These two along with Italy were the best equipped fighting units in the world in 1939. And we beat them along with the help of our allies. You look at the pictures of who we are fighting now. A bunch of dirty old men with filthy beards wearing a bunch of Goddam bed sheets. They look like they come out of the 17 Century for Christ sakes! With our modern technology and 21 century armament, we should be able put them into the Stone Age by Thursday. Tell me this will be the case?

-- Boswell (fundown@thefarm.net), October 23, 2001

Answers

WWII was the last war America *won* (giggle), and wouldn't have if it wasn't for the commonwealth soldiers doing all the hard fighting...

America is in for a real ass kicking this time... hoepfully something will be learned but I doubt it, hard to teach a bunch of dumbed down lard asses who think the world owes them a living..

-- Will (righthere@home.now), October 23, 2001.

"Will", what country do you live in? Do they know they harbor such an asshole? Don't be surprised when you get the 2:00AM visit from the local Gestapo.

-- (American@buffed.ass), October 23, 2001.

Gestapo!!??? Bwahaha LOLLOLOL __YOU__ are the one who will have to worry about the Gestapo!! Homeland security indeed!! was that a swastika that you poked you eye with?? HAHA talk about funny!!

Good to hear your ass is nicely buffed up, much easier for the gestapo to find!!

-- Will (righthere@home.now), October 23, 2001.

Will

You're sounding a lot like you did during Y2K.......and it still doesn't make any sense.

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), October 23, 2001.

Deano you've got the wrong Will, I rarely posted during y2k and mostly agreed with Flint,

America has had 103 foreign actions since the civil war, which is expressly forbidden by the constitution. Hard to respect a society that is so easily manipulated, but it's OK,,, just buy another SUV to go with your McLife and all will be wonderful..

-- Will (righthere@home.now), October 23, 2001.

Boswell,

It was America's manufacturing capacity that beat the Axis. The Tiger was the finest tank of WWII, it's 88mm gun easily punched holes in our main battle tank, the Shermin, while the Shermin's main gun usually just bounced shells off of the Tiger's armor. But we built about sixteen gazillion Shermins while the Nazis could only manage to build Tigers in the thousands. We crushed them by strength of numbers.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeeD@yahoo.com), October 23, 2001.

No doubt about American military production, vast,, in a word. It doesn't really help much these days though does it? Imperialism always comes to a rotten end. USA will be no different, barring a amjor shift in understanding, Britain let it's empire slip with a few saving graces...

-- Will (righthere@home.now), October 23, 2001.

Sorry about that Will......my mistake.

As you were!

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), October 23, 2001.

Uncle Deedah, took two days to respond to your WW11 trivia which was very interesting! In the Pacific, Wildcats and P-40 Warhawks were inferior to Zeros, then the Hellcat came along and than it was a match. The Japanese had the most planes, but it didn't matter when the Corsair and P-38 came on line cause they kicked ass. In the German campaign, more pilots were killed trying to land a Messershmit 109 then got shot down. P-51s, P-47 Thunderbolts, 38-Lightnings were all superior fighting platforms until the Folk-Wolfe 190 came along then they had a fight. So the hardware was a see-saw battle with them having more airpower, but ours was better in the end and that's what counts.

-- Boswell (fundown@thefarm.net), October 25, 2001.

Cool, real discussion.

Saying that the Wildcat and Warhawk were inferior to the Zero is somewhat misleading. Yes, the Zero was much more nimble than either of these planes in a dogfight, and had better performance, but the Zero was also light and not very well armored, the fuel tanks were especially vulnerable.

The tactic used against Zeros by American pilots early in the Pacific Theater was to attack from above the Zero, flying down and firing as they made a pass and then diving away from the Zeros, using the heavy, rugged construction of the American aircraft to outrun and get away. They knew if they tried to fight a conventional dogfight with a Zero the Zero would outperform their aircraft and they would find a Zero on their tail.

Also, if I may, the P-38 came on line well before the Corsair or Hellcat did, and it was in fact the plane that made more American Aces in the Pacific than did any other US plane. America's top Ace of WWII, Richard Bong, flew the P-38. Personally I think it is the most beautiful fighter aircraft ever built, the early experimental version looks decidedly art-deco.

"On my first confrontation with the P-38, I was astonished to find an American aircraft that could outrun, outclimb, and outdive our Zero which we thought was the most superior fighter plane in the world. The Lightning's great speed, it's sensational high altitude performance, and especially it's ability to dive and climb much faster than the Zero presented insuperable problems for our fliers. The P-38 pilots, flying at great height, chose when and where they wanted to fight with disastrous results for our own men. The P-38 boded ill for the future and destroyed the morale of the Zero fighter Pilot."

--Saburo Sakai, Japanese Ace...

I really have lots more to say re the P-51, P-47 vs the Germans, but I gotta get off to work.

Hi-ho, hi-ho...

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeeD@yahoo.com), October 26, 2001.

You were pretty right on about the Zero. They were terrifically agile and quick in a turn. They say the plane torched up real fast with a minimum of hits. IF you like fighters of WW11 and Korea, the San Diego museum is as good in my opinion as the Smithsonian. Also there are two in Oregon that are hard to beat. In the old blimp hanger in Tillamook you can find them all except a Zero. In McMinnville just south of Portland along with Howard Hughes' Spruce Goose you can see the Ford Trimotor wich there're only 3 left. P-40, P-38, P-51, Corsair, Spitfire, Me-109, Wildcat, Hellcat, Mig-15, and F-86 are to be seen also. FW-190, Zero, and Thunderbolt are absent though. Neat stuff if you are in to killin machines like I am.

-- Boswell (fundown@thefarm.net), October 26, 2001.

It's my understanding that only one flyable Zero exsists today. Not sure where it's based, but my guess would be the Confederate Air Force in Texas. They have perhaps the finest collection of restored and flying aircraft in the world. I know they have the world's only flying B-29 and a HE-111 too, which I think is also extremely rare.

If I had to pick a favorite aircraft of all time my vote goes to the B-17. I have flown in one twice in my life, and it ranks right up there as about one of the best memories I have. I think this year I may splurge and go up in the B-24 that is owned by the same outfit, the Collings Foundation. Still trying to save enough $$$ to go up in "Crazy Horse", a P-51D located near Orlando FL and I believe the only P-51D that takes riders up for a *cough* "small" fee.

BTW, Boz, you may want to check out this link for your outrage of the day. The boneheads in Congress are out to f-up anyone who owns or loves these old "Warbirds".

Assholes.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeeD@yahoo.com), October 26, 2001.

Here's a pic of that B-17, a truly awesome flying experience!

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeeD@yahoo.com), October 26, 2001.

unk has a passion, I see

-- (big@smile.), October 26, 2001.

The death of the ball turret gunner, Randall Jarrel

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), October 26, 2001.

Yep, I forgot to tell ya Unc Deedah that they also have a B-17 late model with nose turrent also under the Spruce Goose. I also got to ride in Sentimental Journey 10 years ago in Lewiston. There was a B-24 that flew in with it but I can't remember the name. It might have accompanied 9-o-9 two years later but can't recall.

-- Boswell (fundown@thefarm.net), October 26, 2001.

Yeah, I think it must have been the same B-24, as it is the last of it's breed.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeeD@yahoo.com), October 26, 2001.

Unc Deedah, I have a farmer customer that I spray his crops every year. He is 84 years old and still gets on his 1945 Caterpillar D4. His brother is 89 and farmed with him until a slight stroke last year. Anyway the first brother was a turrent gunner on a A-26 or B-26 Marauder. He's your typical turrent operator about 5'5" and 150, and the stories he tells leaves ya speechless. This was a small attack bomber that flew in low to drop their ordinance and did alot of strafing. He said most 26 crews never worried about chutes being packed correctly because they were always too low to use them. What they had going for them was a hell of a lot of speed and thin profile. He gets teary eyed talking about buddies that didn't come back and says that's why he's still farming. Once he got home he swore he'd never leave the farm again and that was 56 years ago! And that's why I think it's so great the Collins Foundation can travel the country and show off these old warbirds to young people and also to the generation that operated them so many years ago. They stand there with moist eyes with their hand on that polished aluminum and remember. To them it was a noble cause and and these old planes brought them safely back to their families. You know what it's like to walk center stage up to the flight deck of the B-17 and to imagine for an instant what those flight crews went thru on a mission to Schweinfurt and back. The rumble of 4 Wright 1820's on takeoff or a high speed low level pass brings chills to anybody that likes airplanes. Someday they will fly no more and it will be lost.

-- Boswell (fundown@thefarm.net), October 26, 2001.

One of my toys is a Waco UPF-7. Anyone else familiar with it?

-- (Just @wondering.if anyone has the same interests as me), October 26, 2001.

Yeah, I had the very exact same thoughts as I stood there looking out the top turret while flying along...."Jesus, there isn't a damned thing between me and the 109's 20mm shells but a thin-ass layer of aluminum".

I found out about the Collings Foundation from a newpaper article here in the local paper. It was about a fellow who had flown three missions in a B-17 before being shot down and spending the rest of the war in a Stalag as a POW, minus his left leg. He had tears in his eyes as he took his fourth flight in the Flying Fortress, some 50 odd years later. That article came out in the Sunday paper, Monday morning I called my customer and told her I was too sick to work today and that I would be there Tuesday, hung up the phone and went to the airfield and plunked down my cash to take a ride. Worth every single last penny and then some.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeeD@yahoo.com), October 26, 2001.

Just wondering,

Yes, I have flown in one of them too. There is a guy in Key West who gives tours of Key West and the Dry Tortugas in that very plane. Nothing like the wind in your face to let you know you are REALLY flying. Bugs in your teeth, it's a good thing.

Thanks BTW, I knew it was a Waco, but now I know the model # too.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeeD@yahoo.com), October 26, 2001.

And they still make the Waco UPF-7. It's been a on and off again business. You can buy a new Pitts also. My Agcat is a 1975 model made in Elmira, New York and I think they are shut down. It's a shame though because many parts of the NW demand a biplane with a lot of lift and slower speed at 115 to do an acceptable spray job. You can go up a hill and bleed speed down to 80 with half a load and still get to the top but with the single wing Thrushes and Airtractors when you hit 90 you had better be gettin the nose pointed down hill or your going to lose it. And most operators have removed their round engine and replaced it with turbine power. They don't have the instant power that the 1340 PW has so you have to be at least a mile ahead of yourself in throttle management. And nothing will ever replace the sound of a round engine be it on a Waco, Bearcat at Reno, Beech 18, or the harmonic sound of four hangin on a Lockheed Constellation. This conversation gives me shivvers!

-- Boswell (fundown@thefarm.net), October 27, 2001.

Yeah, a radial engine has a sound like no other beast...but, of course, that Merlin in a P-51 sounds awful sweet too!

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeeD@yahoo.com), October 27, 2001.

Uncle Deedah, you need to get tickets for the Reno Air Show in Sept. My wife and I haven't been there since 73 so it's been awhile. You put 1 P-38, 3 Bearcats, 2 Mustangs, 1 Corsair, and throw in a Hawker Sea Fury for effect and you have a show. They come around at 400+ mph at 75 feet sometimes neck and neck and that rumble and roar will get you off of your seat like no 99 yard touchdown run ever would. I have a CD called Round Sounds which I bought in Las Vegas last year which might interest you. It has only radial engines on it from a Ryan with a Kinner, in the cockpit of a Stearman, Beech-18 startup with aerobatics, Corsair doing aerobatics, At-6 Texan race at Reno, followed by the big iron at Reno. Turn the volume up, sit back, close your eyes, and turn back the clock to 1944.

-- Boswell (fundown@thefarm.net), October 27, 2001.