What is the consensus of what exactly John 3:3 means. Many believe that it goes hand-in-hand with Romans 10:9

-- James H. West (jw501@yahoo.com), September 19, 2001

Answers

{To facilitate discussion, here are the two passages, as found in the Revised Standard Version and the New American Bible.}

JOHN 3 [RSV]:
3: Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4: Nicode'mus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
5: Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

JOHN 3 [NAB]:
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above."
4 Nicodemus said to him, "How can a person once grown old be born again? Surely he cannot reenter his mother's womb and be born again, can he?"
5 Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit."
[NAB note on bolded words in verse 3: "(T)he Greek adverb 'anothen' means both 'from above' and 'again.' Jesus means 'from above' but Nicodemus misunderstands it as 'again.' This misunderstanding serves as a springboard for further instruction."]

ROMANS 10 [RSV]:
8: ... The word is near you, on your lips and in your heart (that is, the word of faith which we preach);
9: because, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10: For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved.

ROMANS 10 [NAB]:
8 ... "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we preach),
9 for, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved.

-- (_@_._), September 19, 2001.

Jmj

Hello, James.

You asked, "What is the consensus of what exactly John 3:3 means?"

This is a Catholic forum. I am a little puzzled as to your use of the word "consensus." In Catholicism, the meaning of key verses in the Bible is not arrived at by "consensus" (of scholars, theologians, ordinary laymen, etc.).

Jesus founded a teaching Church. That Church (the Catholic Church) has instructed Christians for 2,000 years that John 3:3-5 is a clear reference to the Sacrament of Baptism. Through Baptism, we are reborn -- born "from above," "by water and the Holy Spirit."

Baptism is the ordinary means by which God imparts salvation, forgiving all personal sins and restoring a person to the sanctifying grace that Adam and Eve lost. That is why we find these words in 1 Peter 3:21 --- "Baptism ... now saves you ..."

Here is an essay on baptismal regeneration, which discusses John 3:3, related Bible verses, and the fact that this has been Christian teaching throughout history.

St. Paul's statement in Romans 10:9 was not intended as some kind of alternative to Baptism. Rather, the experience of faith and the proclamation of the truth -- Paul's believing in the heart and confessing with the lips -- are actions that an adult convert, in order to be saved, will partake in before being baptized and will persevere in after being baptized.

St. James, pray for us.
God bless you.
John

-- (jgecik@amdg.ihs), September 19, 2001.

Good post, John--
I only speak for myself, but the Church backs me up: I was born again the day our parish priest poured water on my head and said, ''I baptise you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.'' Only later was it made clear to me. Yet my re-birth was on this day; and the grace of God followed me throughout my life. The rest of the Church's sacraments have fortified my spiritual life.

Why, then should I, or any Catholic, wish to be re-born yet a second time? All those ''non-Catholic Christians'' who received baptism once --and on a subsequent ocassion were ''born again''; they deceive themselves. God is not the author of deceptive ''plural re-births''. This belief trivializes the Word of God as the Apostles have interpreted it. The Apostles would not interpret Baptism as re-birth only to teach a sectarian form of re-birth later on; introduced by a dissident faith. Special cases for those who are never baptised by water may arise-- and the faith they have in being ''Born Again'', may move God to allow for them Baptism of Desire, as His Wisdom sees fit. But they would be irregular enough, IMHO.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), September 19, 2001.

--Furthermore,
We all have heard the Protestant objection that a confession of faith is required before the baptism would effect a re-birth in the believer. That might have been so if Our Lord had so prescribed. He didn't.

An infant at baptism is clearly a soul who is absolutely free of all except Original Sin. He has no other sin for Christ's Blood to have to atone for. --Nevertheless, it is sin; and barring an extraordinary act of God's mercy, would require the DEATH and RE-BIRTH in baptism any other soul requires. He or she is therein BORN AGAIN, according to Christ's word in the scriptures.

The Church then, has baptised infants from the beginning. This can be shown easily by early Church writings. A baby has his/her profession of faith expressed for him/her at the baptismal font by two Catholic sponsors, the godfather and godmother. God in the Holy Spirit is satisfied the child has professed faith in Jesus Christ through the action of his godparents. It was good enough for God in the days of Saints Peter and Paul. It's good enough for us today; and a real necessity for a soul's salvation. Even the tiny baby's. <<<

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), September 19, 2001.

So how would this circumstance be considered . . .

A baby is baptized in the Catholic Church by parents who through neglect or deliberate antagonism toward God or the Church, do not raise the child in the Church and never teach the child anything about God. The child grows into adulthood as a atheist or agnostic. That adult then hears the gospel of Jesus Christ for the first time and responds with the confession of faith. Should that person be baptized in water? Did that person just experience a rebirth into the kingdom of God? Or was that more of a prodigal son experience in which he/she returned to God?

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), September 20, 2001.

David B, The Catholic Baptism is like a stamp on a Soul, that can never be taken away. There is no need for two of them! I think if this person wanted to clear his soul, than The Sacrement of Reconciliation would help in this matter. God is Perfection, and to have two Baptisms, is saying the first one is in doubt! These are my thought on matter. David S

-- David S (asdzxc8176@aol.com), September 20, 2001.

OK, David Sullivan,
David B is asking the proper question, if we accepted the error of protestants, ie., a baby can't make a true confession of faith by himself. We don't have to.

Now, the godparents having stood witnesses for him/her-- the Holy Spirit is content this is now a true believer, for purposes of his salvation. All graces AND sanctifying GRACE --any adult is afforded --are also afforded the infant's soul.

It goes without saying Catholic teaching demands that godparents remain faithful in their prayers at the very LEAST, on the infant's behalf. In order that the full Christian potential of that child's FAITH be realized. But let's face it; the same condition is applicable to a baptised ADULT.

What if an adult is unfaithful, after baptism/re-birth? He is able to receive actual grace. His soul is within the kingdom of God, as a baptised Christian. The objection on account of the child's infant soul, then-- doesn't stand.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), September 20, 2001.

David:
You say supposing; ''A baby is baptized in the Catholic Church by parents who through neglect or deliberate antagonism toward God or the Church, do not raise the child in the Church and never teach the child anything about God.''

I happen to know of just such a baby-- NO, TWO!!! Twins; and both baptised although they are children of agnostic parents!

Here's a little side-bar: I feel almost as if I were their godfather; but not really. They have other godparents; Catholics both. I feel I was at least somewhat influential, because I prayed very, very fervently they would receive the sacrament, as infants. They eventually did, but for the wrong reasons. I'll get to that.

It was important to me, on account of even the remote possibility of a death, or their deaths, occurring before they had a chance to hear the Holy Gospel. Now, we all have a spiritual duty to pray; that these children, now 10 years of age, may by God's boundless mercy come to their Christian potential in the Church. THIS IS A TALL ORDER, David. What are the chances? It's my faith that tells me; their day will come. God has them in His divine care, I am certain. I pray for them all the time. There already has been one great grace in their lives, in that they were Born Again; and no matter their destiny, Our Saviour leads them where they must go. Faith is their gift from God, not from us. It is for God to nourish it now. With Him nothing is impossible!

I'm a good friend and worked as an assistant to their father. He is a fine person, but a free-thinker and agnostic. He and his wife are ''intellectuals'' who reject any notion of ''faith''. I tried to effect a change of heart in the man; and we sometimes entered into friendly debates.

He wouldn't have conceded to baptise the children, except for political reasons. Someone convinced him the children might have difficulty being accepted as marriageable (that's right!) when they reached an eligible age; into the upper-class families of his country. He is a resident alien in California from Mexico. Let me say this for my friend: He loves his kids with all his heart, and he's an upright, ethical person, despite the circumstances surrounding this baptism. He also is not the overbearing type who would become a destructive influence on the twins. I have high hopes one day HE will be converted. I'm praying!

Is there some question on your part, as to any validity, or influence baptism will have for these children as time goes by? What a novel, Hm? You may feel it's preposterous. Do you?

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), September 20, 2001.

It's quite an interesting and sad situation Eugene [with respect to children having to grow up in a home with parents who have totally rejected God].

I believe that the children's baptism, coupled with the faith of the godparents, ensures their salvation until at least they reach an age of accountability at which time they must make their own profession of faith (e.g. confirmation). Beyond that, if the children mature into adults and continue to reject the gospel until their death, I do not think the infant baptism does anything for them in terms of their eternal destination.

At least that's my opinion.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), September 20, 2001.

You are right up to a point, David. In the end, they are responsible for their salvation. Accountability is the same for us; you and me. I had some hot disputes with a protestant many years ago, who insisted on their doctrine of ''eternal security''. Claiming that by receiving Christ, and salvation once, the Christian wouldn't have to be judged on the last day. He was saved, once and for all! In these discussions it was impossible to convince this man that a man's sins subsequent to accepting Christ (in Baptism or otherwise) could cause him to be numbered among the damned, if he died unrepentant. We are all accountable, even though we're already in the kingdom of heaven by baptism. Recall, the parable of the ten virgins.

Five wise virgins conserved their oil (sanctifying grace of baptism) required of them for when the Bridegroom should arrive. But the other five, UNWISE virgins --didn't have that oil for their lamps. They were locked out, and the reason was they were caught in a sin (not in a state of grace) --or else they would have entered with Him. Isn't it logical they (all ten) were in the faith? But only five persevered.

Notice a strange detail about the parable, David: The unwise virgins went off to buy oil. They thought they had TIME enough to repent. But they were not ready when Our Lord came. The same can happen to you and to me. (No reflection on your virginity, Lol! you understand!)

My friend's twins are still small kids. With God's help their faith will have God's protection, and in their adult life they'll keep on the straight and narrow. I'm sure sooner or later their turn will come to know Christ. They are His property!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), September 20, 2001.

Indeed Eugene. I agree. I am not in the "once saved, always saved" camp.

Also, I forgot to mention that I also believe that the twins' baptism, the vows and prayers that were spoken during the baptism, and the faithful and fervent intercession of those such as yourself over the years on their behalf will draw extraordinary grace and opportunities from the Lord. In other words, Jesus will make sure that He reveals His love and grace to them on multiple occasions as the Spirit draws them to reconcile themselves to God. God can't make their decision for them (based on His self-imposed limits), but He can make sure they know who He is and where home is (with God).

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), September 20, 2001.

Thank you, David--

If there's more I could ask of one not in my communion of faith where it concerns infants so baptised, I can't imagine what.

But I'll only say in addition; Baptism is a sacrament of Jesus Christ's own design. Catholics didn't invent or imagine Baptism.

No human vow, prayer or intercession by itself is equal to the real and true action of the Holy Spirit in Baptism itself. It owes nothing to my own prayer or acceptance. God works through and with Baptism. When Our Lord ordered His Apostles to enter the world, spread His Gospel and baptise-- in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, --He didn't state any other condition for my salvation-- that anybody else should work or pray or do-- anything. The only thing godfathers and godmothers provide is a testimony of faith in Jesus and the Holy Gospel-- on behalf of the godchild. No grace or essential intercession is implored, or necessary. The baptised infant receives it all from God. I mean of course, his/her re-birth. This is being truly ''born again'' in our faith.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), September 21, 2001.

Eugene,

I actually do believe that baptism is a very real work of the Holy Spirit that is far more than just symbolic. The reason I placed such emphasis on the prayers and intercession on behalf of the twins was because at some point they will need to turn to God on their own accord and exercise their own faith in order to assure salvation and being brought up in a faithless home makes that all the more difficult for them. But in so much as the Holy Spirit marked or sealed them as infants, He indeed will pursue them throughout their lives apart from any supplemental intercessory prayers that are offered. It's just that a believer's intercession is powerful and effective and will provide all the more opportunities for the twins to turn to God as adults.

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), September 21, 2001.

Hey-- I couldn't agree with you more. These intercessors are to be the ''secondary'' causes, as Chris Butler so aptly named them-- of God's own providence. I would ask anyone who reads this to please pray for the children. Their home life might have some influence in the wrong direction. However, they might, or at least ONE of them might be a saving influence on the agnostic parents ! How do we measure God's benevolence? He's placing two innocent souls in close contact with them; and God works great miracles.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), September 21, 2001.

Consider them added to the prayer list Eugene. My pleasure.

As a follow-up question . . .

What I was initially angling for with my first post was, let's say that the twins do indeed surrender to God at some point in their life, perhaps as adults after having lived a life of sin previously and never having known Christ personally. To them, it will seem like a re-birth then and there. Their faith will come alive and they will leave their sinful lives behind and begin living for Christ.

I can see how being baptized in water again as an adult following their "conversion" or at least awakening, would seem fitting both as a cleansing from the sins of the past and as a dying to self and rising to new life. I'm not trying to advocate "re-baptism", just thinking that it would seem a good and perhaps right thing to do and curious as to your opinion of that and if that would be prohibited by the Catholic Church.

Thanks.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), September 21, 2001.

David,
Someone else might do better explaining in a theological form than I. I do believe no other baptism of water is called for; or even a ''conditional'' baptism. Theirs is actually on record in the Church. They do, in fact NOW qualify as born again through the effect of the sacrament. (You may question how, since the faith itself is only potential.) It seems to me, Christ's words ''enter the KINGDOM of heaven--'' has more than one meaning. One is entering the Church as a member of His Mystical Body. That's why the Apostle says we are ''baptised into Christ'', and that by baptism we die, and are raised up in ''newness of life'', in other words, born again. If a baby dies then; it has all the faith it will ever need, and proceeds immmediately into glory. He/she was born again completely, in baptism. His faith is all by way of God's providence, who gave him the godfather and godmother that expressed it for him while he was innocent.

Later in life, the faith instilled in him by God in the sacrament has to show forth completely, but he's not being ''born''; he is reaching the original potential he already possessed. I would venture a non-Catholic (with baptism behind him) has the same positive response by faith, during a ''born again'' experience.

Frankly, I wouldn't know how to explain the born again experience of someone not already baptised. He might feel a great conviction; and it could be this is a Baptism of Desire in God's eyes. That much might wash away all sin; I couldn't say. Let somebody else in the forum explain more exactly. Meantime, keep the faith!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), September 21, 2001.

Jmj

Everything that you stated in your last post, Eugene, agrees with what I have read on this subject. Baptism is a Sacrament that can be received only once, according to Catholic Church teaching.
If someone is converting to Catholicism and lacks sufficient evidence that he/she was validly baptized, a "conditional baptism" is performed: "Eugene, if you are not already baptized, I baptize you in the name of the Father ..."

If one of the baptized twins about whom you spoke were to go through a second "baptismal rite" (whether accidentally in a Catholic ceremony or intentionally in a different Christian ceremony), that would not provide "a cleansing from the sins of the past" [to use David B's words]. Such a cleansing from personal sins (in youth or adulthood) could come only through absolution in the Sacrament of Reconciliation (or Penance).

Gene, I will join you in your prayers for the spiritual wellbeing of the twins. They are surely in great need of God's help.
I don't mean to throw an unhappy note into your thoughts about that tough situation, but I wondered if you were aware of the fact that the Church's discipline prohibited the baptism of the twins -- i.e., that the priest violated Canon Law (I hope accidentally).

St. James, pray for us.
God bless you.
John

-- (jgecik@amdg.ihs), September 21, 2001.

John, I only heard of the event of the twins' baptism after the fact. It filled me with happiness, obviously. Maybe they received baptism together, and possibly not. They are both Catholics, however. The person who persuaded the couple to have them baptised despite their personal indifference is the one who told me. I wasn't there. It's an extraordinary case, to say the least.

Most agnostics do not pay much deference to the Church; but Mexico (the culture) in fact DOES. Once these children grew up, a stigma would in fact be seen, in their agnosticism; by a prospective set of in-laws. It seems very hypocritical, I realize; but I pray God will bring His Divine Will to bear. It wouldn't be the first time.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), September 22, 2001.

"The purpose of this forum is to provide Catholics with an opportunity for discussions that will contribute to the deepening of our knowledge and the strengthening our faith; and secondarily, to provide non-Catholics an opportunity to ask sincere questions about the beliefs and practices of Catholicism, in a courteous Christian atmosphere." - RULES OF THE FORUM. Sorry, the purpose of this forum is not to permit a platform for those who would promote another faith. For this reason, today's post from Manuel Y Tamao Jr. will be deleted as will this post in a day or two.

-- Ed (Catholic4444@yahoo.ca), February 08, 2004.

I have a question from a little bit of a different angle. What is a child is baptised in the Catholic Church, but as he grows, becomes an antheist, totally denying God's existence and dies claiming that God does not exist. Is this child still saved?

-- Bob J. (bobbyj19@yahoo.com), April 03, 2004.

the child would not be saved. To be saved one must:

1) be baptized 2) believe that the Lord is his savior (confess the lord) 3) take communion (optional depending on age/status in the church) 4) have faith 5) live the life according to that faith 6) endeavor to sin no more and to avoid the near occasion of sin 7) confess and make right when falling into the occasion of sin

such a person would fail to meet conditions 4, 5, 6, and 7, and possibly others too. not only that, by denying the existance of God, after having been exposed to divine truth, they would be committing blaspemy against the Holy Spirit (one of the most grave sins). I cant say the person wouldnt be saved, however. God is merciful and i hope his mercy extends even to that man.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), April 03, 2004.