I see an awful lot of stupid gung-ho patriotic rednecks lately spouting this attitude that we should "go kick ass", "kill em", "nuke em", and other such knee-jerk reactionary brain farts. Well, these are the same idiots that voted for King Dumbshit, so it doesn't suprise me all that much.

On the slim chance that some of you actually have a few brain cells left, I ask you to STOP and THINK. Put down the beer, turn off the football game, take a deep breath, and THINK for once in your life. Even Dumbya has exhibited some patience in this matter (due to the advice of some better minds on his staff, thank GOD!), so maybe you can too. Slow down, take your time, and think. As long as Dumbya doesn't do anything stupid, we've got all the time in the world to think about this.

This is a whole new ball game. Terrorism is a new kind of warfare. There is no way we can win by conventional means. These guys are hiding. Living right here in our own country. Their methods defy any conventional means of warfare or defense. It is estimated that they could have pulled off the entire WTC attack for $200,000 or less. That's PEANUTS compared to the way WE are used to fighting battles.

Do you REALIZE what else they could do? Do you know how easy and expensive it would be to wipe out say 5 million people in Los Angeles with an Anthrax attack? Poison our water supply or explode a nuclear reactor? There are still hundreds of them waiting within our country to do just such things, and there is no way that attacking them is going to stop it. It would only make things worse, causing an escalation in attacks before we are even prepared for them. Wouldn't it be smarter to find all of the "sleepers" within our country FIRST, then go blow up their foreign operations?

The time has come to take a NEW kind of approach. BRAINS, not BRAWN. DEFENSE, not OFFENSE. The only way to defeat this kind of warfare is by INTELLIGENCE. We need to cut our losses and move forward. ADAPT to a radically changing scenario. Those people that died in NY are history, there is nothing we can do to bring them back. We need to ACCEPT this as a FACT. Then we need to get smart.

Our government is going to have to do some SERIOUS intelligence work right here within our country to find and arrest everyone involved in any kind of plotting of terrorist attacks. They can plot all kinds of things in other countries, but they won't be able to execute anything on our soil if we break off their connections to this country. The American people will need to get used to very intense surveillance in many aspects of their lives, but if you aren't doing anything wrong you've got nothing to worry about.

Going all over the world blowing things up and losing our own soldiers in the process is going to do shit. These are small groups of individuals, they can operate from underground caves. We can't just blow them all up in one fell swoop. We're going to have to find them. It's going to take time, money, intelligence, and PATIENCE. Now is not a good time to piss them off, we're not prepared.

We're going to have to swallow the foolish pride and be smart. I know it goes against your 200 year old traditional animal instinct reactions of beating everything to death until you get your way, but those ways don't work anymore. We need to get things secure on the homefront first, then go out and clean up the world.

We are living in a whole new day and age. Things have changed, and they will never be the same again. Have faith, we can win this thing in the long run if we can prove that we are smarter than them.

-- get prepared (give it time @ patience. is a virtue), September 30, 2001

Answers

“Now is not a good time to piss them off, we're not prepared.”

When I hear this crap it tells me that you have no faith in our country, and for sure no knowledge of our capabilities. I’m confident that our government is doing what is required to protect its citizen’s, within the restraints of the personal freedoms we so covet. You needn’t worry about our enemies being ‘pissed off’; we’ve gone way beyond that. So sit back and wring your hands and behold the resolve of those brave enough to protect your future.

-- So (cr@t.es), September 30, 2001.

Yeah Suckrates, your attitude is typical of the macho-superiority complex in this country. The same attitiude that allowed 7,000 people to get killed. Yeah, we're REAL prepared.

What are you going to do if an airplane flies over your neighborhood in 5 minutes spraying anthrax? What would most of the other blind fools do if a nuclear reactor exploded, spewing radiation for hundreds of miles? The scenarios are endless, and we are about as prepared for them now as we were for the WTC.

Don't think so? Then keep cheering on the King Idiot to go blow up Afghanistan. Then we'll see how prepared we are.

-- (ignorance@is.bliss), September 30, 2001.

And it's one, two, three, whatta we fightin' for? Don't ask me, I don't give a damn, Next stop's Afghanistan And it's five, six, seven, open up the pearly gates, Ain't no time to wonder why! WHOOPIE, we're all gonna die!

-- Captain Kidkiller (allballs@nobrains.com), September 30, 2001.

"The American people will need to get used to very intense surveillance in many aspects of their lives, but if you aren't doing anything wrong you've got nothing to worry about."

Whoa... that sounded like it came straight out of the mouth of a CIA agent. Now don't tell me, uhh... you're pro-totalitarianism and anti- freedom, right?

-- policestate@no.thanks (liberty@once.forever), September 30, 2001.

Nope, I've always been VERY opposed to any kind of invasion of privacy, totally in favor of total and complete freedom as long as you do not harm others. But how else can we find terrorists living right in this country?

-- (either find the terrorists @ or. live in terror), September 30, 2001.

Not that way. Any way but that way. That cure is worse - way worse - than the disease.

-- Freedom (is hard to come by and@way.too.easy.to.lose), September 30, 2001.

Its rather interesting that you throw everyone who is outraged at current events into the "gung-ho patriotic redneck" Category. Just shows how ignorant you are. I live about 2 miles from ground zero in NYC I voted for Bush and I am an investment banker.. I want to "go kick ass", "kill em", "nuke em".

Guess that puts a monkey wrench in your picture does it not?

Now I am off to "put on some grub and polish my pickup truck"

What a moron you are "get prepared"

However people like you are usualy angry white men with small penises.

-- hah (how@funny.com), September 30, 2001.

Its rather interesting that you throw everyone who is outraged at current events into the "gung-ho patriotic redneck" Category. Just shows how ignorant you are. I live about 2 miles from ground zero in NYC I voted for Bush and I am an investment banker.. I want to "go kick ass", "kill em", "nuke em".

So you want to use nukes but are not a redneck; and this means.....?

With logic like this no wonder the bankers have taken us to the abyss!

-- Will (righthere@home.now), October 01, 2001.

"I live about 2 miles from ground zero in NYC I voted for Bush and I am an investment banker.. I want to "go kick ass", "kill em", "nuke em"."

Just goes to show you... "You can take the boy out of the country, but you can't take the country out of the boy"!

Any asshole with a high school diploma can get a job as an investment banker, big fucking deal. You may not live in the country or consider yourself a redneck, but you just proved you've got shit for brains.

-- (yeah right @ just. nuke em!), October 01, 2001.

"Any asshole with a high school diploma can get a job as an investment banker, big fucking deal".

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

So it must be the lack of said diploma that's keeping you from that career, is that it?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Loser.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), October 01, 2001.

BWAAAAAHAHAAAHAHAAAA!!!

We were right about him being a REDNECK! It's JJ the inbreed redneck runt!!

Go shoot some racoons Mr. No Balls, you'll never make it as a black New Yorker!!

LMAO!!!

-- (hee hee hee @ jboy is a. gayboy), October 01, 2001.

And Get Prepared, I'm sure you are the one with all the brains and the others of us out here that want to see blood and revenge are the opposite? God I hate anonymous cowards. If you were in the majority there wouldn't have been a flag raising on Iwo Jima. The Japanese Imperial Army would have met Hitler in the middle of Kansas and shipped your sorry ass off to the concentration camps in Colorado. We might have a biological gas attack or get nuked anyway without a early retaliation but you would sit there like the pacifist coward that you are and let somebody else take the bullet that had your name on it. Thank God most in this country don't think and react like you. Those boys on Mt. Suribachi probably didn't have Bachelors Degrees but they went up there anyway and saved you yellow whiny ass!

-- Boswell (fundown@thefarm.net), October 01, 2001.

Might as well save your breath Bos, these weenies are ‘out of reach’ and have no fear of retribution. They feel secure here on the net to say all manner of foolishness that would never escape their lips in public. The really good news is ‘we ain’t them’.

Now is the time for BALLS, not BAWLING!

-- So (cr@t.es), October 01, 2001.

"They feel secure here on the net to say all manner of foolishness that would never escape their lips in public."

You mean like YOUR first reply on this thread Suckrates? Yeah, it's pretty foolish, that's for sure.

-- (too many brainfarts @ escaping. your buttlips), October 01, 2001.

Socrates, we weren't ready for the declaration of war last month. If we had been, we'd have had decent security at airports and passengers who understood what the stakes were before they allowed themselves to be killed by guys with box knives. Now that we know ransom isn't the objective, we are free to fight back.

And yes, if necessary, I would throw my own precious self on the knife to tie it up while my cohorts subdue the guy. I might even live through it. :)

-- helen (to@the.death), October 01, 2001.

Well well, looks like you people are emotionally challenged.

Guess I am too stupid huh? Guess I make too much money. What a bunch of strange people ya got here unk. They would rather rip me apart than jump the motherfuckers who did this to my city.

Sad.. Probably a bunch of hippie draft dodgers. Most of that type displays this kind of anger. You people are fun to screw with however.

Oh well, Off to cash another check. You know those right.. the Govt sends you yours weaklings.

-- Will (will@assholeshere.com), October 01, 2001.

Boz, Socrates, Will: Have any of you buttwipes ever served a single day in uniform? Are any of you planning to? I'm just wondering. Somehow I very much doubt it...typical pseudo-patriotic pud-pounder wannabe's...

-- Zzzzz (asleep@the.wheel), October 01, 2001.

"Guess I am too stupid huh?"

Based on your comments, I'd say that is a very STRONG possibility. You might want to work on that. Did it ever occur to you that if we go blowing up Afghanistan they could blow up more American cities? Duuuuh.

"Guess I make too much money."

Too much money to be stupid? Naaah, lots of idiots make too much money. Just look at our Idiot in Chief, he is a good example. Money does not solve ALL problems, sometimes it helps to have a brain.

-- (wake up and smell the anthrax @ you. fool), October 01, 2001.

anonymous coward,

Has it ever occurred to you that they could blow up more American cities, regardless of what we do to Afghanistan?

"Duuuh", indeed.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), October 01, 2001.

Zzzzz….

I generally avoid getting into ‘personal’ confrontations with Internet phantoms, as there is no point going mano a mano with that which does not really exist. In your case, I’ll make a small exception in the hopes that your attitude comes around a little bit.

I’m 60 years young and spent 10 very good years in the United States Navy, 18 months of that in a place we all know and love. Although I’ve calmed done somewhat, I still enjoy getting physical and don’t mind breaking heads when necessary. I suspect that my background qualifies me to comment on military actions, and the consequences, far more than you.

This is not a time for whimpering pacifists to climb on their soapboxes. We are up against some people who understand only one thing, and it ain’t flower-sniffing pussies that want to meet around the campfire. But rest easy Zzzzz, while you are in angst over what might happen next, strong Americans with a kick-ass attitude will keep you safe.

You know, I’ve managed to work myself into a real nice life but right now I wish I were back in uniform. Guess I’ll have to settle for the occasional opportunity to put pukes like you on a soft food diet. Wanna take a shot?

-- So (cr@t.es), October 01, 2001.

"Has it ever occurred to you that they could blow up more American cities, regardless of what we do to Afghanistan?"

Of course idiot, they could do that any time. But the odds are a LOT greater that if we attack them they will counterattack.

Has it ever occurred to you that instead of wasting so much time and energy on revenge, we should be preparing to protect ourselves at home first?

Double DUUUUUUH on you, you stupid fuck.

-- (stupidity should @ be. a crime), October 01, 2001.

Socrates, some reporter from ABC showed pictures of the WTC to people in Afganistan. They had never seen magazines. They didn't know about the attack. They didn't know buildings could be so high. They expressed sympathy for our loss.

They didn't know what happened. They won't understand being attacked for it. Terrorists should be thwarted, yes, but these people are not terrorists. Most of them are barely alive.

-- helen (flower@sniffing.WHAT), October 01, 2001.

Well Helen, those poor ‘innocent’ Affies need to find a good cave when the shit hits the fan. Or, they can head up north and assist the alliance in ridding their country of the scum known as the Taliban. Or, in the spirit of the American Revolution, they can rise up and re- take the country. I have no tears for these people after watching over 6000 Americans slaughtered. Time to focus on the problem, not find a reason not to act. If their lives are so destitute, then the ones that survive will be much better off and the ones that don’t will too.

Our priorities are to protect all Americans as best we can, eliminate ALL terrorists, and then worry about those that are left.

In That Order.

-- So (cr@t.es), October 01, 2001.

Socrates, they can't fight if they don't have food.

-- helen (future@relief.worker), October 01, 2001.

Darwinism in action Helen.

-- Jack Booted Thug (governmentconspiracy@NWO.com), October 01, 2001.

Socrates: "Do I wanna take a shot? You bet! You say: :I suspect that my background qualifies me to comment on military actions, and the consequences, far more than you." Fuck you. Check out my own "credentials" here, big mouth:
http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=006Xj1 Then, listen up, o' noble "warrior": I've known a lot of fine Navy guys that served both "on shore" and off, during Viet Nam (since I was there myself, on the ground) and I'll never say a bad word about them. But I have the distinct feeling that you did not serve on land, or anywhere near any real fighting - but most likely in some nice comfy little boat somewhere WAY off shore, if you were ever there at all. People that were "on the dirt" over there DO NOT talk the crap you talk, "sailor". You're a REMF, if ever there was one, I'll bet. And if you're not, you ought to have more sense. You're either dumber than a box of rocks and nothing from your experiences, or you're on the fast track with Alzheimer's, pal. You of all people should be warning these kids who have never known a real war in their entire lives just what a war without clear objectives and goals always turns into. And if you'd like to write to me about this personally, please feel free, Rambo... cyberscribe@chartermi.net

-- Zzzzz (asleep@the.wheel), October 01, 2001.

anonymous coward,

You said, "But the odds are a LOT greater that if we attack them they will counterattack".

Do you mean like the way that they "counterattacked" the WTC and the Pentagon, you spineless, gutless, cowardly little eunuch?

The ONLY way that the odds of them attacking again will be reduced is by hunting them down and exterminating them like the cockroaches that they are.

Now be gone; the stench of your fear is nauseating.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), October 02, 2001.

Don't waste your time on Socrates, he's obviously just another one of those blowhard gung-ho psuedo-patriots that doesn't have a fucking clue what he is talking about. It's easy for him to sit on his fat ass in his EZ Boy chair in front of his boobtube and spew all kinds of gung-ho rhetoric, as long as he doesn't have to be the one on the front lines.

-- LOL (what@pathetic.putz), October 02, 2001.

Oh, btw... "there is no point going mano a mano with that which does not really exist"

Why don't you give me your "real" email address, braun for brains mano?

Eh? I thought not...

-- Zzzzz (asleep@the.wheel), October 02, 2001.

We have been invaded and our home land has been attacked and the enemy is among us in our country. We will be attacked again on our soils regardless of what counterstrike we enforce upon them. But they WILL hit us again unless we do something very unpopular. During WW11 we inturned all Japanese in this country because they could not be distinguished from those that would do us harm. It was the right thing to protect this country. Even German speaking Americans were detained at length. And this is what we need to do now to protect this nation. To hell with the ACLU and being politically correct. Being PC is what brought some of this shit on anyway. Clinton replaced white guys that knew their job in the CIA with minorities and women because it was a SIGN OF THE TIMES. Now that group doesn't have a clue about what's happening around the world. Lock all of these Arabs up and put them behind a fence untill this is over. Until then, nobody will know when one is walking down the street of LA spreading Anthrax or has one of them Nuclear Suitcases in his left hand ready to go off in the middle of Chicago. And I did my military time so why don't all you pacifists take a flying leap thru a rollin donut and suck my nuts!

-- Boswell (fundown@thefarm.net), October 02, 2001.

"The ONLY way that the odds of them attacking again will be reduced is by hunting them down and exterminating them like the cockroaches that they are."

Hey stupid fuck, in case you haven't heard, the attack on the WTC was launched from within our country. How is blowing up Afghanistan going to stop the terrorists that are still living here, ready to attack again? HUH? STUPID FUCK??

-- (you should be executed @ for. the crime of utter stupidity), October 02, 2001.

Actually...Soc has a pretty nice ass.

-- (not@tellin.), October 02, 2001.

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

"Civilized" people don't just proceed to kill others (any others) without legitimate justification backed up by incontrovertible evidence; or at least they shouldn't. When we do that we've lowered ourselves to their level, and that's all we've accomplished.

One of the biggest dangers, here, is that we nail the wrong guy(s), and the real perpetrators get off scot free, or that we take out OBL and some of his 'known' followers before we really ferret out his entire support network, isn't it?

Some of you people really need to get a grip on your childish, spoiled brat addictions to "instant gratification". Maybe even realize: nobody "owes" you one fucking thing, in that regard, hey? Grow the hell up.

Killing people without legitimate justification backed up by incontrovertible evidence already has a name: MURDER.

People that practice indiscriminate murder, under the guise of patriotism, are not called "Patriots", they are called "a bloodthirsty vigilante mob".

Lars said in another thread: "As far as "evidence", this is not simply a crime, this is war."

Bullshit. It's beginning to become clearer by the day that the Taliban is not a legitimate recognized government, in any real sense of the word. It's just a band of opportunistic zealots that happened to seize that 'title' in the power vacuum left behind following the failed Soviet onslaught and withdrawl.

Now, as a soldier, I call it "war" when we're up against a legitimate recognized government and it's military forces. If we're fighting a non-governmental entity such as a group or an organization (i.e. OBL, Taliban, Al-Quida) it's rightly called a "police action" when the military becomes involved (remember Manuel Noriega in Panama, and his drug connections, even tho he was El Presidente?). That lack of a recognized "government" behind this makes this a "crime", not a "war".

The truth of this will surely be borne out by our own future actions, as our "police agencies" around the world carry out the vast bulk of the effort in this new "police action".

No lawful and self-respecting soldier is going to go out and murder anybody just to slake you fucking armchair hero's lust for the blood of "instant gratification" attacks on anybody, anywhere, for any reason, just so you fat lazy fucks can "feel better", got it?

And to those like the fierce Socrates and Boswell and Will, let me restate my credentials, so that you can know what I found my opinions on: I'm a US Army Ranger and paratrooper, with my first combat experience in Viet Nam and my last in Desert Storm. I can verify this through others in this forum who know me personally.

And I'm tired of listening to idiots like you talk pure, 100% shit.

-- Zzzzz (asleep@the.wheel), October 02, 2001.

anonymous coward,

You really can't be as stupid as you appear, for you appear to be too stupid to be able to avoid traffic.

In case you haven't noticed, many people in this country have already been arrested or detained, and I am sure that more will be also. That is one way that the risk of another attack being launched against us is reduced. Another way that it is reduced is by going after the source of the problem, which includes Osama bin Laden, and most likely will include others, as well.

Attacking Afghanistan may not directly stop those that are already here from attempting to try another attack. However, attacking Afghanistan may indirectly stop them from attempting another attack, especially if they are waiting for Osama to: give the order, or arrange financing, or provide intelligence, or coordinate cells, etc. It will be hard for him to do these things if, with his head, he catches a hollow point from a special forces sniper rifle, or if the mountain above the cave that he is in collapses on top of him.

Also, by exterminating the terrorists in Afghanistan, we increase the odds that the little cockroaches won't be able to migrate into our country. Last that I checked, not a single dead terrorist has hijacked a plane.

Now that I have explained in detail why it is imperative that we exterminate terrorists abroad, please try to explain to me why you insist that the cowardly, "don't kill them, we'll only make them mad" is a viable alternative.

By the way, you saying, "Because I am a gutless little coward and I'm afraid", doesn't cut it.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), October 02, 2001.

J,

This thread is about brains not brawn. Just trying to help you focus. ;)

-- Jack Booted Thug (governmentconspiracy@NWO.com), October 02, 2001.

LMAO!!

Don't give up your day job to be a military strategist J, you SUCK at it!

First you say "nuke em!" and 3 weeks later you finally realize that they are in OUR country!

-- (if brains were dynamite @ you. couldn't blow your nose!), October 02, 2001.

Jack Booted Thug,

Don't fall for the worn out trick of letting the other side define the debate for you. To do so would be to accept the premise of "brains not brawn" that is put forth in the thread title. I reject that premise as faulty. Brains and brawn is much more appropriate, for the two are not mutually exclusive, except perhaps in the eyes of an anonymous coward.

Thanks for the input, though.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), October 02, 2001.

pathetically stupid anonymous coward,

I don't have a day job. I am independently wealthy. You, however, should get to bed soon or you will be too tired tomorrow to put the frozen french fries in the hot grease.

It must be terribly difficult for you to only be semi-literate. You see, imbecilic cretin, I never said first to "Nuke them!", only later to "finally realize that they are in OUR country". That only occurred in the inhalant riddled Swiss cheese that masquerades as your brain. When you can discuss that which I actually said, instead of some chemical induced hallucination of yours, then we can proceed.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), October 02, 2001.

"I don't have a day job."

LOL, we already KNEW that dumbass! No one in their right mind would employ a tabacky-chewin gun-totin paranoid mentally deficient inbreed runt like you!

"I am independently wealthy."

ROTFLMAO!! Yeah, that's a goodun there Jethro! Ya gits that disability check for being mentally deformed every week! As long as ya can buy some more powder for yer gun so ya can go out and git sum possum fer dinner, yer rich beyond your wildest dreams!

-- (hee hee hee @ haaaw. haaaw haaw!!), October 02, 2001.

anonymous coward,

I see that you are huffing glue again, french fry boy. It must really tear you up inside to realize that I am wealthy enough to do exactly as I please, while you have to throw frozen potatoes into hot grease, all the while answering to some college bound high school kid who possesses two things which you do not: an ability to manage, and a future.

If it makes you feel any better, I have a horrendous tax burden that has been placed on me by liberal do-gooders who think that my successes should somehow be transferred to dregs like you. All things considered, I can't complain, though. At least I'm not you.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), October 02, 2001.

Check your mail.

-- So (cr@t.es), October 02, 2001.

Personally J, I'm glad the government is using part of my taxes to give you a disability check every week. We all know what happens to you inbreeds if you're left to fend for yourselves, like your cousin Ted Kaczynski. You'd never be able to get a job with your 43 IQ level, and would inevitably become a menace to society.

Gotta admit I do feel some pity for you though, it wasn't your fault your Dad was a lowlife bastard and your sister was a whore. I saw a program on TV about some of your relatives out there in the Ozark Mountains. It's a pathetic life but it's not your fault you were born out in the woods, too far from a school to get an education and learn that you aren't supposed to have sex with your relatives. Jeezus, those inbreeding deformities are a bitch!

Just think, if your Dad had only stayed faithful to his wife instead of fucking your older sister/mother, you might have been born with balls like a normal man! What's it like to have a dick so small that you have to carry a gun everywhere to feel like a man? Do you ever get tired of eating possum every night, or have you figured out how to kill other critters too?

-- (don't worry J @ we liberals have sympathy. for your kind), October 02, 2001.

anonymous coward,

I see that the combination of french fry grease and airplane glue fumes has finally caused you to snap. You are so warped that you are confusing the wretched details of your own pathetic life with that of a highly successful, contributing member of society like myself.

WARNING to all kids out there: do not mess with inhalants, or you could end up like this anonymous coward.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), October 02, 2001.

Here's the CIA's factbook on Afghanistan, y'all. For those disputing the nature or existence of a government there, see that section.

Afgha nistan

-- Eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), October 02, 2001.

ZZZZ a paratrooper or RN which is it?

"I spent seven years as an RN (that's a registered nurse), I know my aerobes from my anaerobes, and I know you obviously don't have a clue about hybrid weaponized bugs,"

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), October 02, 2001.

Zzzzz said: "I'm a US Army Ranger and paratrooper, with my first combat experience in Viet Nam and my last in Desert Storm."

Zzzzz quoted by Maria: ""I spent seven years as an RN (that's a registered nurse)..."

Maria asked: "ZZZZ a paratrooper or RN which is it?"

Criminy, Maria. Why not both? Nothing on earth prevents him from being both a registered nurse and a paratrooper.

Zzzzz cited his last combat experience as the Gulf War. That was more than a decade ago. Which leaves more than enough time for him to leave the military and be an RN for seven years, with several years to spare.

But I consider it a lot more likely that Zzzzz is a reservist who was called up for Desert Storm. He could have been an RN any time from the late 1970s up to a month ago and it wouldn't call his combat experience into question.

-- Little Nipper (canis@minor.net), October 02, 2001.

Not only that, he was also a floor polish AND a dessert topping.

-- (what@i.think), October 02, 2001.

LN thanks for your interpretation, LOL

ZZZZZ never mind; as I wrote on the other thread, I don't give a shit about you.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), October 02, 2001.

Well Zzzzz, see how easy it is to make new friends here?

-- So (cr@t.es), October 02, 2001.

Maria you are a Nipwad.

-- Jack Booted Thug (governmentconspiracy@NWO.com), October 02, 2001.

You know J, I am really sick of your insinuations that people who work in fast food are mentally inept and all-around losers.

You know, my teenage son has worked these jobs, and he is not mentally handicapped J. Get off your friggin high horse already.

-- (the world@according. to J), October 02, 2001.

Well, for what it's worth, my position has actually been to primarily focus on changing the supporting "government" (yes -- I use the term loosely) permanently to a free one and secondarily (or in conjunction with the former) exterminate the terrorists.

You'll never eliminate them all, but you'll reduce the breeding ground, and the next group of terrorists or supporting government who have something in mind might just think twice when they know they're practically guaranteed to all not only end up with one less government as a result, but it'll be yet another free one.

And I don't accept the "brains vs. brawn" dichotomy either. The mind and body work together, right or wrong. It's really a case of "rational or irrational."

-- Eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), October 02, 2001.

Very well said Eve.

-- So (cr@t.es), October 02, 2001.

yet another anonymous poster,

I never claimed that your teenage son was deficient because he worked at fast food places. On the other hand, if he's still dunking frozen french fries in hot grese when he's in his thirties, then I will have to reassess the situation.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), October 02, 2001.

J, didn't we have this conversation already?

-- helen (dej@vu.j), October 02, 2001.

helen,

Yes, pretty much.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), October 02, 2001.

I don't know what's sadder, "J" beating that worn out "anonymous coward" schtick like it was actually relevant, or "J" claiming to be independantly wealthy as though it proved anything at all.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), October 02, 2001.

Welcome back Tarzan.

-- Jack Booted Thug (governmentconspiracy@NWO.com), October 03, 2001.

LOL! J is "independently wealthy"!

Yeah, he gets his social security check every week. For someone whose lifelong goal for retirement is to sit in front of a computer, I guess he would think he is wealthy!

-- LOL (J is @ loser.), October 03, 2001.

Thanks JBT. It's good to be back.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), October 03, 2001.

LN - Thank you.  Same-same Kelly and the rest of you that commented and supported me so kindly during this "flame war" Maria began with me.

Maria - You are a sad, sad example of an "American". You started this crap with this:

"ZZZZZ you sound like Phil Donahue...(your patronizing banter leaves me feeling putrid) -- Maria (anon@ymous.com), October 02, 2001. "

When I pointed out to you that I thought I had a right to disagree, since both I and my son may find ourselves actually fighting this next war, Your Brilliance came up with this:

"You're making lots of assumption about what I think on the war. But make no assumptions on this one; I don't give a shit about you or what you think or your stupid son. Thanks for your time. -- Maria (anon@ymous.com), October 02, 2001"

Then, you proceeded to attack not just me, but every American and past and present veteran in this entire country with this really brilliant post:

"I know for a fact that an Army paratrooper doesn't require any intelligence. The criteria for paratroopers do not include even decent grades or a college education. So, I'll guess that our little vet here has a lower than average intellect. -- Maria (anon@ymous.com), October 02, 2001."

You're obviously way too psychotic to let this whole matter just drop - you continued to dredge thru the old posts and came up with my [stated] past experience as an RN and tried to use that to infer that I can't be "telling the truth" about having served (volunteered actually) in both Viet Nam and Desert Storm.  Then you go and post that to another thread altogether.

Okay - I've had quite enough of you, Maria, and I'm going to clarify a few things, for you and some of the other regulars here.  I would do this privately, via email, but you're too chickenshit to post a real email address (tho I'm sure somebody here has one on you and will share that with me soon enough), so I'll just do it right here.

I've been posting here on Unc's for about three weeks now.  I'd never heard of this place before then, and I'm not one of the "old Y2K" regulars.

I had sent a semi-personal email to my little brother (and a few other close friends) in the midst of the WTC/Pentagon attacks.  He liked it, apparently, and asked me if I would mind if he shared it with a "few people", and I said "Sure, no problem".  I had NO idea that he was going to post it here at Unc's, but that's what he did, the little shit.

My little brother goes by the name Bemused (and_amazed@you.people) (and I'm sure he's cringing and cussing now that I've 'linked' myself to him, and will never want to post under that moniker again - sorry little brother).  My original "posted" email is still in the forum archives here.   Maria - you can also find my email address there, if you have the guts to ever use it - feel free.

I mention this only because Maria (and a few others) have as much as called me an outright liar, and it's the only "proof" I have (or should need) of my claims.   Maybe you'll take the word of an old "regular" here, if you won't take mine.

Little Nipper - you are exactly right. I enlisted and "volunteered" to go to Viet Nam right after I graduated from HS.  I was only 17 when I graduated and enlisted; and I was sent, by the Army, to Ranger Training partly (it's strictly volunteer, too) to pass the time until I turned 18, since you can't serve in a combat zone as a "minor".

And Maria: trust me or do your own research - the Army's Ranger School is the hardest school to get into (and pass)in the entire Army, it's generally held - and you have to score in the 98%+ percentile on all the military entrance exams, and be in supremely excellent physical condition, to even qualify to try for a rare and precious slot in that school.  It's considered one of the greatest honors in the Army to earn and wear the Ranger Tab.  FYI: Colin Powell also wears it, as do all the highest Army brass.  And, also, Maria; you have to first qualify and pass the Army's Airborne (Parachutist) School before you can even apply for Ranger School - and "Jump School" is no gimme either, let me tell ya.

Anyway - Viet Nam kicked my ass, and I won't deny it.  And coming home, so proud, in my Army uniform - only to be spit on, attacked and shunned by good "patriotic American's" just like you, Maria, kicked it even harder.

At the ripe old age of 20 (too young to even buy a beer or vote yet) I got out of the service and went to college on the GI Bill.  And following that I spent several years working as an RN in surgery (exclusively) in our Regional Trauma Center - becaused I liked the mental challenges and the intensity of the job, and also because I wanted to try my hand at healing people, instead of killing them. I guess you might even call it an attempt to heal myself.

A friend of mine eventually (it took a few years) talked me into going back into an Army Reserve unit here.  They wanted me to be an RN there, too (that's a college degree'd "Officer" rank position, Maria) but I didn't want to do, on drills, what I already did at work in my civilian job, and I'd always been a "combat arms" soldier, so I took the only other choice in this locality - we had an Armor unit here (tanks) and I became a tanker.  I became a very good tanker, in fact.  I'm a Master Gunner (the highest qualification you can get in Armor) and outshot and outfought every "active duty" tanker I competed against in annual training every year - and they put us up against the very best Tankers in the Army All Armor Competition at Graefenwohr, Germany every year.  I had the highest qualification scores as a Tank Commander for two years running just before Desert Storm began.

When Desert Storm came around my Reserve unit was not called up - but I personally requested (volunteered) to be put back on Active Duty (Federalized) and sent to the Gulf War with a combat Armor unit - since it was a "tank war" and they needed as many good, experienced men as they could get; and they took me (I got the call on a Friday that I had two days to say goodbye to my family and report to Ft Knox, KY for assignment to an armor unit in the Gulf that following Monday).

Maria, let me tell you just one little part of that whole experience.  A very few close friends of mine from my armor unit were also granted active duty volunteer requests (we were a "crew" together).  We went together to Ft Knox to get our gear issued and to be given our unit assignments to the Gulf.  In one of the initial breifings my friends and I asked "Will we be assigned together when we get to Saudi Arabia? We've crewed together for years and know each other so well, and work together as a team so well..." and we were told (and this is as near verbatum as I can be) "You guys are casualty replacements...when you get there here's what's going to happen: somebody will point to a "battle damaged" M1A1 Abrams tank that welders will be busy welding metal plates over the holes in, and you will be told to get in, scrape the brains and blood and charred body parts of your "predecessors" out of the turret, get your vehicle and yourselves ready, and get it back into action as soon as possible."

Now, Maria, I'd appreciate it if you would just lay off.  I'm asking nicely.   Just once.

If you should choose not to, I'm going to take your own words of total disrespect for me, as a soldier - and of disrespect for EVERY American soldier - and I'm going to post them (with your email, phone and home address) to the internet in every place I know of that "vets" and soldiers visit.   Let's just see you defend those words to thousands (or tens of thousands) of American vets and soldiers, or even try.

I will find out your email address and your HOME address and your home phone number, and let all of them "have at you".  Do you understand?   If you don't think I can, or that I won't, just try me, lady...you'll never regret messing with anybody as much in your entire life as you'll regret messing with me now, I promise you.  I do not want to hear another word from you ever again, in this matter.

You have been warned.  You stepped over the line, Maria, WAY over the line, and   it's time to back up and back down, or you'll be wishing to God you had, soon enough.

The rest of you: I don't expect anything from you, personally.  But I will ask that you don't stoop to Maria's pathetic level and demean and belittle the incredible sacrifices of those that serve you so selflessly in this dangerous world.  Not if you expect them to continue to.

-- Zzzzz (asleep@the.wheel), October 03, 2001.

I see we are all going through the different stages of grief. Disbelief, questioning why, anger.......

-- Cherri (jessam6@home.com), October 03, 2001.

"The mind and body work together, right or wrong."

I think you are taking the brain vs. brawn idea a bit to literally. The concept is referring to the approach we should take, not separating the body from the mind. We can let ourselves be guided by our more primal instincts (revenge, survival, kill), or we can keep those instincts in check and reason out the most intelligent course of action.

It's not an either/or dichotomy of opposites as you suggest, such as, either we will use our muscles, or we will use our brains... it is a matter of how much time we will allow to be satisfied that we have completed a thorough reasoning process before we decide to take any physical action.

"It's really a case of "rational or irrational."

Not sure I follow you. I don't think any response would be considered irrational, given that we were attacked. Our response will definitely be rational, but we should think about whether we want to simply react in an animalistic fashion or consider what is going to serve us best in the long run.

I am satisfied so far that our government seems to be taking enough time to reason things out, but I think that very soon they will give in to the urge to act in a habitual manner which may not be in our best interest in the long run.

-- (time @ is. on our side), October 03, 2001.

time,

I don't disagree with your points, except for the following:

On our "primal instincts" -- well, I don't see that we have any "primal instincts" whatsoever. You might be referring to our emotional reactions, though, in which case I think, while we shouldn't act on our emotions alone, they can tell us important information about our relationship to things or events. Emotions are lightning-like responses (so they might seem like instincts or representing instincts) to something we understand and evaluate as in some way as for us or against us. But in order to discern this, we need to try to take some time to analyze and introspect -- even if all we have is a matter of split seconds.

Then you said,

"I don't think any response would be considered irrational, given that we were attacked."

Oh, but there certainly can be. An example of an irrational response would be embarking on genocide of all arabic peoples -- innocent or not. If you still don't agree, then we should get into defining our terms (e.g., "rational") before we go further, so that we know we're on the same playing field.

-- Eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), October 04, 2001.

Your so worried about what could happen to your insignificant little liberal life; so worried about an "anthrax attack" which, even if it came would prove no more than a nuisance, that you don't think about the people whose lives were forever altered by the events on sept 11. You are the kind of person who has never seen the need to serve in the military, RIGHT? If your forefathers were more like you I doubt we would still be speaking english. You embarrass yourself. Let me guess, you never got in fights, you walked away..... Have you ever stood up for yourself? Have you ever defended anyone? I've done it every day for the last EIGHT years. I do it along with the thousands of others in the military so you have the freedom to express your pathetic ideals. Besides, do you think Bin Laden is going to just stop ......?

-- STS2(ss) Maddox Johnathan W. (jmad74@SDinsider.com), November 21, 2001.

Hey Maddox, you get your jollies blowing up innocent civilians, eh? How come you guys didn't have the balls to go in there on foot? You let the Northern Alliance do the dirty work. How come you didn't get Bin Laden you pussy? Just as I expected, you're all mouth and no balls.

-- (go kiss Dumbya's ass @ you. loser), November 21, 2001.