Mr. Esa Harma, posted this comment on a Leica page From the www.photo.net Web site at this address: http://www.photo.net/photo/leica/m6, and he said: I was able to play with the whole Leica product family in Photokina 1998 and it made me to choose the Contax G2+21+35+90 set because:

(i) I am using my left eye for viewfinding and I also have glasses. Therefore I just cannot place my eye close enough to the Leica viewfinder in order to see the largest bright line frame in 0.72x or 0.85x making M6 effectively a 50/90/135mm system camera for me. And my favourite lens is 35mm.

(ii) I had great difficulties in using the focussing with 50mm Summilux ... somehow I was now always able to quickly adjust the frames on each other [etc., etc.].

Too bad! It appears I'm in the same situation: left-eye dominant + glasses (not too bad: left eye -1,25, right eye -1,50, 0,75 astigmatism). But in order to buy an M6 TTL, which kind I should choose? Main #1 photog heroes are Cartier-Bresson and Sebastiao Salgado (so 28-35-50 mm, am I right?) - Many many thanks - ciao, Marco.

-- Marco Maria Colombo (mcolombo@iol.it), September 30, 2001

Answers

Same answer as to your other question: you need to go to a store or find someone who has Leica (and maybe now Contax G2 also!) and try them out for yourself. You would not ask someone else to choose a suit or shoes or an automobile for you...you must see for yourself.

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), September 30, 2001.

Main #1 photog heroes are Cartier-Bresson and Sebastiao Salgado (so 28-35-50 mm, am I right?)

Well don't let that make your decision for you. Unless you are one of those guys, it isn't go to make your decision right.

Regarding left-eyed, at least it isn't a Mamiya 6. They put the PC socket just to the right of the viewfinder. If you were left-eyed and had a PC cord in it, it stuck right into your right eye. Fortunately, they moved the PC socket on the 7.

-- Jeff Spirer (jeff@spirer.com), September 30, 2001.

We have said here over and over, that Range finder cameras in general are not for everyone. People buy them mail order without ever having one in their hands, and then they don't give themselves any time to learn how to use a very different kind of camera. Then you end up with comments like the one from Mr. Harma, and some really nice clean used equipment on the market. No one here knows for sure if you will be succesful using a Leica camera or find it difficult to use.

The .58 finder M6 is the one designed for 28-35-50 use, so that would be a good start.

By the way, I am totally left eye dependant on camera focusing, and have no trouble using a Leica M3 at all. I do not understand what difference that would make at all as far as being able to see frame lines or focusing. I am slightly nearsighted, and use a slight minus diopter screwed right into the eyepiece-I can still still the entire finder out to the edges this way. I do not use my glasses when using the Leica.

-- Andrew Schank (aschank@flash.net), September 30, 2001.

Besides, as it's been talked about here before, Sebastiao Salgado uses R cameras more than M's.

-- Josh Root (rootj@att.net), September 30, 2001.

I'm right handed but left eye dominant and I wear glasses. I use an M5 (0.72x finder). Seeing the 35 frame requires looking around a bit but I still really like it. If I had the money I would immediately purchase an M5TTL at 0.58X and have one of those fancy new 1.25x adapters ready just in case. However, like they said above, the Leica M's aren't for everyone. In fact, judging from what cameras I see at popular events (like the Albuquerque International Baloon Fiesta, the most photographed event in the world), I would say that the Leica M's aren't for most everyone. I'm glad they agree with me.

-- mark (mramra@qwest.net), September 30, 2001.

Other old advice: try a 1970s fixed focal length rangefinder- Canonet, Olympus, Konica, Yashica all made nice ones- which in the US can be found for $10-$50. In use, on manual mode, these are not terribly different from the M6. BTW, what you see in the viewfinder in the M is very different from the Contax G.

I am a glasses wearer sometimes, left eyed, and the .72 seems fine for 35mm. W/o glasses, it's definitely not a problem. I find the 28mm hard to use tho' but I haven't really used it.

I like having a 90mm, so I think I'm glad I have the .72 tho' the .58 is tempting since RF's supposedly excel at wide angles.

-- Tse-Sung (tsesung@yahoo.com), October 01, 2001.

I am also left eyed and very short sighted. I find I can'd always see the 35mm frames but in practice it seems to work out OK. If I were to buy an M6 body now, it would be a 0.58, though. I would say the 0.72 is very usable and the 0.58 is perfect for the 35 focal length (for me, anyway).

Personally I think you'll only know how much you like this camera (or any other) when you've shot about its own value of film with it. At that point you'll either find it totally natural or the niggles will have revealed themselves to be inherent problems.

I shoot weddings occasionally and those are fast and furious photo events. I'm not even aware of any of the little complaints I have about my cameras in such a situation, which presumably means that they work OK for me. I don't think you can really judge the suitability of a camera for you until you've used it intensively like that or over the long term.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), October 01, 2001.

Marco,

I too was a Nikon user, but switched to Leica not too long ago. Like you I wear glasses with a similar strength.

Here's my limited experiences w. a M3 0.9? magnification and a M4 0.72 mag.: To see the outer framelines on either body (M3:50mm M4:35mm)I have to rest my glasses on the ocular, other framelines gives no problems.

I would compare the experience with the one you get using a Nikon FM/FE series camera; You have to hold the glasses pretty close to the viewfinder to see the edges, but w. practice it is not a problem.

On a M6 body this should neither be a problem since the ocular also has a rubber covered edge (as far as I understand) and will protect you glasses.

I find focusing a Summicron 50/2 on a Leica much easier/faster and more precise than eg. a Nikkor 50/1.8 on a Nikon F90.

With 35mm as your favorite, it sound like the 0.58 would be the mag. to consider.

-- Niels H. S. Nielsen (nhsn@ruc.dk), October 01, 2001.

Very wise advices, thank you Rob for the wisest one! -- Your help is invaluable -- thanks Phil G.!! -- I'll definetly go to a camera shop and try out different magnification viewfinders/lenses combos. Thank you so much. Marco.

-- Marco Mria Colombo (mcolombo@iol.it), October 01, 2001.

Marco

One cannot compare the Leica and the Contax G2 really as one is autofocus and noisy compared to the Leica which is manual and very quiet. Equally there is no way that some frames on a fixed magnification viewfinder will not end up difficult to see. Leica afficionados learn to live with this and enjoy the way the camera works with the system that is almost 50 years old (young). For lenses in the 28-35-50 range the 0.58 works well, if you want 35-50-90 the 0.72 is probably the best, the 0.85 is best for 50-90-135. You learn to live with the limitations of the camera because you will be getting results that will continue to give you pleasure for years in the future. But, as others say, many people cannot get used to a rangefinder and return to using a reflex. The Contax is a kind of halfway house - you get the autofocus and fancy electronics of a reflex with a changing mag viewfinder, and you get the low vibration, but you don't get the precision of Leica manual focusing and the quiet operation. You might also want to look at the Konica Hexar which might interest you too.

As others have mentioned it doesn't really matter who your heroes are - you are not them, and you need a camera that works for you. Salgado primarily is a reflex man anyway and Cartier-Bresson is pretty well a one lens, 50mm, man. Whatever camera he uses he takes HCB-type shots!

-- Robin Smith (smith_robin@hotmail.com), October 01, 2001.

I went for a day out drinking coffee and taking some photos with a friend of mine who has a G2. I took the opportunity to look through the finder and get a feel for the camera. The clarity of the finder is much better in the Leica, but autofocus might be a useful luxury to have in some situations. The G2 did not seem that noisy to me, but this was in a busy cafe. I agree that the only way to decide is for you to get a chance to use/feel them. The more comfortable you are with your camera the less you will notice it, and the more you will see. I would happily lend you my M6 for a day or so if you would like to try it, where do you live?

-- Richard (richard@designblue.co.uk), October 01, 2001.

Marco,

As I long time Leica M user, I once went so far as buying a Contax G (first version), with the 35 mm f/2 lens. I was tempted by the automation and 1/4000 sec shutter speed. After playing around with it for several days, I decided to pack everything up and return it. The dealer generously took it back, since I was a long time customer.

There were several things: I didn't like the viewfinder, not as good as the Leica M and no framelines, i.e., you don't see anything outside the field of view of the lens. The shutter is relatively noisy, by Leica M standards. Although it doesn't have a mirror, all of the other automation makes it noisy, not like a rangefinder. IMO, they really should have made a quieter camera. There is no such thing as manual focussing on Contax G - the matching distances is not focussing.

There are no distance scales on the lenses: you can't conveniently do scale or hyperfocal focussing. There are excellent DOF scales on all Leica M lenses. The ability to quickly set the hyperfocal distance is among the most useful features of the Leica wide angle lenses. The Contax G is a nicely made camera, and I'm sure the lenses are good.

But it lacks the basic rangefinder amenities. To me it is just another automatic camera, like an SLR without as many features. In addition, I doubt the autofocus sytem on the Contax G or G2 is capable of critical accuracy: hence don't expect any faster lenses.

That's just my opinion. On the other hand, I'm sure there are many satisfied Contax G users.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), October 02, 2001.

Dear Richard, I'm from Milan, Italy, a bit far away from you, but, I would like to thank you for the "offer"... Dear Eliot, I think there some sort of misunderstanding going on here. I have no intention to buy any Contax G, the guy I quoted refers that he couldn't deal with the M6 viewfinder because of his eyesight and glasses. So, being myself in the same situation (but never tried any Leica M yet) I was afraid (and still I am) to spend a fortune and make the wrong decision! That's the real matter of the question. Thank you all, any other suggestion is well appreciated!!! -- Marco.

-- Marco Maria Colombo (mcolombo@iol.it), October 02, 2001.

Hi Marco!

I think I'm a little closer to Milan and I have to admit (sorry, but I don't care) that I have no Contax experience, but I do have M6 TTL 0.72 and 0.85 experience. I too am left-eyed and can't see much without glasses and both my eyes are a lot worse than your eyes. My favourite lens is also a 35mm, and after that come my 21mm and 50mm. I tried out the 0.72 and 0.85, and not being interested in 135mm, I opted for the 0.72 Just wanted to tell you all this stuff because actually the worst thing about my whole camera is my own eye, but I apparently never have any trouble focusing. At least not yet. I too spent a fortune here and that was the best decision I have ever made (at least re cameras).

-- Michael Kastner (kastner@zedat.fu-berlin.de), October 02, 2001.

P.S. Marco, sorry I forgot to add Richard's kind offer myself... if you ever happen to be in the vicinity here, then just drop by and you can try out everything I have from Leica. BTW, Italian food is my favourite...

-- Michael Kastner (kastner@zedat.fu-berlin.de), October 02, 2001.

Your all very kind! Thanks a lot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-- Marco Maria Colombo (mcolombo@iol.it), October 02, 2001.

Hi Marco, as you may remember I'm from Milan also. Trying a M with your hands is not difficult at all, believe me. Especially if you go to a dealer specialised in used gear.

Now, Matuella has two MP4-2 on the shelf plus some lenses (a 35 for sure), they'll be glad to let you try it (ask for Mr. Lino or Laura). Osservatorio (C.so di Porta Vittoria) has plenty of them, and the owner is usually very kind (go to the office on the 1st floor, leica expo is there). Then there is Old Camera in Via Rovello-Via Dante, I usually go there just to play with equipment, there is the Japanese guy, his name must by Ryuichi or something like that, who's always extremely pleased when someone asks to try out a leica (he's a fan of Voigtlander Vito anyway...). These are the ones I know better, and they've always been happy to help.

Enjoy!

-- Antonio Carrus (antoniocarrus@yahoo.it), October 02, 2001.

Thanks for the nice list of Leica dealers in Milano. Have you tried the people on Fatebenefratelli?

-- Jim Shields (jim.shields@tasis.ch), October 02, 2001.

Marco

Viewing and focussing are two different issues. The ability to focus properly depends simply on visual acuity, after correction by correction by eyeglasses (or diopter lenses). I have curvature of the cornea, which is not fully corrected with glasses, but can still focus Leica M, due to the positive nature of co-incident focussing using the edges of the rangefinder patch. This would be much more difficult with a manual focus SLR, which requires detection of continuous small gradations in sharpness. If your vision is really bad, the best camera would be an autofocus model.

The ability to view the whole scene through an M viewfinder is limited by your eyeglasses, due to proximity. It is made worse by having to use your left eye. The only thing you could do about that is to utilize a wider field viewfinder, like the M6 TTL 0.58. I personally prefer the 0.72, which can now be augmented for use with telephoto lenses by the 1.25X magifier. But I think that you just have to try out a demo at the camera store. If you are uncomfortable using your left eye to view through an M6 (or any other M camera), the Leica M system is not a good choice.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), October 02, 2001.

Jim,

yes I've been to Foto Ottica Cavour in via Fatebenefratelli. They supposedly are one of the biggest Leica dealer here. The owner is very well known in the leicaphiles world, but my attempt (just one) to go there and try something has been nearly useless. I guess he would have been much nicer if I came in with a nice M *already*. Anyway, they have an impressive quantity of Leica and Zeiss material (used and new).

I forgot to mention another one which is quite good: Giovenzana in largo Augusto. They are also extremely kind (ask in particular of Claudio, last time he unpacked a *new* in the box F100 just to try if a diopter I was looking for was suitable, many people would simply refuse opening the box!).

Best regards.

-- Antonio Carrus (antoniocarrus@yahoo.it), October 03, 2001.

"If you are uncomfortable using your left eye to view through an M6 (or any other M camera), the Leica M system is not a good choice."

Or you can put on the new M motor drive and stop worrying about hitting your right eye when winding the film. I know it's heresy to the purists, and adding the drive does add some weight and a little noise, but it does solve that problem. The combination is still lighter and smaller than most of the good SLRs.

-- Will Perlis (wperlis@hotmail.com), October 07, 2001.

"If you are uncomfortable using your left eye to view through an M6 (or any other M camera), the Leica M system is not a good choice."

More to the point: using an M with your left eye is no worse & no more difficult than using an SLR with EITHER eye: in each case, you simply smash your nose against the camera back. But if using an M, it is worth trying to become right-eyed, as it is then even easier to use.

-- Douglas Kinnear (douglas.kinnear@colostate.edu), October 07, 2001.