I've been reading this forum for about 6 months now, and posted a couple questions some time ago about the 0.58 vs 0.72 viewfinders. Your responses then were very helpful, and after borrowing a M6 Classic 0.72 for a weekend, I planned to go with the 0.72 M6 TTL and a 35 'cron. But then the worsening state of the economy caused me to hold off on all extravagant purchases.

So instead I've been casually browsing ebay and the classifieds for used M4-Ps and M6s. Today at lunch I went into a Denver area store and spied an M3 (SS) with a modified viewfinder, containing the 35mm frameline. The salesman told me the camera was recently CLA'd in St Louis, but it had been on the shelf for a while, so they were willing to reduce the asking price from $1100 to $800. It's by no means in mint condition, with a number of deep scratches on the top surface. However the rest of the body seemed in good shape, and when I checked its operation with the latest 35 'cron, it seemed to work fine.

I have 3 questions: (1) Does anyone have experience with this type of viewfinder modification? Are there any reliability problems I should be aware of? (OK so that was 2 questions in 1, sorry.)

(2) Does it seem like a reasonable price? I have seen allegedly E+ / E++ M3s advertised for anything from $900 - $1400, but without the VF modification. I'm really not interested in having to buy a 35mm with goggles.

(3) Would I be better served saving up for a more recent model? The M6 with meter sounds attractive, but the cheapest one I have seen was $500 higher than this M3. Given my budget (around $1500), I'd prefer to spend more on the lens. I have seen 35 'crons (type unknown) advertised for $400-$600, which would clearly put me over the top with an M6.

Thanks in advance for your advice... and your patience with yet another newbie.

Cheers, Stuart

-- Stuart Dorman (stuart.dorman@us.pwcglobal.com), September 19, 2001

Answers

Stuart

The obvious question that comes to mind is whether it actually has an M4 viewfinder in an M3 body. In other words the viewfinder mag is no longer the 0.9 or so that an M3 is and it is now the regular 0.72. The reason I say this is that I think a 35mm frame on a regular M3 would be a weird conversion as the 35 frame would "run off the edge" when you close focussed with a 35 lens. Therefore I suspect it is converted to an M4 viewfinder. I personally think that $800 is pretty good for an M3 w/ M4 viewfinder and in your shoes I would be sorely tempted. You will need to get a meter, of course which adds to the cost.

Many people might feel that it is still worth saving for the M6 with a meter, as an M3 without its "true" viewfinder is less useful than an M3 with its normal viewfinder, but I have to say I would be tempted. Certainly s/h M4s are more expensive as a rule as are true M3s. This is a hybrid so is less appealing to purists so I imagine might well command a lower price.

-- Robin Smith (smith_robin@hotmail.com), September 19, 2001.

I'd make sure that the seller is reliable and that you get some kind of guarantee. I don't like buying used but if I did I'd only buy from people with sterling reputations like Jim Kuehl, Don Chatterton,Tamarkin, etc.

I have serious doubts about buying anything that's been beat up. I've had Leica gear more than 40 years old that I used continuously and it never looked worn, much less abused.

-- Bud (budcook@attglobal.net), September 19, 2001.

If the finder is very clear,(should be if its basically new) the shutter curtains look good and the camera "feels like a Leica", it may be worth $800.00. I personally don't like to pay good money for cameras that look like they kissed the pavement or have spent time in a rock tumbler, but I can live with a few scratches here and there.

By the way, the lenses with goggles are a bit cumbersome, but you get used to them. People get a kick out of the old fashioned look, and the old Summicron and Summaron 2.8 are superb even by today's standards. I would miss the giant 50 and large 90 lines from the normal M3 finder.

-- Andrew Schank (aschank@flash.net), September 19, 2001.

I bought a used SL from a Leica dealer in Fort Lauderdale. The camera looked to be at least a 9 inside and out. It had just had what Rockleigh called their Signature Service. Despite it all, it's cost me $350 at DAG's rates to get it working correctly (prism, shutter brake, CLA).

I now have an SL that's going to outlast me, that looks great and which I can rely on. If the camera had been beat up to begin with I wouldn't have touched it. There's no way I could have justified putting $750 into a battered user.

-- Bud (budcook@attglobal.net), September 19, 2001.

Stuart:

I agree, it sounds to me like you have an M4 finder in an old body. Neat, I've never seen one. I've used an M3 with the 35 mm for 2 decades. The whole finder is a pretty good guide. Never saw a need for the eyes. The whole finder is as accurate as the finder lines; which are really just a suggestion. Never have adapted to the M6.

Art

-- Art (AKarr90975@aol.com), September 19, 2001.

It could also have the 0.85x finder which is what they are putting into M3 cameras that need replacements. Check it out carefully.

In that price range you could buy an M4-2 or M4-P. This would give you a camera with a hot shoe, crank rewind, rapid load and the possiblity of putting a Motor, Winder or Rapidwinder on in the future. The camera would also be decades newer.

My first camera was an M2 and, for sentimental reasons, I will not sell it. However, I would never buy anything other than M4-2 and up cameras as they are much more practical in everyday use. Collecting? That is a different story.

Cheers,

-- John Collier (jbcollier@powersurfr.com), September 19, 2001.

As far as I am aware, it is impossible to fit a frameline setup containing the 35mm frame into an M3 unless the entire rangefinder mechanism is swapped. Depending on who did it and when, it could be an M2, M4, M4-2, M4-P/M6, or M6 0.85 (M6J) type. If there is a 135mm frame but no 28mm or 75mm, it's probably an M4 or M4-2 rangefinder. If there are 28mm and 75mm frames, it's an M4-P or later. An M6J finder would have the 35mm frame at the very outside of the finder and no 75mm frame; an M6 0.85 would have a 75 frameline. As others have noted, a user-condition M4-2 or M4-P would likely sell for the same price, give or take $100, and is more user-friendly. Without the 0.91x finder, I personally can't see any advantage to an M3.

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), September 19, 2001.

Thank you all for your feedback and advice. From what I remember the viewfinder had either 3 or 4 framelines. There certainly wasn't a 28mm frame, but I'm not sure about the 75mm or 135mm frames. I assume the original was replaced with either the M2 or M4 viewfinder.

Having sat back, thought a while, and researched a little more I think I'm going to pass on the hybrid body. It's at Denver Pro Photo if anyone's interested. The leap to an M6 Classic isn't as great as I had thought, and I've been made aware of M2s, M3s and M4-Ps in much better condition for similar money as the hybrid M3.

I'll let you all know what I buy as and when I take the plunge...

Cheers, Stuart

-- Stuart Dorman (stuart.dorman@us.pwcglobal.com), September 20, 2001.

Oh, a Leica in Denver was CLA'd in St. Louis? that's funny, in St. Louis we send them to Colorado for CLA.

I don't know of anyone doing this in St. Louis, otherwise I don't see why our local dealers send them out of town. Could be, though.

-- Bob Fleischman (RFXMAIL@prodigy.net), September 21, 2001.

Just FYI: I live in Denver, so I stopped by today to see the freak 8^).

It is a very weird finder - no 28 or 75 lines - it has only the basic 4 M4 frames: 35/135,50,90. BUT - the 90 frame is NOT the M4/M4-2 design, with 8 'pieces' to the frame - it is the M4-P/M6/M6TTL 90 frame with 4 sides that stop well short of the corners.

And it is a .72 viewfinder, so it's not transplanted from an M6J.

Could Leica (or whoever installed it) have used an M6J mask in regular .72 optics?

Or did the very last M4-2s start to use the simpler 90 frame as the M4- P was being phased in?

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), September 22, 2001.

While browsing eBay this morning I happened to come across 'The Freak', as Andy referred to it. For those of you who are interested, it's located at --> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll? ViewItem&item=1292032255 (sorry, I haven't figured out how to insert a hyperlink).

And the mystery of the 'St. Louis' CLA has been resolved. I obviously need my ears syringed, as the auction states that it was performed at Focal Point, located just down the road from me in Louisville, CO.

As for my adventures in the world of the rangefinder, I have been testing an M4-2 with pre-ASPH 35 'cron for the last few weeks and I'm well and truly hooked.

-- Stuart Dorman (stuart.dorman@us.pwcglobal.com), November 01, 2001.