True or False: All that is necessary for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing

What makes one man more "good" than another?

Does God love the most evil person imaginable any more than he loved his son?

-- Outside Observer (just@passing.through), October 05, 2001

Answers

Ah, where's a good Jesuit when you need one? :)

Of course God loves all people. But men are responsible for the things that they do. If I steal your television, God still loves me to death. But He also expects me to return your television, or He will continue to love me while I wear a striped suit with numbers!

-- Stephen M. Poole (smpoole7@bellsouth.net), October 05, 2001.

Since the Christian god is both omnipotent and omniscient (he can do everything and he knows everything), the Christian god knew the WTC attacks would happen and did nothing to stop them.

Therefore, all that is necessary for evil to prevail is for god to do nothing.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), October 05, 2001.

Tarzan, sometimes I let the kids settle things themselves.

-- visit camp helen, where men are men, women are men, and mules are men... (doomer@optimist.oxymoron), October 05, 2001.

And if, in the course of letting your kids "settle things for themselves", even one of your children dies, there would be no doubt that you are a terrible parent.

In the state of New York, there is a legal concept known as "depraved indifference". Basically, you can be held accountable in a criminal court if your inaction leads to the death of someone.

Why do some people insist on holding human beings to a higher standard of behavior than their god?

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), October 05, 2001.

Tarzan, in the case of God letting the "kids" settle things, the underlying assumption is that the death of the "kids" will merely put them into God's lap. Which is where my kids end up when the fighting gets too much to handle. I teach my kids that hurting each other is absolutely forbidden, and I think in most major religions with a deity, this is also what they say God teaches. We once had a problem with a brain-injured child who was a threat to the others and we went through hell for awhile. We didn't give up. I would hope God doesn't give up either.

-- helen (holding@net.for.you), October 05, 2001.

Actually, I guess it depends on which god you believe in. In the case of the Christian religion, the only "children" who end up in god's lap are those who are saved. Those who are not saved (and there are quite a lot of them if you believe the Bible) end up being punished for all time and eternity.

Of course, maybe there is a god and maybe s/he/it/they have gotten bad press and aren't as described. You still have a problem with the pain and suffering for those who survived and those who have been left behind. I've heard it said that human suffering is nothing more than a child crying over a bump on his head to god. But what kind of a parent, or any person, knowing that a child was about to konk his head hard, would sit back and allow it to happen?

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), October 05, 2001.

Tarzan, who knows that God didn't intervene? The initial estimates of casualties was in the tens of thousands.

-- helen (let@me.help.you), October 05, 2001.

What kind of a God would allow puns like--

Therefore, all that is necessary for evil to prevail is for god to do nothing.

Owwwwwwwooo.

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), October 05, 2001.

the BIBLE ,say's ''GODs WAY'S are higher than mans way's-who can know them?? YAHWEH[G-D] is knowable,in the face/person of JASHUAH/JESUS.

and THINK on this,JESUS said''ONLY GOD IS GOOD!!!

if [you] do a study of G-Ds dealings with Israel,you get a clue!

how foolish to think A merica is totally innocent.

do you really think,you can mock GOD, and there will be no result's?

to-day CHRISTian-bashing is considered cool!

and most churches have become''bless me clubs''

where are those,that REVERENCE GOD and his HOLY SON?? and love thy neighbor as thyself. does GOD send WAKE UP CALL'S???? YES=study Israel's past & future.

too say WHY// this or that reveals ignorance of GODs Way's. ''GOD is no respecter of persons,we can wave all the flag's we want, but the ONLY banner GOD admires is CHRIST!!!

THE BATTLE OF ARMAGGEDON,WILL BE THE FINAL=WAKE UP CALL!

[see] if this register's=man is not in CONTROL!!!!

a wise man once prayed=''examine me oh LORD, and see if there be any wicked way in [me]and please lead me in the WAY Everlasting''

so who's side is GOD on?=HIS SON'S. when JESUS/MESSIAH returns with his saint's-then destroy's GODs enemies--you will know=WHY!

[you]have heard the TRUTH, the[choice[ is your's.........

get too KNOW the LORD[JESUS] while you can.

-- al-d. (dogs@zianet.com), October 05, 2001.

False. In a room full of "good people" doing nothing--nothing happens. Evil requires a fair amount of effort, though less with exercise and a balanced diet. Evil happens even when "good people" act in opposition. Sometimes evil happens when "good people" act out of ignorance.

As mortal men, we can only judge a man by his actions. A man may be twisted and perverse, but if he sits quietly how would we know? Only God (or apparently Tarzan) can peer into the soul of a man and take his measure.

The Christian answer to "why" can be found in the Book of Job, specifically Chapter 38. If I might borrow from G.K. Chesterton:

"The mechanical optimist endeavors to justify the universe avowedly upon the ground that it is a rational and consecutive pattern. He points out that the fine thing about the world is that it can all be explained. That is the one point, if I may put it so, on which God, in return, is explicit to the point of violence. God says, in effect, that if there is one fine thing about the world, as far as men are concerned, it is that it cannot be explained. He insists on the inexplicableness of everything."

Unfortunately, Tarzan's grasp of Christian theology seems to come from a cereal box or fundamentalist pamphlet. Things are bit more complex (and subtle) than afterlife escalators, one going down and one going up.

-- Remember (the@ld.forum.com), October 05, 2001.

Tarzan, who knows that God didn't intervene? The initial estimates of casualties was in the tens of thousands.

Helen, that's even worse. A god who plays favorites is horrible to contemplate.

As mortal men, we can only judge a man by his actions. A man may be twisted and perverse, but if he sits quietly how would we know? Only God (or apparently Tarzan) can peer into the soul of a man and take his measure.

Ah, but I'm not talking about a man, I'm talking about a fictional character invented by men. Big difference.

"God says, in effect, that if there is one fine thing about the world, as far as men are concerned, it is that it cannot be explained. He insists on the inexplicableness of everything."

Give up, it's inexplicable. What a cop-out. It's a good thing that philosophy isn't more prevalent, otherwise we would still be living in the stone age.

Unfortunately, Tarzan's grasp of Christian theology seems to come from a cereal box or fundamentalist pamphlet. Things are bit more complex (and subtle) than afterlife escalators, one going down and one going up.

If you wish to discuss my grasp of theology, you may address me directly.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), October 05, 2001.

gee, I know this is hard too grasp.''man is not in control""

yes, there is a big clue,in book of JOB!!

ahhhhhhh,But JOB=passed the test!!

now if [good] men, get hammered,what happens too the wicked?? oh,and JOB finally got it!!

ain,t it amazing how=mere mortal's wanna argue with GOD almighty??

now for the end of the story=GOD WINS!!!

-- al-d. (dogs@zianet.com), October 05, 2001.

One would think that someone who was supposedly on his way to an appointment in one of the doomed World Trade Center towers would be thanking God for his good fortune of not having arrived there yet.

Then again, one would also think that having survived such a supposedly close brush with death, that someone would not consider "Tell the forum that I'm alive", to be of the same level of priority as, "I'm not hurt", and "I love you" when calling home to a wife.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), October 05, 2001.

Take a second look, J.

http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=006LKw

Hello everone. I am Jane, Tarzan's wife. He called me from NYC to tell me that he is okay. He has minor injuries but they let him give blood anyway. They desperately need blood up there. He asked me to tell everyone to give blood if they can. He posts on a couple of internet forums and I think he would like it if I let those people know that he is safe. He does not know when he can come home or even how he will come home.

Jane seems to have taken it upon herself to post here. It doesn't look like Tarzan asked her to post here.

-- Just helping out (look@closer.com), October 05, 2001.

If you have a grasp of theology, Tarzan, you have kept it carefully hidden by describing Christianity in stunningly simplistic terms. I will not quibble with your conclusion about God as a "fictional character." The existence of God will be neither proven nor disproven here. The existence of God is not contingent on one person's faith or lack thereof. It would be a mistake, however, to dismiss Christians or Christian theologians as intellectually flawed (or irrational), as you seem inclined to infer.

Your interpretation of Job is dreadfully off the mark. The message of Job is not about surrendering rationality, but about understanding its limitations. The "God-like" hubris I find truly amusing is that you think the entire universe should fit neatly into your perception of rationality. That which you cannot (or will not) conceive or accept must not exist. (Perhaps you're from Missouri.)

I understand that you believe God does not exist. For the purpose of argument, let's presume the existence of God, at least for the moment. How could any creature as finite as a single man hope to truly understand the nature of an infinite being? To use a more secular example, how can a single man understand the entire universe?

Does this mean we should "give up" on exploring space or colonizing new worlds or pushing the boundaries of knowledge? Of course not. That's just a silly projection of Luddism. Just as scientists attempt to understand the nature of the universe; Christians attempt to understand the nature of God. One does not preclude the other.

I do not wish to waste your time or mine. I doubt you have any sincere interest in the nature of a being you firmly believe does not exist. Does anyone want to discuss the callous way Santa Claus categorizes children as "naughty" or "nice" or the illogical of an Easter Bunny distributing eggs?

-- Remember (the@ld.forum.com), October 05, 2001.

Job was a righteous man.

-- Jack Booted Thug (governmentconspiracy@NWO.com), October 05, 2001.

Dennis-

It didn't even occur to me to be thankful to anyone, or anything, that I was alive. I'm happy to be alive of course but that happiness is tempered with the knowledge that so many other people weren't so fortunate.

Just helping out-

Thanks for posting Jane's post. To be honest, I didn't even know Jane had posted here until I checked my e-mail, about a week after I got back and saw all the kind messages people sent. Thanks for that, folks.

Remember-

If you have a grasp of theology, Tarzan, you have kept it carefully hidden by describing Christianity in stunningly simplistic terms.

Odd. The writers of the New Testament seem to think that belief in Chrsit was simplicity.

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

The message of Christ, which Christianity is based upon, is a very simple one. John 3:16. Sinful man, seperated from loving God, needs perfect sacrifice to bridge the gap. According to the New Testament, Christ is the only way to God. John 14:6. Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

If this is true, then it follows that there is no way one who does not believe in Christ could end up with God. Moreover, Christ made clear in Matthew 10:29 that nothing happens without God: Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father's will.

If not even a sparrow falls to the ground without God's will, what about a tower or two? And if several people were killed when those towers fell, people who didn't come to the Father through Christ, where do you think those souls ended up?

It would be a mistake, however, to dismiss Christians or Christian theologians as intellectually flawed (or irrational), as you seem inclined to infer.

On the contrary. I think there is a beautiful simplicity in the message of Christ that has been distorted and misrepresented throughout the ages for personal interest and gain. However, I do feel that the basic concept that message, and every other religious message, is based upon is flawed. You might say it's a great house built on the sand (see Matthew 7:24-28).

Your interpretation of Job is dreadfully off the mark.

Actually, I haven't interpreted Job, or even referred to him. I was referring to G.K. Chesterton.

I understand that you believe God does not exist. For the purpose of argument, let's presume the existence of God, at least for the moment.

Why limit ourselves to one god? Why not every god? Zeus, Krishna, Allah, Hecate, Thor and any other god you can conceive of are all equally likely to be true as the Christian god.

Does this mean we should "give up" on exploring space or colonizing new worlds or pushing the boundaries of knowledge?

But that is exactly the logical conclusion of your quote by G.K. Chesterton. According to him, the entire world, as created by "God" is inexplicable. And if a thing, or in this case, everything, is inexplicable, then there is no explaining it, hence no use in attempting to explain it.

But the fact is that the world IS explicable, contrary to G. K. Chesterton, as even you must admit. Otherwise, why did you post the quote?

Just as scientists attempt to understand the nature of the universe; Christians attempt to understand the nature of God. One does not preclude the other.

And yet, according to G. K. Chesterton, "He (god) insists on the inexplicableness of everything."

And you've just directly contradicted G.K. Chesterton.

Just out of curiosity, why did you quote someone you disagree with?

I doubt you have any sincere interest in the nature of a being you firmly believe does not exist.

I have no interest in god/s/ess/esses it's true, but I do have a lot of interest in the mechanism of belief, especially in the way people maintain their belief in the face of contradiction and evidence to the contrary.

However, the purpose of my post had nothing to do with whether or not any god/s/ess/esses exist, but rather why we hold him/her/it/them to a lower standard than we do our fellow humans.

The men who flew the plain into the tower were monsters. We're falling all over ourselves (collectively speaking) in an orgy of brainstorming to find others to blame however peripherally. Yet, if you believe in a supreme being, one who is omniscient and omnipotent, you have someone who not only knew the attack would happen but had the capability of stopping it and allowed it to happen. Where is the outrage?

Does anyone want to discuss the callous way Santa Claus categorizes children as "naughty" or "nice" or the illogical of an Easter Bunny distributing eggs?

The day that Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny aid and abet the torture and murder of 6,000 people and the wounding of thousands more, we'll talk.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), October 05, 2001.

Remember: "False. In a room full of "good people" doing nothing-- nothing happens."

We are not necessarily in a room full of good people.

Tarzan: "Ah, but I'm not talking about a man, I'm talking about a fictional character invented by men. Big difference."

No, we are not talking about a god, we are talking about a fictional character invented by god. Absolutely no difference.

-- Outside Observer (just@passing.through), October 05, 2001.

"All that is necessary for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing"

No, in order for evil to prevail, good men must be doing evil.

"What makes one man more "good" than another?"

Illusion. No man is more good than another.

"Does God love the most evil person imaginable any more than he loved his son?"

God does not know evil, only humans do. It is an illusion. God IS love, and is not capable of being more than love or less than love for different people.

-- Mahareshi Mahesh Yogi (yabba@dabba.doo!), October 05, 2001.

More bad theology and scripture taken out of context (not too mention some shabby spelling.) There are aspects of Christianity that are simple. The application of these "simple" concepts is often complex, even sublime. Human understanding is imperfect. The Scriptures are metaphorical, stories meant to aid man in understanding God. They are not instructions for assembling a cosmic tricyle.

You mock the Scripture by taking a fundamentalist approach. The real message of the New Testament is not about "sinful man," but spiritual man. It is the story of a revolutionary moral philosophy and an extraordinary life lived. It is a testament to the human soul, the power of love and necessity of sacrifice. Christ reaches out to the poor, the lame, the blind, the outcasts of society. He teaches the essential message of love, particularly to those greatest in need. You twist this into a God of cruelty and capriciousness.

God does not micro-manage the universe. Free will is only possible without predestination. Why do good things happen to bad people? Because chance, fate, the luck of the draw are the price of a universe where man (and sparrows) are free.

You continue to misunderstand Chesterton, deliberately I suppose. I will stay with the secular example of the universe. The entire universe is inexplicable. I say this knowing we live on one tiny speck of a planet amid a universe vast beyond our comprehension. We have unlocked a few secrets, but have we even scratched the surface of understanding the universe in its entirety? According to your logic, I should not eat a slice of apple pie after dinner because I readily admit I cannot eat every apple pie that has ever existed or ever will exist.

Chesterton does not say we cannot understand anything about God, but that we cannot understand everthing about God. If you still have still grasping this theory, tell your wife you understand everything about her. It should be educational.

The disaster at the World Trade Center was a picnic next to the Holocaust. By your logic, the Jews should have abandoned God long ago. Do the Jews blame God for Nazi Germany? None I know do. By your logic, any Supreme Being has an obligation to divert suicide bombers, thwart repressive regimes and save small animals from traffic. Since evil exists, there can be no God because (according to you) because any decent sort of God would save our collective asses on a routine basis.

Why doesn't God appear on Oprah? Why doesn't he just run the entire show from Aspen? Why not just impose Paradise and let it rain manna and Faith Hill music videos? Faith is the choice to believe what cannot be proven. I do not know, but I have a hunch that the process of faith is critical to our development as spiritual beings. The souls of men are not forged in Eden, but in the Inferno.

-- Remember (the@ld.forum.com), October 05, 2001.

Ya'll are getting way too deep for me. All this heavy thought is a little much on Friday evening.

Besides, the way I see it, we are merely a scientific experiment anyway. And you know you don't monkey with an experiment while you are collecting data... It would screw up your results...

The question is, what results are being looked for?

sniffin' at the table...

The Dog

-- The Dog (dogdesert@hotmail.com), October 05, 2001.

Tarzan,

Another ancient argument. :)

Since the Christian god is both omnipotent and omniscient (he can do everything and he knows everything), the Christian god knew the WTC attacks would happen and did nothing to stop them.

Absolutely correct.

Therefore, all that is necessary for evil to prevail is for god to do nothing.

Also absolutely correct.

-- Stephen M. Poole (smpoole7@bellsouth.net), October 06, 2001.

SMP -

Therefore, all that is necessary for evil to prevail is for god to do nothing.

Isn't it your conclusion, here, that man himself, then, is actually the sole driving force behind evil? And by your logic doesn't it also follow that nothing that man can do (or not do) will prevent evil from winning without God's intervention? How ya gonna have it, here?

-- Zzzzz (asleep@the.wheel), October 06, 2001.

Or, are you saying that if man does not actively intercede with "good" that evil will prevail?

-- Zzzzz (asleep@the.wheel), October 06, 2001.

Far be it from me to stick my nose in another man's argument, but some of the things Remember has said really stuck in my craw.

"More bad theology and scripture taken out of context (not too mention some shabby spelling.)"

Matthew 7:2-4. Galatians 6:1.

All you can do is say that Tarzan has "bad theology" yet you don't even try to correct him. It seems you've forgotten the Great Commission. That is, if you even know what it is, which is in some doubt.

Galatians 6:1.

"There are aspects of Christianity that are simple. The application of these "simple" concepts is often complex, even sublime. Human understanding is imperfect. The Scriptures are metaphorical, stories meant to aid man in understanding God. They are not instructions for assembling a cosmic tricyle."

Nonsense. The Word itself is simple, it is only man who has burdened it with the useless trappings of pomp and religion and the LIE that the Word of the LORD does not mean what it says! Matthew 23:13.

"You mock the Scripture by taking a fundamentalist approach. The real message of the New Testament is not about "sinful man," but spiritual man. It is the story of a revolutionary moral philosophy and an extraordinary life lived. It is a testament to the human soul, the power of love and necessity of sacrifice. Christ reaches out to the poor, the lame, the blind, the outcasts of society. He teaches the essential message of love, particularly to those greatest in need. You twist this into a God of cruelty and capriciousness."

More nonsense! The mercy of the LORD only exists with the consequences of dwelling in ERROR! The LORD was very specific about the fate of those who hear and ignore His message. 2 Peter 2:4-9. Luke 12:4-6. Without consequences, there can be no mercy and the great sacrifice that took place 2000 years ago becomes nothing but a waste of time!

"God does not micro-manage the universe."

Even more nonsense! His eye is on the very sparrow, how much more does He care for us? Luke 12:4-6.

I've had a lively e-mail discussion with Tarzan for quite sometime. He is an atheist, true, but he is both thoughtful and knowledgeable. He is a good man but like all men he will be damned without Christ. He knows this. You on the other hand seem to be laboring under the illusion that the Word of the LORD is not good enough, but must be interpreted! Rev. 3:15-16. Give me Saul on the road to Damascus over 100 Pharisees any day!

I will add you to my prayers, Remember. You have been grossly, badly misled. I will pray that the light of the LORD will open your eyes.

-- Polly Wanna Cracker? (polly@wanna.cracker), October 06, 2001.

We have both extremes represented; atheism and fundamentalism. I appreciate the prayers, Polly, but I doubt they will bring our discourse to any reasonable raprochement. I reject Fundamentalism and a literal interpretation of the Bible. A reasonable knowledge of Biblical history (including how the books have evolved) makes it difficult for me to believe God dictated passages to human stenographers. Rather than prattle on about the flaws of fundamentalism, let me refer you to a readable little book: "Stealing Jesus : How Fundamentalism Betrays Christianity" by Bruce Bawer. It's not heavy reading (from a theological standpoint), but you'll get the drift. As for "Great's," I prefer to to discuss the "Great Disappointment."

-- Remember (the@ld.forum), October 06, 2001.

Someone brought up Santa Claus so I thought I'd throw this one in...

Santa Claus: The Anti-Christ?

Staff Report (December 24, 2000)

[CAPITALISMMAGAZINE.COM] MARINA DEL REY, CALIF.—Novelist/philosopher Ayn Rand wrote that "the charming aspect of Christmas is the fact that it expresses good will in a cheerful, happy, benevolent, non- sacrificial way. One says 'Merry Christmas'—not 'Weep and Repent.'"

With that in mind, the proper source of Christmas cheer is not religion, but commercialism, said an Ayn Rand Institute senior writer. "The commercialism of Christmas, its emphasis on ingenuity, pleasure, and gift buying, is the holiday's best aspect—because it is a celebration, the achievement of life," said Andrew Bernstein.

"One of the best legacies of the Industrial Revolution is the fact that it transformed Christmas from a time of self-denial and lament to a time of celebration and good will. Only a life-enhancing society could create such a secular, non-religious celebration." Bernstein added that Santa Claus, with his focus on rewarding the good whether they are rich or poor, is the perfect symbol of the secular Christmas holiday.

Another Ayn Rand scholar, Leonard Peikoff author of Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand, in his essay "Why Christmas Should Be More Commercial" agrees with Bernstein, noting that,

...the Puritans denounced Santa as the Anti-Christ, because he pushed Jesus to the background. Furthermore, Santa implicitly rejected the whole Christian ethics. He did not denounce the rich and demand that they give everything to the poor; on the contrary, he gave gifts to rich and poor children alike. Nor is Santa a champion of Christian mercy or unconditional love. On the contrary, he is for justice — Santa gives only to good children, not to bad ones.

"Santa Claus is, in literal terms, the anti-Christ," said Bernstein. "He is about joy, justice, and material gain, not suffering, forgiveness, and denial."

But Santa Claus is also a symbol of good will, and thus is the appropriate holiday symbol of America, a country that, because of its material prosperity, can inspire good will in all of its citizens."

-- Eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), October 06, 2001.

Before Ayn Rand celebrated commercialism, before Christians celebrated "suffering, forgiveness and denial" or the birth of JC (whichever you prefer), most cultures just celebrated the Winter Solstice, in some form.

Seems to me that Saturnalia is alive and well.

-- (lars@indy.net), October 06, 2001.