'm with Bob on the used car deal, as well. My 18-year-old Mercedes may be slow and require a lot of maintenance and repairs, but it's still significantly cheaper to own than even the cheapest little micro-compact. And it looks a hell of a lot better in photos . . . : )

-- Mike Dixon (mike@mikedixonphotography.com), October 26, 2001.

Wow Mike... there is a car in your photo. Thanks for pointing it out.

-- Al Smith (smith58@msn.com), October 26, 2001.

Sigh, I'd love to get a peak at Mike's little black book.

-- Bob (robljones@home.com), October 26, 2001.

Don-

Smokin', drinkin' and gamblin' ain't necessarily "frivolous". Are you a new-age Leica evangelist? "Spend your money on new Leica gear and go to heaven?" You work for Leica? Maybe you're just a rich bastard.

Don't really matter:]

-- jeff voohrees (debontekou@yahoo.com), October 26, 2001.

Jeff - you've summed up my thoughts perfectly. I just didn't know how to phrase it as politely as you have ;-)

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), October 26, 2001.

Sure, buy good-condition used Leica equipment. It's smart to save hundreds if you're confident the piece is in good shape. But, and a big but, make sure you check prices on new gray market equipment first. Sometimes gray market prices are very close to used prices. I'd personally rather have a new lens without warranty if it's only $100 more than the same or much older used lens.

-- Ken Geter (kgeter@yahoo.com), October 26, 2001.

Many years ago, I had a friend who smoked 3 packs of cigarettes a day, spent at least $20 in the bar every night, and went through $70 worth of weed a week. And he once complained to me that he didn't have enough money to buy a camera.

I reiterate my complaint about Eurpoean vs. Japanese reliability. I cannot tell you how many Nikons, Canons and Pentax MF cameras I've had over the years, and not one ever had to go into the shop. Not one. OTOH, I've never had a Hassy or old Leica that didn't need service sooner or later, usually sooner. I put up with the lack of reliability because of the beautiful character of the Leitz and Zeiss lenses. The Japanese know nothing of character, though they can certainly make reliable equipment that tests well.

Peter Hughes Photography

-- Peter Hughes (ravenart@pacbell.net), October 26, 2001.

Re: European vs. Japanese camera reliablity.

None of my Leica equipment has required service (one of the bodies is a bit stiff and would benefit from a CLA--everything's fully functional and accurate, though). Of the seven Japanese cameras I've owned or currently own (3 Canon, 2 Minolta, 2 Pentax), every single one has required service or currently needs service/repair. I don't, however, think that the Japanese cameras are unreliable. They've served me (and others) well for many years. Mechanical devices require periodic maintenance. The anecdotal evidence from a few people is not sufficient to support a broad claim that products from one country are less reliable than those from another.

-- Mike Dixon (mike@mikedixonphotography.com), October 26, 2001.

Peter - It does sound as though you've been one unlucky guy with European cameras! But one of the reasons that the Leica has been, and still is so popular with photojournalists is their reliability. I'm quite sure people like Salgado wouldn't go into the situations they do with an unreliable camera. As well, Hassey is still the #1 choice of studio, portrait and wedding photographers for reliability as well as lens reasons. You've had bad luck but statistics do show that Leica/Hassey have a low breakdown rate. Part of the problem is that something you put up with in a $1000.00 Nikon (say a sticking ASA dial - personal experience), one does not except in a $4000.00 Leica.

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), October 27, 2001.

Whoopie! The postman just brought my new American Express Platinum card with a US$5000 limit! Heigh Ho! Heigh Ho! It's off to the Leica store I go!!! Best Wishes, Don

-- Donald A, Wansor (wansor @optonline.net), October 27, 2001.

Some wag (David Vestal?) once wrote a piece titled "32 Ways to Jam a Hassleblad."

-- Bill Mitchell (bmitch@home.com), October 27, 2001.

I don't care about the $$aspect. What I really enjoy, is telling people that the pictures they like so much (taken by me) was taken with a 45 year old manual (M)camera without batteries etc etc.

-- Hans Berkhout (berkhout@cadvision.com), October 27, 2001.

Individual users have very small "samples" and hence statements about the reliability of brand X or brand Y are hard to interpret. The only way to assess relative reliability is with data that, alas, the manufacturers will never, for obvious reasons, release. For what it's worth, I've had Nikons that were DOA out-of-the-box, so when I found a used Leica at a good price, and it seemed to work well, I bought it. In fact, it worked better -- at nine years of age -- than at least one Nikon I had owned. But as my first sentence implies, my experience is meaningless :-)

-- Douglas Kinnear (douglas.kinnear@colostate.edu), October 28, 2001.

Sorry, should have written that the nine year-old Leica worked better than at least one BRAND NEW Nikon I have owned.

-- Douglas Kinnear (douglas.kinnear@colostate.edu), October 28, 2001.

What sent me broke: Slow Horses and Fast Lenses! ;-)

Seriously, the used market is good for both Leica and the dealers. It's all part of the buying chain. Without the used market to sell their old gear, many Leica owners wouldn't be able to afford to upgrade to new gear. Also, most dealers make better profits on used gear than they do on new gear.

-- Ray Moth (ray_moth@yahoo.com), October 29, 2001.

So Don, tell us what you charged up on your new card. That $5000.00 limit must have bought you a couple of lenses.

-- Steve Belden (otterpond@tds.net), October 29, 2001.

It is the excitement of opening that white box and unwraping a brand new lens and/or camera, and taking clean, crisp photos that come alive. The results are even more enjoyable when one is reviewing his photos over a nice glass of a Russian River Pinot Noir......

WAIT IF YOU HAVE TO, SELL THOSE EXTRA LENSES YOU DON'T USE ANYMORE ON EBAY, DON'T BET THE FOOTBALL GAMES, AN IN TIME YOU TOO CAN BUY NEW AND FEEL THE EXCITEMENT.....AFTER ALL WE ARE ALL LITTLE BOYS AND GIRLS WHO LOVE our TOYS.........

Alex

-- Alex Tamborrino (tambo6@aol.com), November 02, 2001.

To answer the question,,,, It is the excitement of opening that white box and unwraping a brand new lens and/or camera, and taking clean, crisp photos that come alive. The results are even more enjoyable when one is reviewing his photos over a nice glass of a Russian River Pinot Noir......

WAIT IF YOU HAVE TO, SELL THOSE EXTRA LENSES YOU DON'T USE ANYMORE ON EBAY, DON'T BET THE FOOTBALL GAMES, AN IN TIME YOU TOO CAN BUY NEW AND FEEL THE EXCITEMENT.....AFTER ALL WE ARE ALL LITTLE BOYS AND GIRLS WHO LOVE our TOYS.........

Alex

-- Alex Tamborrino (tambo6@aol.com), November 02, 2001.