How can you tell a Leica M was used?

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How does one determine a negative/transparency was actually shot with a Leica M? Are there any telltale signs such as the Hasselblad 'V-marks' on the LHS of the frame? HCB printed most of his images full frame with a rebate - does the rebate tell the story? Many thanks!

-- Stephen Dominick (sdstudio@vaxxine.com), October 04, 2001

Answers

The Leica doesn't have any ID marks - but oddly, the Hexar RF (quasi Leica-mount body) DOES have a small curved notch that appears in the upper left of the final image border.

Any 35mm negative can be printed with a rebate.

One hint: with 1960s era 28 and 21mm lenses, the glass was so close to the film that it actually exposed UNDER the edge of the film gate, so that 21mm frames actually extended into the sprocket holes, and all wide angle frames were a mm or so 'fatter' than frames exposed with normal/tele lenses.

This is true of all rangefinders using true (not retrofocus) ultrawide lenses, and not true with SLRs and their constant 43mm backfocus.

Also, with older Leicas the spacing between frames starts to get more and more uneven - another tip-off. 8^)

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), October 04, 2001.


Furthermore, on the older LTM Leicas, such as the IIc, the film would occasionally wander, causing the sprocket holes to intrude into the picture. This is also visible in a number of HC-B's images.

-- Mani Sitaraman (bindumani@pacific.net.sg), October 05, 2001.

I've noticed that the image frame is slightly longer with my M3s than with Kodak, Canon, and Minolta cameras. The first image below was shot with an M3; the second was shot with a Canon F1 (the bright light bleeds into the border at the top--no anti-halation layer on HIE). The difference in thickness of top and bottom borders isn't great, but it's consistent.



-- Mike Dixon (mike@mikedixonphotography.com), October 05, 2001.


Mike: Excellent observation. Any difference between the M3 and other M bodies?

(Nice pix, too.)

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), October 05, 2001.


Interesting; I once suspect this bigger images from superangulons, but also blamed on the older M3, and I have found Canon frames smaller too, interesting, so you can track the camera that took a picture by the actual size of the neg.

-- r watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), October 05, 2001.


The early M3's (double-stroke) did indeed have a slightly oversized film gate, but later M3's are same as standard. Exposures from a non- retrofocus wide angle like the 21/3.4 will actually touch each other when made with an early M3 DS.

I can tell which rolls were exposed with my M2, M3 or M6 because the earlier owners of each had filed an identifying notch in the film gate of each. I can identify a print from each camera, because I usually print full-frame with black border. I think this notching is/was common procedure for pros who use multiple cameras in same format and need to be able to identify which camera is in need of service.

-- Tim Nelson (timothy.nelson@yale.edu), October 05, 2001.


Tim, or any one How can you make such a notch, I may have an idea, but would like to heard coments

-- r watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), October 05, 2001.

I read many years ago about some Nikon F / F2 user that always had 4 or 5 cameras in use, so he took a small jeweler's file and made a tiny "V" shaped notch along the film gate on the bottom. Each camera had it's notch in a different location along the 36mm length. If he ever got back a roll of film that had some obvious problem, (meter or shutter error), he could quickly determine which camera was the culprit by lining up the notch on the film with the camera that matches that placement. This saved him a lot of retesting when cameras started to have problems, and allowed him to keep shooting with the good cameras with no fear.

I have a group of under 200 Dollar Nikon F's, but I can't see myself doing this with my Leicas. I guess I am not at that "the camera is only a tool" phase yet... not when the tools cost two grand.

-- Al Smith (smith58@msn.com), October 05, 2001.


Mani--

Thanks for the explanation...I have always wondered why some of HC-Bs pics include sprocket holes. I kept wondering if he had problems loading one of his cameras, but then I would think, "Nah, he HAD to know how to load a Leica!" They seem to all be from the early 1950s (at least the ones I have seen with this problem); is that when the IIc was built?

-- Douglas Kinnear (douglas.kinnear@colostate.edu), October 05, 2001.


Tim: Roberto (?), Al:

"Notching' was very common practice on 60s - Leica, Nikon, you-name-it. For exactly reasons described. Geographic, AP and other photo organizations with lots of cameras to keep track of did it frequently- often multiple notches. Of course, Leicas were 'just' cameras, then.

As stated: a small triangular or square cross-section file, using the corner to make a triangular notch while the shutter is open on 'B'. The file can/should be at an angle (not straight in towards the lens mount) since the light rays will be 'spreading' as they reach the film. And it can be a very tiny notch - it will look huge on any enlargement.

Afterwards: Be sure to remove any burrs that might stick up and scratch the film surface - blow out any filings carefully from both the film area and the 'box' between the lens and shutter - and use at least a black Sharpie (if not some matte black paint) to cover any shiny metal showing to prevent flaring from the notch's surface.

Once you get this down, you can turn your basic Yashica TLR negs into "Hasselblad" negs. 8^)

Personally, my M4-2 has slightly less even frame spacing than the M4-P, and I can usually tell anyway because the M4-P shoots with the 28/35, while the M4-2 carries the 21/90.

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), October 05, 2001.



I can easily distinguish negatives taken with my R6 as opposed to any M body I own. Frames taken with my R camera are in a slightly higher (or lower) position accross the width of the film than frames taken with any of my M bodies. This becomes evident when positioning the negative into my 25x37 negative carrier, the one that gives the black line surrounding the image. To get an equal black line surrounding an R frame, the negative must be positioned in the carrier right side up so the projected image is upside down on the easel.

-- Tony Rowlett (rowlett@mail.com), October 05, 2001.

Tim Nelson noted that early M3s had a larger film gate. I happen to have an early (1955) M3 and an M4. I put the shutters on B, opened them, and measured the length of the gate with a set of dial micrometers. Sure enough, the M3 came in at 1.43 x .96 inches, the M4 at 1.40 x .94...not much but it's there.

-- (clzeni@mindspring.com), November 03, 2001.

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