Unthinkable(s)

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Now before anyone jumps all over me, just consider this to be a rhetorical question, and we'll all get along just dandy!!

What if the unthinkable looks like the truth in the 9 11 attacks? What if as evidence continues to accumulate it ends up appearing to be a more severe Reichstag? What would you do? or would you do anything?

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@yahoo.com), October 21, 2001

Answers

What a question! First I would pray my heart out. Secondly, I would secretly start as big of an underground movement as I could muster. Thirdly, I would begin to attack the source. What other choices would a citizen have?

-- lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), October 21, 2001.

On the side of ignorance here, what is Reichstag? What is the "unthinkable" you are thinking? When I know that, then I can better decide what I would do!! In His Grace, Sissy

-- Sissy Sylvester-Barth (iblong2Him@ilovejesus.net), October 21, 2001.

Hitler and his groupies blew up buildings in Germany and then blamed it on the Jews, resulting in a few things: the German people, fearing more violence, willingly gave up many of their civil rights in the name of "homeland protection"..curfews were initiated, everyone had to carry an identification paper, etc. also, it was extremely effective as a tool to turn the average German citizen against the Jewish people. There are some folks who are of the opinion that the WTC and Pentagon diasters COULD have bben caused by our own government in order to give it the permission to invade the countries of the Middle east AND erode the civil rights of Americans in the name of "homeland defense"..THAT is the "unthinkable" thing.

-- lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), October 21, 2001.

Actually, I guess if I thought that my own government was that wicked as to do these horrific things to their own people, I would just try and live each day as if it were my last and ignore the whole thing. It is just too much for my little mind to comprehend. If you look at yourself as just a small peasant as I do, you can find a peace in just letting the power hungry do what they do. Having been in a third world country many times that was completely oppressed by a corrupt government, I have confidence that a little peasant like me can just more or less keep living if they just stay out of the way.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), October 22, 2001.

My thoughts will become clear if you read the following quotes as a single commentary...
_____________________________________________________ __________

"A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious, but it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banners openly. But the traitor moves among thosewithin the gates freely... his sly whispers heard in the very hall of government itself. For the traitor appears to be no traitor, he speaks in the accents familiar to his victims.... and he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unkown in the night...to infect the body politic so that it can no longer resist." ---Marcus Tullius Cicero, 106-43 BC

"Should some future Congress depart from the great business of watching over the affairs of a whole continent, to hunt down an individual--should factions arise among them, and local interests take place of the general interest--should their time be wasted in frivolous and endless disputes, whilst the public service stands still, and its honest servants are tired out with tedious and expensive waiting--should they create offices with great salaries, where those who hold them may rob the public without a possibility of detection, and cabal among themselves for the disposal of them-- should they pass resolves, ridiculous in themselves, and impossible to be carried into execution--then will Congress sink into contempt, nor will all the importance they may endeavor to assume, nor the fastidious pomp they may display, support them; and then will the misfortunes of America begin" --Gen. St. Clair, at his court-martial, Sept. 29, 1778

Alexander Hamilton (Federalist No. 28): "If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is no recourse left but in the exertion of that original right of self- defense which is paramount to all forms of positive government.... (Fed#46)...The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."

"Wherever...the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction." - St. George Tucker, in his edition of 'Blackstone's Commentaries,' 1:300 (1803).

"The time is now near at hand which must probably determine whether Americans are to be freemen or slaves; whether they are to have any property they can call their own; whether their houses and farms are to be pillaged and destroyed, and themselves consigned to a state of wretchedness from which no human efforts will deliver them. The fate of unborn millions will now depend on God, on the courage and conduct of this army. Our cruel and unrelenting enemy leaves us only the choice of brave resistance, or the most abject submission. We have, therefore, to resolve to conquer or die." - George Washington; 1776

"SINGLE ACTS OF TYRANNY MAY BE ASCRIBED TO THE ACCIDENTAL OPINION OF A DAY; BUT A SERIES OF OPPRESSIONS, BEGUN AT A DISTINGUISHED PERIOD, AND PURSUED UNALTERABLY THROUGH EVERY CHANGE OF MINISTERS TOO PLAINLY PROVES A DELIBERATE, SYSTEMATIC PLAN OF REDUCING US TO SLAVERY." - Thomas Jefferson

"And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the right of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -Jefferson

"Whenever the legislators endeavor to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people, who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience." John Locke 1690 London

"The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them." - Joseph Story, Commentaries on the Constitution (1833).

"Let us recollect that peace or war will not always be left to our option; that however moderate or unambitious we may be, we cannot count upon the moderation, or hope to extinguish the ambition of others." - ALEXANDER HAMILTON

"The power of the sword, say the minority ...is in the hands of Congress. My friends and countrymen, it is not so, for THE POWERS OF THE SWORD ARE IN THE HANDS OF THE YEOMANRY OF AMERICA FROM SIXTEEN TO SIXTY. The militia of these free commonwealths, entitled and accustomed to their arms, when compared with any possible army, must be tremendous and irresistible. Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom? Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American...The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it ever will remain, in the hands of the people." -TENCH COXE

-- William in WI (gnarledmaw@lycos.com), October 22, 2001.



lesley you might want to get to praying and start that underground.

Doreen i doubt anyone here would jump on ya.

My gut reaction on 9-11-01 was why did the guv do this. It's weighed heavy on my mind and heart. But that was my initial reaction.

Even the poor and down trodden can rise to cause the "evil" to dissapate.

-- Kenneth in N.C. (wizardsplace13@hotmail.com), October 22, 2001.


God has placed watchmen on our walls and I am glad to meet you finally. Do I believe that this is a farfetched idea? Not at all. Unfortunately, I told my hubby what I thought and I am in agreement with you. This is eerie in and of itself that people such as ourselves should have the same thoughts and could come to the same conclusions.

What I have known for years is that there would be an underground. I have weighed people I have met not based upon whether they call themselves Christians or not, but upon whether I would trust them witht the lives of those I care about.

I have put out feelers to find out where they are in the scheme of things. What are they willing to stand for and what have they already fallen for? Needless to say, I don't trust many.

-- Stephanie Nosacek (possumliving@go.com), October 22, 2001.


Lesley, 1,2,3!perfect.....Exactly. Thanks for the succinct explanation of the Reichstag and unthinkable. I somehow always tend to get too long winded in my explantations!

Perhaps the best thing to do is to send your contact info to someone you trust and we can expand from there.

BTW, even if it doesn't appear to you that there is a possibility of gov. involvement from above, if you follow prophecy, you know it's coming anyway, so this may be what God uses to get folks connecting. We are all over the country, and that's fine, it may not be "us" that need the info. I'm trusting God to fill in all the blanks for me!

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), October 23, 2001.


Unfortunately for me I cannot join in a call to arms. God has been stern with me that violence is not the way out this time. Faith and awareness and a commitment to peaceful living is what I am called to. Believe me it is more frightening to face violence with faith than with a gun...I hope God keeps me strong enough. Thanks for bringing up this up Doreen. It is nice to know that I am not alone in wondering...

-- gilly (wayoutfarm@skybest.com), October 26, 2001.

It is such a relief to know that others are thinking the same thoughts that I am and coming to the same conclusions. Everyone I am around seems to think the government our wonderful Uncle Sam who loves us. I have only this week discovered this forum and it has been a blessing to me.

-- Kim (backwoods60@hotmail.com), October 26, 2001.


Wow, this string is a big blessing to me... I found myself immediately thinking along the same lines too. I hardly dare to voice my feelings along this line, as hubby is so deeply convinced that Dubya is genuine in all he says religion-wise. I am just not so easily convinced. Espeically with his "New World Order" reference in the speech immediately subsequent to the attacks. Remember, before he was elected, he said that his dad was a great president, and he looked up to how his dad ran the country. It is just too easy to learn a few phrases and fool a lot of people into thinking you follow the same God they do. Now mind, I am not passing judgment; I am only saying that I mistrust ALL politicians, which includes the President and the entire government.

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), October 26, 2001.

Lesley, how would you go about attacking the source? I don't understand everything sometimes, please forgive my ignorance.

-- Kim (backwoods60@hotmail.com), October 26, 2001.

Someone posted this over on CS and I think all of you would find this interesting. Are you Brainwashed? http://rense.com/general15/tr.htm

-- Bren (wayoutfarm@skybest.com), October 26, 2001.

EXCELLENT!!!! Exactly the point! Has anyone else snapped to all of this propaganda everywhere? Not just on the "flag waving" side, but on the "globalist"... er...um....NPR side as well. It ALL propaganda. Read carefully.

Just to help some folks out I made it a hotlink. There's a faq up on the right side of the main page that explains how to do it and I find it to be really helpful!!( this isn't meant to make you feel bad, just to help some folks that have trouble with their puters cutting and pasting properly, please don't take offense!)

Rense BrainWashing

Thanks for that link!

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), October 26, 2001.


No, I don't think our government flew giant jet planes into our own buildings, however, I DO think that the rash of anthrax mailings IS being done by radical members of our own society, ie., much as the Unabomber would have done.

Think about it, the mailings have been done to members of Congress and to the major media members. Perfect for the radical fringes devices to upset what they consider the Devil's Second Cousins who don't deserve to live.

-- Annie Miller in SE OH (annie@1st.net), October 26, 2001.



I do not believe for even one second that the anthrax is being sent by militias or extreme anti abortion groups. That is a very convenient Big Brother method of getting folks to not only look upon ME's with a jaundice eye but to look upon those who are not toting the "Geo Bush Jr is the best thing since sliced bread" party line.... which leads to the knee jerk legislation that is going to make McCarthyism look like a grand attempt to become friendly with your commie pinko neighbor.

It is undoubtedly the largest load of garbage that I have heard in this entire debacle. This stuff is of the quality that only Russia, Iraq and the US military have developed. The articles that indicate that are just not being picked up by the electronic media. I can just envision these folks, who work and run businesses here having the little chemistry lab set up in the back yard next to the wife's flower garden. Since we now have the PATRIOT Act passed if the goons want to they can just plant whatever they want as there are no longer any restraints on LEO's. Most people probably don't know that militia's arre simply not too heavily funded.

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), October 27, 2001.


No offense taken, Doreen! I'm usually holding a nursing baby so it is just easier for me to cut and paste. Thanks for making the hotlink for me!!

-- Bren (wayoutfarm@skybest.com), October 27, 2001.

Calm down Dreen, who said anything about miltia groups or anti abortion groups, I said radical fringes, that covers just about ANY whacko with a grudge!!!

Haven't you heard of the blackmarket? You can purchase ANYTHING there that you have enough money for, even nuclear devises. I still think that a Ted Kasinsky type nut, or several nuts, are taking "advantage" of the cover of the events of 9-11 to spread their particular brand of paranioa about the country.

What we all need to do is get rid of any elected official that has any affliation with the Democrats or Republicans, replace them with folks who understand what the Constitution is, so we have Freedoms left to defend here in this country. For info on this, go to www.lp.org for info on the Libertarian Party.

"Those of us who are willing to give up freedom for security deserve neither", this my best and most dear to my heart quote from Ben Franklin who worried 200 years ago we would become a nation of wooses.

-- Annie Miller in SE OH (annie@1st.net), October 28, 2001.


Hey Annie, there are a plethora of articles out there just like the one below. This is something that is especially distressing given the ridiculous destruction of the Constitution that was performed Friday. My feelings on that are that any politico who voted yes on the "No more freedom for all the slaves" act should be drawn and quartered.:) Alas, we have entered the Twilight Zone. I'm just waiting for someone to try to figure out how exactly Aryan Supremists decided to meet with ME's and purchase anthrax made in Iraq from good ole American stock. the whole scenario is really quite amusing in a sad, and twisted fashion.

And yes, I have heard of the black market. I also heard that the FBI had a scenario that they had played out to see if some guys with heavy duty chemical know how could actually procure the stuff they needed to make anthrax without benefit of state documents. Turns out they could. It took two years and 1.5 million dollars to get two pounds. That's a lot of this stuff, but look at the cost and then re think your Teo Kazcynski scenario. Again, these folks don't have the benefit(?) of loads of cash. I find it to be a truly faulty scenario. We can disagree on that, but with all of these articles popping up left and right it sure seems like the propaganda is working to me. I've heard it reitterated to me from several thoughtful people, and many that are not so thoughtful, too.

Please, if you know of some seriously well-funded right wing extremist or a group of them, let me know who they are!!!;).

DOJ And FBI Now Targeting 'Survival Groups' In Anthrax Investigation By Ed Vulliamy in New York The Observer 10-28-1 Neo-Nazi extremists within the US are behind the deadly wave of anthrax attacks against America, according to latest briefings from the security services and Justice Department. Experts on 'survivalist' groups and extreme-right 'Aryan' militants have been drafted into the investigation as the focus shifts away from possible links with the 11 September terrorists or even possible state backers such as Iraq. 'We've been zeroing in on a number of hate groups, especially one on the West Coast,' a source at the Justice Department told The Observer yesterday. 'We've certainly not discounted the possibility that they may be involved.' The anthrax crisis, which grew last week, had by Friday night spread to mailrooms at CIA headquarters, the Supreme Court and a hospital, and yesterday three traces were found in an office building serving the US Capitol. 'There are a number of strong leads, and some people we know well that we are looking at,' the Justice Department said. 'These are groups organised into militia and "survivalist" movements - which pull out of society and take to the hills to make war on the government, and who will support anyone else making war on the government.' Investigators are examining threatening letters sent to media organisations - some dated before the 11 September attacks - which did not contain anthrax but contained similar messages and handwriting style as those which later did. The theory is that the anthrax attacks were planned - and the killer germ was obtained and treated - long before the carnage of 11 September. Speaking to The Observer yesterday, the Justice Department official said: 'We have to see the right wing as much better coordinated than its apparent disorganisation suggests. And we have to presume that their opposition to government is just as virulent as that of the Islamic terrorists, if not as accomplished. 'But that is, in its way, one of the most compelling possible leads in the anthrax trail - that it is not really al-Qaeda's style, but rather that of others who sympathise with its war against the American government and media.' The official said the investigation had, in the past week, drafted in special teams from the Civil Rights division of the department to reinforce the international terrorism teams. The American neo-Nazi Right is motivated above all by its loathing of the federal government, which it believes is selling out the homeland to a 'New World Order' run by masons and Jews. Its insane politics have propelled numerous attacks and armed stand-offs over the past eight years, culminating in the carnage at Oklahoma. Now the anthrax investigation is zooming in on possible connections between these neo-Nazis and Arab extremists, united by their mutual anti-Semitism and hatred of Israel. Such alliances have been common among neo-Nazis in Europe, but have played a lesser role in the US. However, monitoring of the hate groups shows they are now embracing al-Qaeda's terrorism as commendable attacks on the federal government. Rabbi Abraham Cooper of the Simon Wiesenthal centre in Los Angeles said that at a meeting in Lebanon this year, US neo-Nazis were represented alongside Islamic militants. 'There's a great solidarity with the point of view of the bin Ladens of the world,' said Mark Potok of the Southern Poverty Law Centre, which monitors the far right. 'These people wouldn't let their daughters near an Arab, but they are certainly making common cause on an ideological level. They see the same enemy: American culture and multiculturalism.' Neo-Nazi websites, including the largest umbrella organisation, the National Alliance, show support for al-Qaeda. Billy Roper, the alliance's membership coordinator posted a message within hours of the 11 September attacks, reading: 'Anyone who is willing to drive a plane into a building to kill Jews is all right by me. I wish our members had half as much testicular fortitude.' Another group, Aryan Action, praised the attacks of 11 September, saying: 'Either you're fighting with the Jews against al-Qaeda or you support al-Qaeda fighting against the Jews.' Others outwardly support the anthrax mailing. One message, entitled 'No Sympathy for the Devil', was posted in several chat rooms by right-winger Grant Bruer, whose racist writings are circulated among supremacist groups. It reads: 'Is there not a single person who has received these anthrax letters that isn't an avowed enemy of the white race? Tom Brokaw, Tom Daschle and the gossip rag offices have all been 100 per cent legitimate targets. Who among us has the slightest bit of sympathy for these pukes?' Right-wing groups have had an interest in anthrax and other biological agents. A member of the Aryan Nation group once bragged he had a stash of anthrax from digging up a field where cows had died of the disease in the 1950s. Larry Wayne Harris was arrested after trying to obtain three vials of bubonic plague from a mail-order science company. The trail leading investigators to groups from the domestic ultra-right - rather than the al-Qaeda terror network - comes as a dramatic twist in the confused crisis. Last week, parallel evidence appeared to be linking the now rampant anthrax attacks to another trail: leading from Iraq and through the Czech Republic, with al-Qaeda militants as the likely couriers. The shift in the investigation echoes that which followed America's other infamous terrorist attack: the destruction of the federal government building in Oklahoma City in 1995. The bombing was initially thought to be the work of Arab extremists, but turned out to be the work of the Aryan supremacists.

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), October 28, 2001.


Up until the 9-11 tragedy, anyone could purchase anthrax mail order from several hundred, some in the USA, biomedical supply houses, just by using university request forms, and you still can, albeit illegally, from overseas supply houses. It's not a hard, nor expensive item, to procure, especially pre 9-11.

And, you could still smuggle some out of Fort Detrick in Frederick, MD, or could have quite easily pre 9-11, I have been in there making deliveries in the past and their security leaves very much to be desired.

-- Annie Miller in SE OH (annie@1st.net), October 29, 2001.


I'm making a list, checking it twice, gonna find out who's naughty and nice....then I'll contact you if I think I can trust you.

By the way, where does the underground start and stop? We no longer have a north/south or slave/free? Although, I was threatened with there are 'hunters' and 'fishers'. In the end the hunters will kill all of the fishers. I was told they were going to come for me! Got that message back in 92 in the state of FL. Wasn't the first time my life was threatened by New Agers, won't be the last, but somehow they keep finding me and letting me know it. They've come clear from California before. I suspect there's going to be a big showdown at the J.C. Corral.

-- Stephanie Nosacek (possumliving@go.com), October 29, 2001.


Ah, Possum, the underground is a light rail, and there is no start or stop only pauses along the way. Honestly, this elf doesn't know that there will be only rams and does pulling the train, there may well be some bucks and does who need a ride. There will definitely be a shoot out at JC corral.

How's that?

-- doe (cryptic@here.com), October 29, 2001.


Ooops! I failed already!!!! It was supposed to be ewes and such! This doesn't bode well for my future in the spy kingdom.sigh.

-- (crytic@here.com), October 29, 2001.

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