The back page of the Ronnie has a full page picture of fans favourite Warren Barton. The headline is: Hammers bid for Barton in short both Wham & Charlton are sniffin. I think if money is offered then Bartininho is outta here.

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

Answers

They were obviously so impressed by his performance at Upton Park a couple of weeks ago.

Personally, I don't see it happening. SO it probably will :-(

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

i think it'll be a tad sad. wozzer puts in a lot, if he goes i reckon his replacement should be absolute TOP quality...

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

Swift - the article reckons that there is a lot of competition for RB - Griffin, Hughes etc. so I'd doubt if a replacement would be sought from outside. Also possibly scuppers his chances of joining the coaching staff

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

It would be really sad to see Wozza go: he deserves a coaching role more than any of the other senior players. Having said that, Griff's performance on Sunday was less than accomplished and Hughesie is very much a substitute right back, so I'm not sure we can just sell Wozza like that.

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

LOL. Just looked at TOTT opinions on this & they are discussing ideal back fours. Anyway, one of them says, "Distin looks like a monster. But then again, so does King Kong and he's shit at defending." Childish but made me laugh.

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

See below from the Chronicle - I recall us paying around £4m for Bartinho & it being a lot of money at the time, but was he really the most expensive full back in the world? Beggars belief.

"But the player who was at one time the most expensive full-back in the world now faces competition from Andy Griffin for the right-back slot."

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

I thought he was the most expensive defender full stop. The reason he cost so much at the time was that he was a midfielder for Wimbledon. Back in those exciting days of only being able to name 3 substitutes it also paid to have a few lads on the books who could play in a number of positions (Clark, Watson, Lee, Barton) whereas now the we can name a player for each area of the field, that versatility is no longer as valuable as specialization.

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

As ever, the sand-dancer Gazette provides some words.....

WEST Ham United and Charlton Athletic are keeping a close eye on Warren Barton's situation at St James's Park.

The 32-year-old is now in his seventh season with Newcastle United, but is out of contract at the end of the current campaign. As yet, there have been no discussions about extending Barton's stay on Tyneside, prompting the two London Premiership rivals to express an interest in the Cockney defender's future. Gazette Sport understands West Ham were in touch with Newcastle regarding Barton prior to the two sides' recent meeting at Upton Park. Barton played in that game, but hip and back injuries affected his performance in a disappointing 3-0 defeat for the Magpies. |Defence| However, Hammers boss Glenn Roeder remains keen to strengthen a defence that leaked five goals at Everton last weekend. Similarly, Charlton showed an interest in taking Barton back to his native London in the summer, though nothing came of that. Former England international Barton became Britain's most expensive defender when he signed for Newcastle from Wimbledon for £4m in the summer of 1995. He is on record as saying he would love to see out his playing days on Tyneside, and also has ambitions of becoming a coach. However, the fact there has been no great rush on Newcastle's part to sit down and talk about a new deal must be a little worrying for Barton. Last season, the Magpies showed no great desire to offer the likes of Stephen Glass and Kevin Gallacher new deals, with both moving on after seeing out the final weeks of their contracts. Barton isn't the only Newcastle star whose future is at the crossroads. For fellow Londoner Robert Lee, now 35, will also be out of contract in the summer.

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

I would rejoice at his departure. Seeing this posting has lifted my spirits so much.

If we actually got money for the guy then even better.

If we reached the realms of nonsense and could use him as part exchange for Carrick or Kinsella then I'd be giggling with tears rolling down my face.

We're not talking about losing Sir Les, or Tino, or Ginola, or Albert, or Clark, or the like. Barton has never been as good as Kenny Wharton who was the ultimate trier, he has been more like a John Anderson, except John Anderson could tackle.

I completely understand some people saying it may be nice to have had him doing a coaching job, but really on what basis do we say that ? The only basis as far as I can see is that he has taken some coaching badges (which IS good, and should be pushed a bit more forcibly at any other in the squad hoping to go down that route) and that he applauds the crowd. He looks very nice when he models the team strips, and will always be better than Bellamy at things like that.

Lets think about the return West Ham game later in the season. Who would you rather Warren was marking Di Canio or Robert ? I am sitting here with a smile on my face just thinking about it.

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

No offense Swifty mate but it really gets on my tits when people say that he always gives it his all and he's a 100%er.

Bollocks! Give me the wages he is on and I will run (sprint even) for the full 90 minutes and I guarantee if I stay out the way of the ball I will have a more positive effect on the game than he ever does and ever will.

Whenever he touches the ball things go wrong. Personally I think if Griffin's injured then we should just play with 10 men, we won't miss the right back posiion cos we've never had anything there for the past couple of years. (<---Sorry I know that's VERY geeky!)

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

I personally think this news is the best Ive heard in a long time. Transfer Barton out and give griffin a chance. Barton will only get worse with age and hopefully Griffin will improve. Bye Bye Bart - eat my shorts!!!

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

Eh? The formtting on this is terrible! I had put Rant and end Rant tags on my post as a laugh but for some reason this BBS has tried to actually put "Rant" tags in to the formatting, never mind!

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

I'd be really sorry to see the guy go. Top professional, and nice blerk - just the kind of character you want to build a squad around.
However, he is very pedestrian these days, and at his age if we could get a decent wedge for him we should let him go.
I'd be happy to give him a massive welcome when he returns to SJP playing for someone else.

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

MacB, you can never say who is going to be a good coach or manager, but there are certain indications that a person might be: a willingness to do the pain in the arse stuff like getting badges is one of them; actually doing some part time coaching (as Warren does) is another; a sensivity to fans' requirements which Warren has is another; being hardworking and doing more than the bare minimum is another; having an eye to commercial possibilities is another (Warren buys NUFC shirts and distributes them to kids in the US on his soccer coaching trips to try to get them to follow United; he visits kids' football clubs in the grey NUFC-SAFC parts of County Durham. Just someone who can really make a meaningful contribution to this club. His clapping is just about showing a bit of respect.

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

I'm with Clarky on this. Barton has always given his all for the club and has been prepared to make a contribution, both on the pitch and off. He has certainly been far more commited than Tino or Ginola ever were and has, over the years, put in some good performances. As he ages, his versatility also means that he will be good cover as a replacement.

I can't understand why people are so agin him. he was no worse than many other players at WHam, yet according to some he was the cause of the defeat.

Hovever, if we're offered decent money for him I think that we should bite their hands off.

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

Bloody good servant for the club, he and Bobby Lee both have been, can't say seeing either leave being a good thing, especially to continue their football careers.

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

If Bartinho is not offered a new contract, I can't us getting much dosh for him - certainly less than £1M. However, the fact that he hasn't been offered a contract yet (true??) would indicate that he won't be. The club seems to have had a policy over the last few years to tie players down to an extended contract before the existing one runs out, thus avoiding a Bosman and/or ensuring a transfer fee should he leave. Unless I've missed something recently (you can call me Al if you like), it could well indicate the end of Wogsie. Unless he's being lined up for a back-room job.

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

Sparxx the only good thing Keegan ever did was sign Warren BArton !!!

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

Before everybody gets carried away, note that the story is "an Alan Oliver Exclusive" - just like "we're gonna sign Andy Cole".........

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

But we did sign Andy Cole, it's just that Alan Oliver took 9 years to spot the story

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

We're all a bit sentimental about wor Warren and Bobby Lee to an extent. Can we afford to keep players who are getting past it, just because they've been loyal servants? man u don't do this do they?

I wouldn't mind him going if we spent the money on a new right full back.

I doubt it will happen. Anyway he could always come back after his playing career has ended. Just adios and not goodbye?

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

Many moons ago when I was sitting with my son watching a humiliating display my lad asked me "who is your favourite player out there". I thought for a few moments and replied "Warren Barton". He was the ONLY player on that pitch who was trying. I'd completely lost faith in Shearer (sorry Clarky... no more injury excuses please.... OR give the benefit of the doubt to Marcelino!) and the rest of the team were marking time. If I had to have a name on my shirt I'd have proudly written B A R T O N

I'd rather see us survive in the Nationwide league with players who WANT to play for us than fanny about in the Premiership with players who can't grasp that they are representing US. I'd love to get to the point where Roberto Carlos would WANT to play for us... and not for the money but that isn't going to happen.

Barton's bad games outnumber his good ones and I'd usually pick Griff ahead of him but he still doesn;t deserve the abuse he gets. That abuse must go to the manager who selects him. If you were picked you would do your best, as does WB. It might not be good enough but it's still not a crime to be shite. The number of threads we get on here about LOYALTY shows that we appreciate that. You are deluding yourselves if you think you can get both loyalty and ability apart from very rare occassions.

I will side with loyalty and be happy with the occassional result when we upset the big boys. I want players to hurt as badly as I do when we lose. We are never going to win anything. It's never going to be wor year.... unless we start breeding players in the academy.... loyalty and ability?

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

Geordie, nice words, but we'll only continue to lose while we have players who have little to offer but commitment.

You have to earn the right to play by matching your oppositions appetite for the battle. Players like Barton can operate at that level, they can match most for commitment. When you have won the right to play you have to then show you have superior skill. Barton has shown consistently that he just doesn't have the skill to play well in the Premiership.

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

I've just picked Ben up from school. I told him that it looked like Barton was being sold and he looked at me in disbelief ... "WHO is going to sign him". Had to smile.

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

Nice bloke , shit football player. I'd be overjoyed if we can get more than a set of training cones and a dozen footballs for him. In fact even if he goes on a free we would be better off. As for all this " he does s much for the community crap. Have you seen how much "Warren Barton's football coaching courses" cost for the bairns?

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

No, how much?

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

Dougal summed up why I appreciate Barton and will be sorry to see him leave. In addition to the things Dougal mentioned he has a travel business located in Durham. The guy loves the area and that can't be bought(as we've shown repeatedly!). But like Gallacher, there comes a time to say thanks and wish him well. If we can get money or part exchange on someone like Carrick, I'd bite their hands off. I would hope he will get a good reception should he return to SJP with another team.

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

"but we'll only continue to lose while we have players who have little to offer but commitment." True :-(

I want skill and commitment but if I have to chose between the two then I'll go with commitment and accept we won't win. I will not accept skill without commitment as we'll lose anyway so why get our hope up?

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

Rik, what's your problem with Warren charging bairns for coaching? NUFC has an academy and summer schemes that are cheaper: Warren is offering a commercial alternative. Good for him.

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

Although it would be a bit sad to see him go, I have to say it could be the start of greater things, meaning Bobby has recognised that Wozza's time has past.

Players giving 100% is no longer the only requrirement in the Premier League (I don't think it ever was even). They need talent as well, which is something that has diminished over the years.

Even with Griffin's bad performance on Sunday, he was still better than many games where Barton played. Although he made two absolute howlers, one was a let off and the other he sprinted back and made a last ditch tackle.

I honestly don't think he is ideal for a coach for us, purely and simply because his tactical skills on the pitch aren't up to scratch.

It will / would be sad to see him go, but it has to happen sooner or later. I am quite thankful that rumours are starting already, although I am surprised that Charlton and West Ham are interested being Premiership clubs.

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

According to mabeth's laws on player-value (for reference see any debate as to the advisability of selling Kieron Dyer), the fact that 2 Premiership clubs have expressed an interest in buying Barton must mean that we should now hang onto him and in fact build our team around him.

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

I´d rather we built our mythical new training facilities around him Softie

;O))

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

Why do people persist with equating a player's performance on the pitch with how well they'll do in management or coaching? Weren't most of the current 'top' coaches and managers formerly average (or worse) players? And what of former star players such as Gullit, Dalglish, etc? Hardly setting the world alight with their managerial abilities.

HOnestly, based on sheer effort and interest Barton is seems a far better prospect for our coaching staff than Shearer, who is practically being handed the job by so many. Even in training, Barton is one of the ones handing out advice (and abuse ;-) ) to other players while Shearer is busy goofing around or hiding from teacher so he doesn't have to do his stretching. I know who I'm more likely to give first crack at a coaching position, if it were up to me.

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

I have no sentiment at all regarding any player within the top leagues if a player receives a career ending injury at a early age , maybe yes, and where do people on here get this job creation policy from, served the team well, (debatable), committed (should go with the territory),he will now come in with the patter, quote "In my time with Newcastle , I have served under four of the most influential managers in the biz", if I have not learned from them there is something wrong, yes my whole future is geared to coaching. Fair enough pal , but do a O`Neil and go to a place like Wycombe , get your time in buddy, this is Newcastle, I want the best now , not an ex-player fresh from a coaching course full of balmy ideas.

We Geordies are too sentimental, ok he is a nice lad, loves the area, so bliddy what, I`m a very nice man,a very nice man who was born a Geordie, loved the area and the patter but had to uproot his family to find work. Make no mistake folks our Woz will touch down shortly in the leafy suburbs somewhere in the Home Counties and will proclaim to his new audience, I enjoyed my time at Newcastle and it will always have a place in my heart, but its good to be back, this may be accompanied by sighs and aghs on here , not me , no way, I have yet to meet going back to KK days a footballing neutral who has not remarked to me when discussing my team, want to get rid of that plank at the back Buff, he is a liability, they cannot all be wrong.

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

I've seen Barton play a few times - home and away.
He has made mistakes - but IMHO he has been one of our best defenders over the last few years (not saying too much I know). His positional play is good, he has made numerous very good challenges and his distribution is fairly good.
Griffin is not very good as a zonal defender- he cannot distribute the ball well - panics when building up from the back. His skill is as a rat-catcher, man-marking a specific target.

There are I fear deeper reasons for the sometimes unreasonable singling out of a floppy haired blond athletic man with a tang of authority about him. Repressed feelings and his unavailability can lead to oubursts from some of even the most rational male members of this BBS. We are listening and sympathetic Board - trust us.

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

I have believed for a few years that we will never win anything with Barton in the first XI. The last couple of years have only strengthened my belief.

Positioning has always been a nightmare, agreeably not helped by Dabizas but he should know better.

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

He doesn't deserve the abuse. He's worked hard for the club and looked sh*te at times because he's been one of the few still looking for the ball when the going has got tough.

The last 18 months he's been covering for Solano who IMHO hides more than Ginola ever did. You knew he was going to do nowt - Solano is supposed to be covering back a bit.

At the only training session I've seen he was involved all the time keeping things going and was THE ONLY one to stay behind at all. He ensured everbody had a picture or autograph before he went across to the rest of the prima donnas. This apparently was typical - these sessions are the places where seeds are sown in bairns heads of the future fan.

Over the last few seasons he's been the only one to consistently acknowledge the crowd until the abuse he got after the Troyes match.

If I had been him then I'd have stuck 2 fingers up to the Toon and gone - I think he was gutted at the booing. He hasn't - he's made himself available despite injuries and played his heart out WHEN YBR has selected him. We all trust Bobby don't we ???

If the rest of the team had tried as hard as him over the last 3 years we wouldn't be where we are now.

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

Personally I am not singling Barton out True, I am drawing attention to the fact that just because he has spent seven committed years with us does not entail him to a back seat and a coaching job, I feel the same about Shearer viz not doing the biz, get rid , Lee falls into this bracket, if he cannot hack the Premier, move on pal, been good while its lasted, there are others, why Elliot was brought in baffles me, u/s if asked to play w/b role, and in a flat back four has not the ability to bring his winger into play. I could go on True but my motto in football is "You gotta be coarse to be Kind", nothing against Woz except at this present moment he can offer the team nothing at all. Having not seen too much of Griffin, it would be wrong of me to comment, except to say the lad has already been pigeonholed as a marker after `The Ginola Job`. Gotta go

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

Buff - yes at this point in time Wozza is an average or even below average full back in a below average defence - although I was very heartened by O'Brien against Liverpool. But we do not have the cover to get rid of him. Elliott and Griffin will need to improve a great deal.
I agree with you that there is no room for sentimentality - but there is room for taking an objective look at our defence and keeping Barton for now.
De Builder - perhaps a brilliant insight i.e. lack of success is down to one player, but then perhaps not.

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

Season	Avg Pts	Barton	Avg For	Barton	Avg Agt	Barton	MinsPld
1995-96	2.05	2.16	1.74	1.81	0.97	0.90	76%
1996-97	1.79	1.88	1.92	2.06	1.05	0.81	37%
1997-98	1.16	1.17	0.92	0.87	1.16	1.17	48%
1998-99	1.21	1.50	1.26	1.50	1.42	1.21	49%
1999-00	1.37	1.35	1.66	1.74	1.42	1.50	84%
2000-01	1.34	1.28	1.16	1.17	1.32	1.45	67%
2001-02	1.57	1.60	1.57	2.00	1.57	1.80	57%
Totals	1.50	1.56	1.46	1.59	1.27	1.26	60%

We win more points, score more goals and concede less goals when Barton plays.

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

Barton has certainly been a good servant to us. Commitment definately, Skill what there was is fading fast. He has played good games and certainly several bad ones. I find it hard to believe other Premiership teams will fork out money for him. If they do we should snap their hands off. As for Manager...I have to agree with buff try Wycombe or some other training ground then if and when you prove how good you are come back and prove your commitment to the Toon.

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

It's not just about raw stats though Softie, there are times when he has been caught short at the back and the other team has failed to take advantage of it, which stats don't show. Look at Man Utd, Ince, McClair, Pallister and Bruce were all kindly shown the door to end their Man Utd playing careers. They all undoubtedly put in a lot of effort for their team, but they were past their best and it was time to move on. If we turn down an offer for Barton we may live to regret it. I hope he isn't holding out for a testimonial.

However, I reckon this story is absolute bollocks, although it's not like the Chronicle starting a rumour to get a non-foreigner out of the club.

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

This has the makings of a complicated issue and as you are all aware I am the guy who can complicate it even more. Josh asks "we all trust Bobby don`t we"? I am not sure if trust is the correct word but at close of play , he is the man , it is his team , playing/attempting to play his style of play in the formation he chooses. For a good while I have emphasisied TEAM on this forum and have very rarely entered into debates concerning one player, either to criticise or applaud. there is a tendency on here to do this and conveniently overlook the team as a whole. For example the acquistion of Bellamy was mainly greeted with derision,the Inter-Toto was good for him,he settled in after a shaky start and now seems to be a favourite ,his pace,enthusiasm for the cause a lone beacon at times. We all cried out for a left sided player for months, Bobby obliged and along came Robert, a good start, instant hero,(we do luv hero`s), has gone off the boil lately, words like disinterested surface, quotes like `sun on his back` and lack of service. I am now convinced that this trait of dissecting individuals and ignoring the TEAM is peculiar to the North East, instant heros can become instant villains overnight.

I have always wanted KK,KD,RG,YBR to PLAN THE WORK AND THEN WORK THE PLAN, apart from a slight glimmer when I thought Dagleish may have that in mind the rest have let me down . To explain my thinking on the books we have, Dabias,O Brian,Distin,CaldwellS,Hughes , 5 in no central defenders , now if the manager wanted to play 3 at the back the choice is there, not brilliant but an option. Then comes the rub, no way can he play that formation, his preferred wingers Solano and Robert in no way it seems will be able to handle a wing back role. So back to 4-4-2 , happy enough with my center backs, full backs distribution to the wingers is found wanting and this aint gonna improve, add this to the fact that the midfield 2 do not seem to be able to dominate a game, change direction or flow of game adds more pressure to the defensive duties of the back 4. Houllier tells Carragher, stick close to Robert, (Griffin-Ginola) ,cut the supply of crosses from Solano, (easy), hit em on the break.

My view is that dear old Newcastle when requiring a player,will go out, try to get the best availible in that role without a thought of whether he will fit in , be compatible to the team as a whole,just another brick in the wall. there is no vision of what we want to do, the method of getting there,we just amble along and hope it comes off

My wish for this season is that we hit the safety points total early doors and for Bobby to plant a seed by intoducing the young players to the first team , ease out the Bartons, Lees, Speeds, Al, it may not be popular with the EPL or other clubs but it may just signify to the fans that Newcastle have a policy at last, I am fed up with the one off buys to fill the holes , oh and btw that clamour for a all purpose midfielder etc, Marc Wilmotts would do the job.

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

I have been consistently horrified by the mediocrity which have been Barton, Lee, Speed and Shearer thro' the Robson reign. All senior pros, all giving a lead to the younger players, all not doing that well enough.

The Man U style is best, they never saw Ince, Pallister, Robson, Cantona, Hughes descend into mediocrity as they sold them just after they peaked, got money for them, and brought in more youthful, hungry versions like Keane, Stam, Yorke and the like.

Barton is the first of our four to look like leaving. I hope not to see the same gnashing and wailing if/when Lee, Speed and Shearer's time comes.

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

I don't think the issue is so much whether we should get rid of senior players no longer able to keep up with the pace. It seems like most people realize it's time to say thanks and good-bye to Barton, Lee, etc. And Buff makes a good point about Barton (or Shearer or whoever) cutting their coaching teeth at a lower league club. I think it's more the lack of respect shown to senior players who have done everything asked of them and more, and not complained or moaned about it. Players displaying the very attitude so many complain about not seeing in more talented players. At least that's the way it looks to me.

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

Softie, Nice work with the stats, interesting - though you could easily use them to suggest that it's time for Bartinho to move on. For instance, in 99/00 Barton was on the pitch 84% of the time, but the following season that dropped to 67% without a noticeable drop in our points tally. Throw in the current season where his contribution is down to 57%, and our points tally has increased considerably.

Stats aside, if we're looking at the long term future of the club we should sell the old guard (with the exception of Shearer, given his managerial ambitions) and look to the future.

-- Anonymous, October 04, 2001

The received wisdom is that Barton is a liability. If that were true then his averages should be lower than those of the team unless he has played in 100% of our games. Not interested in the ifs and buts, I've presented the facts and everything else is just personal opinion, aka prejudice.

-- Anonymous, October 05, 2001

Facts can be twisted in all sorts of ways Softie, and your own stats suggest that we're better off this year than last year with Barton playing less. To suggest that he's good (or bad) just because the team has picked up more or less points when he's in the side is far too simplistic and ignores all sorts of factors. For example, it's not inconceivable that the periods when he was out of the side and the the team wasn't performing also coincided with injuries to other key players. If a player has a shocker but the team still win that doesn't mean he's good, it means the team won in spite of him not because of him. I'm not suggesting this has always been the case with Bartinho, but it illustrates the point that you have to look deeper that statistics or you might as well dispense with a manager and let the Opta stats people pick the side. Using stats alone one could argue that Dalgish did a better job than Robson - finished 2nd, then mid table & took us to a cup final, which clearly reads better than Uncle Bobby's mid-table finishes & no finals. Look beyond the stats and there are clearly other important factors to consider. As for prejudice it's a bit harsh to suggest that everyone is prejudiced against Barton just because their personal opinion is that they don't rate him. Personally I would echo most of the positive comments other people have made about his attitude, committment etc but still think we should sell him, not because I'm prejudiced but because the evidence of my own eyes tells me he's not very good. I suspect you could come to an opposite statistics based conclusion if you were to analyse his individual performance in terms of passing accuracy, times caught out of position, goals given away, missed tackles and times he gets beaten in one-on-one situations. That said, thought the stats analysis was very interesting, wonder how it would come out for other players?

-- Anonymous, October 05, 2001

I can do requests :-)

-- Anonymous, October 05, 2001

Barton does get unfair abuse: we see crap performances all over the pitch but it'll be Barton who will be jeered. Personally, I hope he does go to West Ham to get away from us.

-- Anonymous, October 05, 2001

This story seems to be more classic Ronnie/Journal internecine clap- trap. The Journal this morning suggests that WHU and Charlton simply are monitoring Barton's contractual situation - that is, he is out of contract at the end of the season, and hasn't as yet been offered a new one. This presumably means they are sniffing at the possibility of getting him on a FT if the Toon don't make him an offer.

They conclude that "while Griffin has emerged as a credible rival this season (!), Barton would rather fight for his Magpie's place than move from Tyneside this season".

"I have been consistently horrified by the mediocrity which have been Barton, Lee, Speed and Shearer thro' the Robson reign......"

All I can say to that comment Macbeth is that you must have a very short and highly selective memory - if it hadn't been for the players you continue to villify we would undoubtedly have been plying our trade in the Nationwide right now.

-- Anonymous, October 05, 2001

Roeder's got it right....saying he wouldn't sign him even if he was on a free cos he's shite...

http://www.ananova.com/sport/story/sm_416135.html

-- Anonymous, October 05, 2001

Not so sure Clarky. I probably need Softie to produce stats to prove :0) it but I'd guess that through good and bad times Barton, Speed, Lee and Shearer have been in our side throughout the last 4 or 5 seasons.

I know I am over critcal but really, really how many times have these 4 players produced match winning performances in the last two years ? I suppose you could argue that no one has produced match winning performances over the last two years !! These are the leading four players at our club, most experienced, most Premiership games between them, more than likely the highest salaries too. I am sorry but I expect more from them.

I can accept an off day from Shola or even from Dyer or Bellamy purely because they are 22 or under and still not honed professionals, they will have off days.

A few seasons ago I was nearly alone on here defending Shearer's performances. At the time people were bemoaning his demeanour, his body language etc and I said if they really wanted to see him pissed off they should imagine how he would feel if he was picked as centre half, with no other defenders, and only attacking midfielders in the side. (I liked the though a lot at the time !). Shearer was giving his all despite what was happening around him.

Shearer though has not given us a man of the match performance, which for me means the best blend of skill and commitment since, well since I don't remember when. I accept he was injured for most of last year, but all he did by refusing to step down was stunt the potential of Shola.

Gary Speed and Robert Lee are now journeyman midfielders, we can all see that. We are all desperate for a midfield signing. In Robert Lee's case I find this sad to watch, I'd rather remember as the person scoring three from midfield in an away game in Europe than the plodding slowness he has become. Gary Speed has never done anything for me. He may well be high in the commitment stakes but that only brings hm back to average overall.

Warren Barton is the same. Wonderful commitment, just cannot be faulted for it, but his commitment doesn't even bring him up to being an average Premiership player (although a Mackem pal would still swap him for Kilbane !!). It is possible to be a boring professional full back and still be respected .... Dennis Irwin, Lee Dixon, Nigel Winterburn, even I suppose Stuart Pearce. Barton isn't close to these lot, and they are players that are respected but not great footballing heroes.

Commitment is there for everyone to see. We have instantly fallen for Bellamy, as we did for Gallacher, because of their non stop commitment. Skill is more subjective, so much so that Softie has made his application to be an Opta technician to try and take the subjectivity out of it. The fun in football chat is the differing opinions ..... who was the best Tino or Sir Les, which of Albert, Peacock, Howey was the least worst ? For me Barton in particular has just about survived in the Premiership on commitment. If you play enough games you will have a good one after a while (I saw George Reilly and Ian Stewart score in the same game once), Barton played well against Chelsea, and well against Crystal Palace two years ago in the Cup. It really isn't enough. +++++++++++ Someone mentioned that if other clubs are interested in Barton we should be looking to keep him. Yep can't argue with that. The clarification this morning that they were looking to get him on a free Bosman at the end of the season shows his true worth though :0)

-- Anonymous, October 05, 2001

Shearer has scored a lot of goals for us and can always do a job for us but he is too old to build a team around and we have to start looking at the younger players. He has great dignity and is a great professional and, assuming he proves himself and dose the things that less sainted players do to become managers, may make a great manager. He has erred on occasion - I don't think he comes out of the Gullit thing totally clean. He's always going to be a Newcastle legend but he isn't an untouchable and we'll make no progress as long as he is overplayed (as much YBR's fault as anybody's). Incidentally, I'm a great fan of Shearer's and of his achievements, I just don't really think it's a sin against the Geordie Nation to admit that the man may be mortal.

-- Anonymous, October 05, 2001

Before everybody gets carried away, note that the story is "an Alan Oliver Exclusive" - just like "we're gonna sign Andy Cole".........

Roeder's got it right....saying he wouldn't sign him even if he was on a free cos he's shite... http://www.ananova.com/sport/story/sm_416135.html

Hmmm!

-- Anonymous, October 05, 2001

Macbeth,

I think you'll find the majority on here are in violent agreement with you that AS, RL, GS and WB are best their best.

We have a better RB than WB already in place in Andy Griffin, despite a shaky performance against Liverpool. Hughes is a more than able stand in.

Rob Lee should no longer be the mainstay of our m/f. At 35 he is nowhere near the player he was 5 years ago. However, the fact that is still our best central m/f by the length of Scotswood Rd. - despite us having bought several players to replace him, who have simply not cut it - is the reason we are now struggling to establish dominance in that area of the field. This is something I have been saying for at least two seasons now, while at the same time frequently defending the fairly obvious fact that RL has still been our best central m/f player throughout this period. This situation is a clear failure of management - it is not Rob Lee's fault!

The situation with GS is similar to RL's, except that Speed was never anywhere near as good as Lee. Nevertheless, it is still arguable whether Acuna is a better bet - there isn't much in it imo - but frankly neither of them are really good enough.

Alan Shearer is past his best now, his pace and sharpness blunted by serious injury and over-use. Carl Cort was bought to understudy, and eventually replace him - and has hardly played. In AS and CC's absence through injury, Ameobi has come in and done well, and now provides us with some kind of option. This is just as well as any further injury to AS could finish him, and everyone realises that - hence the Board's interest in bringing AC back. However, Shola is not a natural goalscorer, and if we had to rely on him to fire the bullets over an entire season we could be in serious trouble.

The real problem here is that don't have the financial muscle to buy another Alan Shearer - QED. So, the Toon desperately needs AS to get back to his present maximum effectiveness - whatever that is - and to keep scoring the goals until Shola matures, and young Offiong and Chopra come through.

In summary - saying AS, WB, RL, and GS are shite is unhelpful, does not recognise the true financial situation the Club is in with regard to acquiring 'no compromise' replacements - and your original statement about being "....consistently horrified by the mediocrity which have been Barton, Lee, Speed and Shearer thro' the Robson reign" is grossly unfair and entirely incorrect - these guys unquestionably kept us in the PL during BR's first season, and Alan Shearer's goals took us to Wembley three seasons running.

Let's try to keep our criticism of these senior players, and good servants of NUFC, in reasonable perspective.

-- Anonymous, October 05, 2001

I'm in general agreement. But it's worth noting that they were also the very same players who put us in that position.

-- Anonymous, October 05, 2001

Clarky , I for one dosen't clag Warren Barton in the same catergory as Alan Shearer, Rob Lee and Gary Speed.

Yes, I would have got rid of Barton years ago because I think he's a poor player. Rob Lee was a very good midfielder 5 years ago,but has steadily been going down hill. I think we might get this season out of him but he's looking a bit lethargic. Gary Speed is an average Premiership player, still worth keeping for a couple of more seasons, but we really do need a ball winning central midfielder of International quality to play alongside Dyer in the middle of the park.As for Aln Shearer, he's stil l one of the best strikers in the country. Associating him with Barton is an isult to the man.

-- Anonymous, October 05, 2001

clarky, if i buy your argument that barton, lee speed are the best the club has then what's the manager doing?

i think we'd all agree that they're not good enough for anything more than a lower mid table PL team. the manager has brought in several players who can't get a game ahead of these shite old geezers.

also, the manager has not brought thru any of the young players except when forced to (shola who's done well). what does this say about green kerr mcguffie caldwell etc. they're in their early 20's but can't even get a sniff ahead of the old plodders.

as long as bob sticks with mediocrity we'll be having this gary speed is shite discussion, there's nowt else to talk about, something has to change, maybe the changes will backfire, but we have to try something.

-- Anonymous, October 05, 2001

.... dashing to the piccies, georgeb. I'll respond when I get back.

-- Anonymous, October 05, 2001

Georgeb,

Been to see 'The Score' with Di Niro & Brando - was good; enjoyed it.

Anyway to matters NUFC, as I thought I had indicated in my previous post, I really do think Lee and Shearer are still the best we have in their positions: Speed is perhaps marginally better than Acuna - but neither of them are good enough for a club with pretensions: Griffin is a better defender than Barton, and at 32 I'd look to get WB fixed up elsewhere.

Bassedas was bought to replace Lee, but is nowhere near good enough - we should get rid.

We don't have the money to effectively replace Shearer, and must extract the best that's left in him over the next season or two, and hope that Cort gets himself fit, and that he and Shola can kept things going until either we have some brass or Offiong and/or Chopra come through.

As to the other Reserve squad players:

* I'd like to see Gavilan get a run in the 1st team; however, he recently broke his arm. We must find out if this lad can do it - and if not get rid of him.
* Bernard might make it, although I have reservations. However, we are short of class at LB, and again we must give the lad a chance in the 1st team to see what he's really made of.
* I'm frankly not sure about Steve Caldwell. He's perhaps a bit short of pace for the PL. However, I'd like to see him playing alongside Dabz for a couple of games to better assess him. We need to make a decision on him this season, and if necessary let him go.
* Gary, the younger Caldwell, I like. He's a bit faster than his bro, and a better footballer. He should be knocking on the door towards the end of this season.

Beyond those, the only ones regularly in the Reserve that I feel could conceivably make it, and they certainly aren't ready for the PL, are Ryan McGuffie, and Colin McMenimin. You will note that I include Luax2 as one I don't think will make it.

Frankly, it's not a particularly rosy picture, although there do seem to be some good youngsters perhaps two seasons away - but there again, there always are!

-- Anonymous, October 05, 2001

I have to say that I'm in agreement with most of what you are saying Clarky, in fact pretty much all of it.

However, if Ipswich, who to be fair have a team of players that is perhaps inferior to ours, can finish in fifth (which now looks like a fluke by the way) then surely we can get our players to work as a team and perform. I agree with what someone said either in this post or another, about getting to the safety mark early on and blending the up and coming players into the team. I would love to see Gavilan given a go - he has the best starts / goals ratio out of anyone in the first team under any of the last three matches (2 apps, 1 goal) and could do a job for us. FFS, he plays for Paraguay and has scored a few as well as set up a goal against Brazil, surely he is good enough for our mediocre Newcastle team. Bernard is a similar thing, except he isn't proven on the international scene, just a few fleeting apprearances in the Intertoto.

Carl Cort could possibly do a similar job to what Shearer is being asked to do at present. His winning of headers can't be much worse than Shearer's total of zero against Liverpool, and he has quite a bit af strength most of the time. I know people have said give Shearer time, but for me I can't see him getting anywhere near what we want him to be like. He would be class as a late substitute when we need someone to stick the ball away when the game is stretched, but he rarely creates his own chances anymore, meaning if the wingers don't perform then AS doesn't score. This could change with a creative midifielder who can play nice through balls - the type of thing Veron does for Man Utd. Cort and Bellamy IMHO would be a more productive front line, mainly because Cort can keep up with Bellamy better than Shearer. Until Cort returns however, Shearer is our best option.

But in all honesty, it could be a lot worse.

I mean, there has been a lot of criticism about Dalglish, but against Liverpool there were 5 Dalglish signings in the team and one who he would have signed given the chance - Given, Dabizas, Griffin, Speed, Solano and Shearer

We can all recognise the problems with our team in various positions, but time needs to be taken, sucess doesn't happen overnight (unless you are Liverpool and have a defender called Henchoz with a hand that referees can't see - their five trophies would be reduced to one if THOSE handballs had been spotted)

-- Anonymous, October 05, 2001

Paul, I'm one of Dalglish's biggest critics on here (behind Jonno). However, I agree that he did make dome good signings - perhaps we should have kept him on as Chief Scout. But as a manager, his tactics were appalling, dismanthling totally a veryt successful team. Had he not taken it up on himself to rid us of KK's men and supplemented them with some of his better signings, we could have done a lot better.

I may be wrong, but I don;t think the board were holding the purse strings tightly either. I mean, they've been pretty suportive of all managers in recent years.

-- Anonymous, October 05, 2001

Paul, was Shearer not Keegan's last signing as manager?

-- Anonymous, October 08, 2001

Yes he was a Keegan signing, but I was saying that KD would have signed Shearer given the chance, because they worked together at Blackburn.

-- Anonymous, October 08, 2001

Screach, I wasn't really defending Dalglish in any shape or form, merely stating that some of his signings made up for a large proportion of Bobby Robson's team. BR has bought players that play in all of the positions (apart from GK and right back) yet existing players are played. I haven't got time at the moment to put a full opinion down, but it was more of an observation. I think we are in a transistion period at the moment and it will be a while before we come out of it unfortunately.

-- Anonymous, October 08, 2001

Barton had a woeful first half yesterday, to such an extent that I was sure Hughes would replace him at half time. However, he came on and was actually not too bad in the second half.

-- Anonymous, October 10, 2001

Oh well, 45 'reasonable' minutes against Barnsley should be enough to guarantee his place ahead of Andy Griffin for Saturday!

-- Anonymous, October 10, 2001