I read an interesting question on the net. Is racial profiling ok for airport security? It seems that Arab looking (men) are being focused on by airport security forces.

-- Del (dgrinolds@gvtel.com), September 29, 2001

Answers

If that is what it takes to protects us who cares! Would you get on a commercial jeJt with a perso who was an of Middle Eastern???Not Me!!!

-- Mark in N.C. Fla. (deadgoatman@webtv.net), September 29, 2001.

Would you park next to a man who looks like Tim McVeigh? Not me.

-- paul (primrose@centex.net), September 29, 2001.

big brother is going to take alot more civil rigvhts from us,,, in the name of security,, the sad part,, we are going to let them

-- stan (sopal@net-port.com), September 29, 2001.

My husband and I had a long discussion about this the other night. He is an attorney who has strong feelings about constitutional law,he said that if the only information that police have about a suspect is his phyical characteristics, it is not racial profiling to look for people who meet that discription.

If officers were looking for men who were blonde and blue eyed we would not call it profiling against Scandinavian men.

It is unfortunate that this whole incident seems to have been caused by a particular group of people who are from the Middle East. We must also remember that when the government put out a request for people who could speak Arabic for translation work, they were absolutely inundated with responses from Americans that had a Middle Eastern backround. Many of which also volunteered to go undercover to search out the terrorists.

-- Chris (CLMngs@aol.com), September 29, 2001.

You now can understand how police who in a given community find them selves jailing an overwhelming number of people of a certain race for drug trafficing or gang activity, end up profiling in an effort to head off crime. I do not condone such practices, but I do understand it. Perhaps rather than scolding the greater community for profiling each racial or ethnic community should look inward and help prevent the criminal activity that is associated with them.Reputations ar earned and redemption is too. Del

-- Del (dgrinolds@gvtel.com), September 29, 2001.

Racial profiling is doing something like stopping a nice car full of young blacks and searching them simply because they're a group of young blacks in a nice car and for no other reason. It is not stopping the same car if there's a report of a robbery by four young blacks driving a similar vehicle.

With that rather clear cut example in mind, how do you feel airport security focusing on Arab looking men? It makes for an interesting discussion, doesn't it?

-- Gary in Indiana (gk6854@aol.com), September 29, 2001.

Very thought provoking discussion. This discussion is pretty much along the lines of a thread I posted right after the attack to this forum about backlashes. And that was before the backlashes got crazy. I now have to ponder this. It seems out consitutional rights are coming under scrutiny by the goverment. it now seems that our country will be carefully observing their citizens as in many other foreign countires who meet certain profiles. We never did really fully appreciate our given freedoms from those who fought so hard to make them a reality for us. By that i mean we as a society became complacent and just took it for a given, and in some cases felt that we would never be attacked. Now we are under attack and our very core of personal freedoms are questioned because of security. This could be a big problem in the future if we are not careful.

As for the Middle Eastern, "Look" I also thought a lot about the Japanese court case after WWII about how our government placed thousands of Japanese citizens in this country in what they referred to a sconcentration camps in the case. the supreme court ruled that this was not a violation of their rights as the governemnt was doing at the time what was in the best interest of national security. should this be implemented now? Makes you think.

Here is the name of the case for those interested in researching: Koremastu v US The Emergency Detention Act of 1950. Then in 1971 the case wa repealed, the decision was, " "No citizen shall be imprisioned or otherwise detained by the US except pursuant to an Act of Congress"

In all of this racial profling is wrong, albeit for any reason, but we are in a different situation, that of war, so that provides our government with a need to do so. I think we as citizens need to be on top of this so our rights are not violated, as whatever happens will take precident and once precident is set it is almost like law.

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), September 29, 2001.

Hi Del,

If we are on higher alert to would be terrorists, and we know the likely candidates will be of Arab descent, why would we be looking for blond haired, blue eyed people? People in this country are of all nationalities and ethnic descents. However, a much much higher percentage of Arab people are going to have a certain look, with certain recognizable features. I don't think it is necessarily accurate to term it "Racial Profiling" or that the term needs be seen in a completely negative light. Would you rather we hide our heads in the sand and pretend that facts are not what they are? I have nothing persoanlly against any person of any ethnic origin or race or country, but neither do I see anything wrong with being cautious concerning people of Arab descent at this time. Too bad you can't tell what a person's intentions are, regardless of their race. But I don't know how to do that, do you?

-- Nancy in Maine (paintme61@yahoo.com), September 29, 2001.

Here is a interesting thought, learned this while taking advanced statistics in college. Not all men with blonde hair and blue eyes are of Scandanavian descent. The same as you can't say that all cows have 4 legs as an absolute. Plus, to demonstrate how crazy this is getting, I could say that being blonde haired, blue eyed and Swedish (mom was Polish) and the mother of a son and grandson who are, I am horribly offended by this insinuation. However, I also know it was meant as an example, but then again..........

See where I am going with this?

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), September 29, 2001.

There is a huge difference between beating/jailing someone because of their "profile" and asking them to cooperate at airport security. Those being profiled should be more than willing to cooperate in an effort to protect everyone. Fact is, the hijackers did share much in common, and ignoring these shared traits would be infinately stupid. Whatever you call it, seems like common sense.

-- Dawg (Dawg@not.com), September 29, 2001.

We'd be better off not. If we do the terrorists will simply use it to their advantage by using people with similar beliefs, but of either differing nationalities, or by send the persons in their groups most likely to "pass" for white, or other racial background. How many of you can tell a Peruvian from an Arab of Spanish Moor descent? If many Arabs started dressing, and talking Spanish or perming their hair and speaking with traditionally African American patois,I doubt that even trained security personnel would catch most of them.

Racial profiling also blinds us to the fact that crimes are often coordinated and funded at another level altogether. Many instances of racial profiling in the drug war have prevented the public from realizing the truth that almost half (if not more, it varies) of all drug convictions are to white, suburban youth from moderately affluent families, and almost all high level importing and distribution is handled by white-collar (and white skinned) "entrepreneurs" in an almost corporate setting. Young black men are simply convenient and plentiful as runners, dealers, and muscle. But, then again, so are disaffected white men. Having worked in the bar scene for many years, I would have to say that most of the drug dealers and users I knew were white, and many of them were people you would trust your life with if they appeared in a time of need. Yeah, the stereotypical black pimp/user was there, but only as an integrated part of the whole. Racial profiling means that the white guy with the suit (the buyer, user, distributer and importer) walks quietly out the door while the low-level black dealer gets hauled off in the paddywagon.

-- Soni (thomkilroy@hotmail.com), September 29, 2001.

hey Mark in NC Fla, I'd much rather fly with a person of arabian descent than an ignorant yahoo like you. You must live a sheltered life to make that kind of statement.

Among quite a few, I know a man originally from Saudi Arabia. He's been an American since 1965. He's a successful business owner, a value to America and our society. He's lived up to 'the American way' 100%. His children have had to miss some days of school because they were getting hassled by ignorant racist kids, probably raised by idiots like you. That really pisses me off. They're just as American as you or me. I'm guessing your skin is white and you somehow believe that makes you more of an American. Unless you're mexican or belong to a tribe, I highly doubt you can trace your linage back to native Americans. People like you go against the whole concept of what America is and give true Americans a bad name.

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), September 29, 2001.

I think it is quite interesting how some think that I was refering to a certain race in my second post, however if you read my post I have not singled out any race. However the race in mind in our community has not been mentioned, and will remain so. I too, worry about our civil rights and our freedoms. I feel that both are now under attack from the out side and now from within. How do we keep ourselves safe and yet not invite our government to monitor our phones,E-mails and movements? Perhaps we need to carry the burden of this "war" to its source rather than wait for it to come to us.

-- Del (dgrinolds@gvtel.com), September 29, 2001.

Del, I don't know as there's an answer to your question, or at least I don't know of one. Do you have any suggestions? It seems to me that the FBI, government, police, security, etc. have a daunting task in front of them right now. How do you protect the public from the unknown (as in where and of what sort will the next attack be) without being allowed some sort of freedom to do so? If their hands are tied by people screaming about the general public's freedoms being violated, then what other alternatives are there? I understand about our freedom being restricted and there's always the danger of that power being abused. From watching the news and seeing how many people have been taken into custody, it seems that the FBI has been watching these terrorist cells for some time now but have been unable to do much about them except try to stay one step ahead of them. I don't think that's an ideal situation. Neither do I want my freedom taken from me, but what else can we do? I'm all ears. Really.

-- Nancy in Maine (paintme61@yahoo.com), September 29, 2001.

Let's turn your question around. As an innocent victim of racial profiling, how would you feel about having your body internally invaded and searched.

-- ~Rogo (rogo2020@yahoo.com), September 29, 2001.

Some people assume there is no price to be paid for freedom. Freedom does have a price and always has. Those 6000 or so people which lost their lives are part of the price of freedom. If you feel that price is too high, then you must be prepared to pay other prices,,, prices such as the incovenience of increased security, or the government having increased access to information, etc. Some people appear to want it both ways, increased security and complete freedom. It don't work like that.

-- Dawg (Dawg@not.com), September 29, 2001.

Nancy, I don't know if I can come up with the definitive answer on my own we have our entire government working on it and can't seem to do it. However I think any violation of our constitutional rights should be temporary, a date should be set to revert to pre 9-11-2001 standards. I think the perminant changes should be in airport and infrastructure security ( water and power). And probably the most important immigration. We must raise the standard for enterance to our country and monitor visitors. The thought that millions of people who do not belong here legally are all around us is dangerous and foolish. Del

-- Del (dgrinolds@gvtel.com), September 30, 2001.

In the good old days when Hijackers were'nt alot more than violent hitchikers and kidnappers it would be more difficult to tell who's who by appearance alone but now, this set a whole new precedent---- suicide bombers---and that puts a whole new spin on the issue. It ain't likely bin Laden is gonna find a suicide bomber volunteer in the ranks of the Red Brigade, the IRA or other terrorist organizations. And that leads directly into the racial profiling aspect of the issue.

These are folks who are on a Holy mission, at least as they see it, and you're only gonna find them among the Arab descended muslims.

It sucks but for now it seems like its gotta be so to all the innocent Arab Americans and muslims, resign yourself to the idea that this stuffs gonna happen for a while and be patient and cooperative with the authorities. But also be VOCAL in your denouncing of the actions of a few who don't represent the whole of Islam.

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), September 30, 2001.

According to news reports, not all of those hijackers knew they were on a suicide mission - appearently it make recruitment easier.

-- Soni (thomkilroy@hotmail.com), October 01, 2001.

Racial profiling is never acceptable, it make you blind to the fact that there may be other's of another racial genepool that may be up to no good, you have to check everyone and assume that everyone is a risk to be checked out or you defeat your purpose.

If it is not acceptable to racial profile black people, then how can you justify doing it to those of Arab descent? Wrong is wrong, no matter for what reasoning!

-- Annie Miller in SE OH (annie@1st.net), October 01, 2001.

Dave , I think maybe you got a little to excited about Marks post .With this all so new in are minds I hate to admit I too would have a hard time on a plane with someone of middle eastern descent .I also feel uncomfortable around men who look like gang bangers or harley guys.No I am not stupid ,I know most of them are good people that would not hurt anyone .These days you just never no .Everyones emotions are still running very high and we all need time to settle down .

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), October 01, 2001.

I don't know Patty. Sure I can understand what you're saying, but... alot of 'gangbangers' are mexican or black so do you think those thoughts about those entire ethnicities? Most 'biker gang guys' are white, so do you fear all white people? Terrorists could look like anyone. Would you have been scared to sit next to Timothy McVeigh? Do you now avoid thin white guys with crew cuts? I doubt it. What I have a big problem with is people painting an entire race of people, all based on the way the look and dress. It's so easy to do that to people who don't look like you, especially when they are a minority. Just because .001% of Islamics are bad apples is no reason whatsoever to fear the rest. Most of these people you'd fear because of their looks are fellow Americans and damn good ones at that. You don't see too many middle eastern immigrants on welfare, panhandling, or committing crimes. Plenty of white people are though. Most middle eastern immigrants are hard working people living up to the American way. That's what bothers me the most. Who would you fear if it was white people who did that stuff in NYC? It just as easily could have been.

-- Dave (somewhere@somewhere.com), October 02, 2001.

Lots of good points Dave . If you grew up in an area where most crimes where committed by black , mexicans of whites that would be who you would be fearfull of .Growing up near a large city with gangs and hells angels you got used to who to be wary of .Unfortuantly a few bad ruin it for all.

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), October 02, 2001.

right. I do use concern at times, but never based on color, ethnic background or even sex(some teenage girls would slit your throat for your wallet). I lived around Philadelphia for 8 years, worked in the roughest part(north philly) for 3. I've lived right outside of Los Angeles now for 2 years. Being exposed to the city and its diversity actually helped me to realize even more to not buy into stereotypes but rather approach each judgement individually.

-- Dave (something@something.com), October 02, 2001.

here's a good example of this idiotic behavior, this guy wasn't even a muslim, his skin was just the right sterotypical shade I guess;

In Charleston, W.Va., Dr. Prathap Chandran, a native of India and a U.S. citizen, was detained by police on Sept. 12 after a Greyhound driver reported a suspicious passenger on his bus. Police Chief Jerry Riffe apologized after the incident. ``It is my skin color, I know,'' Chandran told The Charleston Daily Mail. ``If I did not have this skin color, I would not have been treated this way. Nothing would have happened.'' Charleston police officers placed Chandran on the ground and handcuffed his wrists behind his back, while other authorities pointed weapons and screamed instructions at him. ``I kept telling them they had the wrong guy,'' Chandran told the newspaper. ``I told them to please listen to me. ... I am not here to hurt anyone or anything. I am here to help.''

There's even been talk of interment camps, like the injustice done to japanese-americans during ww2. Those people lost everything they owned just because of the way they looked, and worst of all, they were Americans.

-- Dave (something@something.com), October 02, 2001.

"I fear the really smart kids" (Charlie Brown)

-- K & S (healthywizard@earthlink.net), October 03, 2001.