a vaccine question...(from a strange viewpoint maybe)

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whether anyone agrees with part of my question is irrelevant, it is a choice we make and no one else... with that out of the way....:) We don't vaccinate our children anymore (reactions and personal viewpoint, not open to debate), and all our livestock has been vaccinated with their annual shots. It is near the time when we need to give the shots again and I am just curious...does any of the reasonsing we use with our children apply with animals? Or is this a totally seperate area?

Our goat is a new residant here within the last year-and the previous owners did vaccinate-but said they had a strange reaction and told us not to do the vaccine as often (the CD&T one-done six montha ago) as some do, and we might even want to avoid it...so far we have. But it is nearing breeding time for her-and we also are considering the staph accine (lysign or something like that-probaby misspelled). We had a bought of that staph-nasty-and it is apparently cleared up, but are a bit concerned about having it appear again. Maybe the vaccine wouldn't even work in that case...

Anyway-I would like to hear others ideas on this. So far I am leanign toward vaccinating-but it feels a bit strange since we don't for our family.

Sarah

-- Sarah (heartsongacres@juno.com), October 08, 2001

Answers

Just like your children they are your stock. Of course you do not have to vaccinate. You then of course need to read up on enterotoxemia and Tetanus, being able to deal with the sudden death from both of these or the treatment, which is an antitoxin shot, very large expensive amounts. And there is the crux. Vaccinations are prevention, no we have never in 15 years had a goat with tetanus or enterotoxemia, but the loss of one really nice doe kid is much more than the cost of vaccines for 15 years. It is also much more expensive to treat an animal with a disease than to have just vaccinated. Prevention for cocci is the same, use pennies worth of prevention every 3 weeks in your kids, or nearly 50$ worth of antibitotics, gut calmers, sulfas and though you have saved them you have forever lost her potential. Worming is the same, yes a goat will either die of anemia or her own immunity finally kicks in and though she will suffer in body size, milk, kids born etc. she is alive. My goal in goats is just simply alot more than that!

You are only choosing to not vaccinate your children as children. Once adults, for college, for jobs, for childbirth your children will then as young adults be vaccinated anyway. Once again you are probably much to young to have had kids with polio in your grade school. I had a titer come up on blood test for German Measles when I was pregnant the first time, I lost the baby full term, whether or not this was because I was unvaccinated we will never know. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), October 08, 2001.


Vicky,

The polio vaccine did not contribute to the eradication of polio. The polio vaccine actually incerased the incidence of polio.

This type of information has been routinely ignored by a medical industry that is making huge amounts of money by scaring people and attempting to make people dependent on their physicians.

In regard to animals you also have to consider the likelihood of the animals dteing as a direct result of taking a vaccine, and also the likelihood of the vaccine-ridden meat having negative health affects on the people who consume meat or milk that comes from vaccinated animals.

This is certainly a matter that requires a good deal of independent study. We cannot simply rely on what we have been told by a few experts.

-- Rick#7 (rick7@postmark.net), October 08, 2001.


I've raised just about every kind of critter out there, and almost never vaccinated anything. It takes a lot more study, organization, and observation though, more than many people have time or patience for. A healthy animal rarely gets sick, and if it does, there are natural remedies, but there are also natural preventatives, both herbal and in management practices. You have to be very dedicated to the whole principle of no drugs to make it work, cuz just giving shots is a lot easier.

-- e (earthmama48@yahoo.com), October 08, 2001.

Animals do not die from vaccines. Animals die from poor vacination technique. Dragging a needle through a vein on insert, not aspirating, having to use antitoxin because you haven't correctly vaccinated with a Toxoid.

So polio just disappeared on its own like small pox, german measles and whooping cough? We went from many many kids in our area of San Diego to none, and not because of the vaccine? I seriously doubt that. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), October 08, 2001.


Oh Vicki, you're so right about the polio vaccine!! I grew up in the L.A. area in the 50's early 60's and once we were all vaccinated the epidemic was over. It was one of the most marvelous vaccines to come along back then. There were kids every year, before the vaccine, that ended up with polio. None of my classmates, thank heavens, but some of their sibs. One neighbor boy was in an iron lung for I don't know how many years before dying.

-- Anna in Iowa (countryanna54@hotmail.com), October 08, 2001.


I've read some iffy things about vaccines too but I tell ya what, I was bitten by a rabid cat several years ago and I was darn glad to get shot up with rabies globulin even though it put me on my back for the better part of a week. Immunity is a complicated thing and there's always going to be risks associated with either way you go. Examining those risks and determining what is acceptable risk are the key things to do. A good example is Anthrax. What a nasty vaccine! Many service people have gotten very ill from it, some have refused to take it and gotten discharged. But exposure risk just went through the roof it would appear. I bet there aren't many service people turning down that vaccine these days.

-- Susan (smtroxel@socket.net), October 08, 2001.

Rick#7, you must be quite young or you would know that the polio vaccine ended the polio epidemic. I can tell you first hand what it was like when polio was rampant and the hospitals were full of iron lungs. These tirades about vaccinating are both dangerous and ignorant and people need to check the facts. Everyone is afraid of biological warfare in the anthrax etc. With the rediculous ignorance we are experiencing in this country about vaccination they don't have to go to that extreme to make a whole country take a look at "obsolete" diseases.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), October 08, 2001.

Practically the only folks that DON"T believe in using vaccines are the ones who aren't old enough to have ever seen someone die or suffer for years from polio, or watch a child drown in their own lung secretions of diptheria, helpless to do anything to relieve their suffering!!!

You have a greater chance of getting hit by lightening than a bad reaction that would be fatal from a vaccine, does that mean you should never go outside again so you won't get hit by lightening???

There are risks in everything you do everyday, you just have to make an intelligent choice, of risks verses benefits, and the chance of either happening.

In animals, the tetanus vaccine saves animals, especially horses, who are VERY prone to getting tetanus, from a horrible, agonizing, slow and painful death, all for the price of a three dollar shot. And the triple E shot is cheap insurance against a insect spread disease that has no cure otherwise, again, under three dollars! In 20 plus years of giving my own shots to dogs, cats and horses, I have never had a bad reaction in any animal, doesn't mean it can't happen anytime, but the incidence is rare, very rare, just ask your vet.

Being healthy has nothing to do with avoiding certain diseases, especially tetanus, it is present in the soil ALL the time, and is just waiting for the right cut, injury, or wound to enter your or your animals body and start multiplying rapidly, eventually making enough toxin to freeze up the voluntary and involuntary muscles of the body, so that you or your animal cannot move or even breathe, and you die of suffocation. Not a pretty picture.

Vaccines are a miracle of modern medicine, just ask anybody over the age of 50 or 60 about diptheria, polio, or smallpox, and listen to their stories about friends and family members that were lost to these diseases, and how they suffered before they died.

-- Annie Miller in SE OH (annie@1st.net), October 08, 2001.


Re Polio: We were all given the oral vaccine (live) as kids and my older kids got it too. Now they're finding that yes, polio has been eradicated except in some kids who got it from the live vaccine! My too younger kids got and are getting it in a different form, not live, I guess. The literature they give out at the doctor's admits that the live one is better for eradicating the disease, but it was causing some people to get it!

-- Christina (introibo2000@yahoo.com), October 08, 2001.

Ugh..I was afraid of this. Sorry to cause a ruckus!

Whatever people views are-we had scarey reactions which is part of why we don't vaccinate. Medically we can't.

back to LIVESTOCK vaccines...what about the transmission to humans via milk and meat-that is probably the biggest concern for us. We use antibiotics-though only if absolutely the only way...there are concerns about that for us.

Yes we do worm, on an as needed basis. So far samples have been clean with our schedule-and we are possibly going to try the herbal wormer (at least on the goats)

Vicki, maybe you know-since we have battled the staph mess (goats had it unbeknownst to us when we bought them)...can we vaccinate for that- or better not to bother? And if we get does kids this year-should we vaccinate them against it?

Once again, I am sorry for the mess.

Sarah

-- sarah (heartsongacres@juno.com), October 08, 2001.



Hi Sarah, I don't vaccinate my animals. However, I only raise polled goats, and if I disbudded, especially if I kept a horse, I would give a tetanus shot, because horses are carriers. Entero can be avoided by your feeding practices. If you decide not to vaccinate, research, research, research! I'm sure you did alot before you decided to stop vaccinating your children (I know I sure did) and you should do some more before you do the same with your critters. I've never had a disease (not even mastitis) since I stopped vaccinating years ago.

On another note, you probably realize that your children will never have to be vaccinated against anything, not for public school, not for oversea travel, nothing. Its up to us to find out the information necessary to make the right decisions for our families, and I wish you the best with whatever decision you make.

-- Julie (julieamc@eagleslair.net), October 08, 2001.


okay...just did a bit of newshopping-and this anthrax thing has me wondering too-about the vaccine.

I have seen several references to wool sorters as being carriers..we have sheep and do shear them ourselves and work with the wool. So do we need to test and vaccinate for this anthrax?

And while I am bringing up the news about the man who died in Fl of this...the FBI is now invloved? And I heard elsewhere there is another case-but not in Fl...anyone heard this?

Sarah

-- sarah (heartsongacres@juno.com), October 08, 2001.


Hi Sara, i've been news hoping too tonight, and came back to the forum to see if anyone was alking about the anthrax and bioware fare stuff. the secong guy was in florida, they worked together at the SUN office (the supermarket tabloid) CNN online now has a terrorific spred on the biological/chemical warfare stuff because of these 2 cases. Is anyone out there thinking about preparations for this kind of stuff? The vaccine issue is a can of worms, and prominent right now it looks like. Regarding animals vaccines, Vets I have worked with have told me the preliminary round is the one that brings immunity, if its going to come at all, the booster shots actually weeken the system and are less potent. For what that is worth. Blessings to all~*~

-- becca (lostcreek@olywa.net), October 09, 2001.

People that decide not to give their children vaccinations should have set with me by the deathbed of a five year old while they slipped away because the parents decided on the advice of a illiterate preacher that it was against the church teachings. People that do that are guilty of child abuse in the worst way. Those parents now know they killed their little girl and the other children were awarded to the grandparents for their protection. God protect us from the things people do in Gods name, seems like some one else thinks along those lines. Yes I put those parents and Bin Laden in the same group.

-- David (bluewaterfarm@mindspring.com), October 09, 2001.

No, the parents are not guilty of child abuse. While some vaccines are good (polio, smallpox) others are just there to make the manufacturers money (i.e. chickenpox). Now they are vaccinating children against Hepatitis B. A person can catch Hep B if they have multiple sex partners, are IV drug users, or work in the health care field. Out of my 5 children, 4 have had the Hep B shot (the younger ones). The only one without a speech problem is the one that did not have the shot. Conclusive evidence? No, it isn't. All I know is that the chances on a child contracting Hep B is extremely small and there is no reason to vaccinate infants against Hep B. Also, keep in mind that some vaccines were made by using fetal lung tissue (read aborted babies). Yes, I am afraid this is true. Do you own research or contact me and I will let you know where the info is located. One last thing, did you know that most of the individuals that recommend these vaccines own stock/recieve money from the vaccine makers? This means that they have a financial interest in making these vaccines mandatory whether the vaccines are safe or not. Just look at the roto- virus vaccine they recommneded. It killed and placed many infants in the hospital. Bottom line, research and see if the vaccines are really necessary.

-- Mike (uyk7@hotmail.com), October 09, 2001.


Horses are 'carriers' of tetanus???????

With so many strains of anthrax (I think the last I heard was 7 in the U.S.), that have been developed in laboratories, there is no way just one vaccine will protect you, since you don't know which strain you're exposed to. The university here in Texas has developed an oral method of taking the anthrax vaccine. It'll be ready for the public in about 5 years!! They admit that the enemy is making more strains as fast as we develop vaccines.

If a critter, since birth, had not had any vaccines, he might have built up some immunity ~ IF he had been exposed to the diseases. (Altho you can't build immunity to tetanus.) Once that critter is vaccinated for other diseases, you take a chance by stopping the vaccines.

I guess I can understand refusing SOME vaccines. I almost lost my ex and 3 kids from flu shots. I had refused to get it. No one in the family would ever get that shot again, no matter how they change it. BTW, I haven't had a cold/flu in 40 years.

-- ~Rogo (rogo2020@yahoo.com), October 09, 2001.


My statements regarding the ill effects of the polio vaccine are completely correct. I've researched the issue.

I don't want to hijack the original theme of this thread, so if you'd like to see some of the results of my research, feel free to email me or else start another thread on this topic.

-- Rick#7 (rick7@postmark.net), October 09, 2001.


Getting back to goats;), we go against the flow, but we vaccinate only for tetanus, about a month before kidding(to protect at disbudding and banding), and vaccinate the kids at two months. I'm not aware if there is a vaccination for staph....In regards to the comment above about not vaccinating children being abuse...So tragic that you lost a child, my deepest sympathies. However, one parent cannot say what is right for another parent's children. If a child is allergic to the vaccine or to its base, it would be ridiculous to inject him with it.

-- mary (marylgarcia@aol.com), October 09, 2001.

Speach problems and hep b shots have nothing in common child 1 & 2&3 no shots 4 shots .Child 2& 3 had {and still are recieving therapy} speach problems.2& 3 are also high honor students.

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), October 09, 2001.

Poor Sarah, do you feel like you've opened a can of worms?! My niece reacted very badly to her first MMR shot, so they never finished the series and boy did she have to deal with a lot of grief over that. I offer you my sympathies for whatever grief you've gone through concerning your decision with your children. With my goats, I vaccinate for tetanus since it is ever-present in the soil and not something I can avoid. I have inquired about vaccine carry-over in meat and was told that there was little (concerning CDT), but I'm not sure of the reliability of this vet's information. I have the distinct impression he has a severe case of POS (Physician Omnipotence Syndrome) and while he didn't know the answer, didn't want to appear to be less then omnipotent so he made it up as he went. (I am now using a vet who is much more grounded in reality.) I have not heard of a staph vaccine, but I've never had a real problem with staph so I've not really researched it. Ask the vet who treated your goat if there is a vaccine, if it is reliable and what it's carry-over is for milk and meat. If he takes on a holier-than- thou attitude, assume he has POS and get a second opinion!!! Now, I'll throw in my 2 cents on human vaccines (you can delete now if you want....at least I warned you first!). Do you garden or soil grub in any way and if you do, do you keep your tetanus shots up to date?

-- Sheryl in Me (radams@sacoriver.net), October 09, 2001.

rick#7, I don't know how or where you did your research on polio, but here are some facts.

About 1935, two physicians independently developed polio "vaccines" that did not work and at least one of them caused several deaths and much suffering from polio. Post WWII, there were over 20,000 polio cases annually in the USA. After the Salk and Sabin vaccines were developed and administered that number quickly fell to zero. The disease has been eradicated from the Western Hemisphere since 1994, with the exception of a recent outbreak in Haiti. Worldwide, there were, for example, about 350,000 new cases in 1988. After massive immunization programs in China, India and in many other countries, that number fell to 3500 last year, mostly in Africa. There is hope that polio will be utterly eradicated from the planet in a few years, all due to the vaccines.

It is true that since 1979 there have been vaccine-induced polio cases in the USA. But this must be balanced against the hundreds of thousands that would have occurred without the vaccine. There are risks with any vaccine or any medical treatment for that matter. Today, the risks of polio vaccination probably outweigh the risk of contacting the disease.

But consider the case of smallpox. After global eradication in 1977, vaccinations were halted and laboratory stocks were destroyed or sequestered. But, almost certainly, the Soviets cheated and manufactured tons of the virus. The USSR is gone but the fate of that stuff does not seem to be known. I, for one, would jump at the opportunity for being reimmunized to smallpox, and to anthrax as well.

Take care,

-- Martin Boraas (boraas@miliserv.net), October 10, 2001.


I'm not sure how this thread got to including polio, but, if anyone wants to know what it is like to have it and the ramifications, just ask me! I had polio in 1946 at the age of 4.

-- Ardie/Wi (ardie54965@hotmail.com), October 12, 2001.

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