As you may or may not know....Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson are getting blasted from all corners this morning. All the way from other religious leaders to Rush Limbaugh himself.

I want to go on record as saying....I fully agree with what Robertson and Falwell have said.

Did America really think God did not notice when we have aborted enough children to repopulate Canada?? Did we think that God forgot about Sodom and Gommorah and decided to let the USA live the same decadent lifestyle??

Are we so historically ignorant to forget that in the past God has used evil nations to punish His people?? Need I remind us of the Assyrians in 722 B.C., the Bablyonians in 538 B.C. and the Romans in 70 A.D.??

September 11 was not just a wake up call concerning the evil in the world.....it was also a wakeup call for the evil in America.

While I certainly disagree with Falwell and Robertson on a number of issues.....I can certainly agree with them on this one.

Oh....and one more thing....after 10 years of being a faithful listener......no more Rush Limbaugh for me. I have no use for a religious bigot.....which is exactly what he has turned out to be with his mocking of Falwell and Robertson today.

-- Anonymous, September 17, 2001

Answers

I think I heard Billy Graham say the very same thing, or similar ... I haven't heard anyone blasting him.

-- Anonymous, September 18, 2001

WHAT?!?! No more Rush?? :-)

-- Anonymous, September 18, 2001

Robin.....

I know....I'm shocked to see myself write it.

But he simply crossed the line yesterday into religious persecution.

He would have had a hey day with my sermon on Sunday....since I essentially said the same thing as those men.

Anyway.......on another subject....

Best wishes to you on the upcoming deer season!!!!

I've got a real nice one in my sights. Bow season starts October 1st.

Take care!

-- Anonymous, September 18, 2001

Brethren:

Let us think about the comments that are exemplified in the following quotation of Jerry Falwell and Robinson:

“Did America really think God did not notice when we have aborted enough children to repopulate Canada?? Did we think that God forgot about Sodom and Gommorah and decided to let the USA live the same decadent lifestyle??”

We know from the scriptures that God is not going to “forget about sin”, any sin, until it is repented of and forgiven! And we can all rest assured that God is not going to forget about the sins of those who kill innocent children in their mother’s womb. And God is just as ready to condemn homosexuality and the decadent lifestyles, which includes much heterosexual activity, as he was in the days of Sodom and Gommorah. Yet we must remember that God warned Sodom and Gommorah before destroying it and we would not even know that it was God who destroyed those two cities if God had not revealed that fact to us in His inspired word.

Then these two preachers said:

“Are we so historically ignorant to forget that in the past God has used evil nations to punish His people?? Need I remind us of the Assyrians in 722 B.C., the Bablyonians in 538 B.C. and the Romans in 70 A.D.??””

I would hope that we are not “historically ignorant” of God’s wrath brought upon these nations for their sins. But we must also recognize that we would be woefully ignorant of these historical events if God had not warned these nations through the prophets that he was going to bring this destruction upon Jerusalem, gave them time to repent. And when he destroyed them he also revealed through His inspired prophets and apostles the facts so that all could know that God had his hand in the action. By this means he provided clear and indisputable evidence for all to know that he did destroy Jerusalem at the hands of the Assyrians, Babalonians and the Romans in 722 B. C., 538 B. C., and 70 A. D. respectively according to his promise to do so. But there is no such evidence of God’s deliberate judgment and wrath in the case of these terrorist attacks in New York.

But let us ask ourselves whether we can prove that God did this to the people of New York because of the decadent and sinful life of many, but by no means most, Americans who support abortion, and are homosexuals, and are promiscuous or living a decadent lifestyle. Can any one show where in the scriptures that God specifically promised to destroy the Twin Towers in New York because of American decadence? When and where did God promise to destroy America for their unrighteous deeds and what evil Country did he promise to use in our punishment? And now that it has been done where is the evidence that indicates that God did this horrible thing to punish America?

I agree with the sentiment expressed that God’s wrath is against those who sin as did Sodom and Gommorah and that this would include America as much as any other country in the world. But there is not one shred of evidence in or out of the word of God that any one can use to prove that this act of evil was deliberately sent upon Americans by our God because of the awful sins which are committed by some in this country. Though these sins are committed and the sinners are supported and tolerated by most.

Now, there is a judgement day coming. For we are told by our God “it is appointed unto man once to die and after this cometh the judgement” (Heb. 9:27). And God has not promised, predicted, or by any other means made known to us that he intends to punish any individual nation in the future. But he has promised instead that he has reserved judgement for the entire world. Now that day is surely coming for he predicted it. And on that day we will not be judged as a nation but as individuals. “Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.” (Acts 17:30). And God is going to judge all evil and sinful men at the Coming of Christ. “I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;” (4:1). This is the Judgement that God has promised and that we must warn all men expect and prepare to meet. We cannot listen to these false teachers that try to make every catastrophe that occurs in the world to appear to be the “judgement of God” for some current evil for they have absolutely no evidence whatsoever that such is in fact the truth. And those who make these claims are also among the first ones to be upset when people ask the question every time some catastrophe occurs, “why did God allow this to happen”? And they fail ever to realize that their preaching such nonsense indicating that every catastrophe that happens is God’s judgement upon the nation is the reason why the people think, falsely, that God is deliberately bringing suffering upon us. And it is only natural that they should wonder why and we can see the reason that these preachers cannot give a good answer to that question. The primary reason is that they were wrong in the first place to imply that God brought these tragedies upon men. When in truth God has made us creatures of choice and therefore it is men who chose to commit evil acts that bring this suffering upon us. God will bring judgement upon the entire world one day and even then he will judge men as individuals and never as nations. We will not be held responsible for what homosexuals and abortionist do but we will be held responsible for what we did or did not do and what evils we individually committed and what we individually supported. But the idea of God punishing this nation by means of arranging for terrorist to commit this vile act is absurd, unscriptural, and a shame for anyone to teach. Such a notion makes God a terrorist and if we are to be at war with all those responsible for this act of terror, and God was responsible for it then we would find ourselves at war with God. And that is a war we cannot win and should not win. For if God was doing this then we should, if we serve God, support him in what he has done rather than fight against him. And if one follows the logic of this thinking then they would soon end up in the camp of the terrorist who did this thing and ultimately would become terrorist themselves. Our God did not cause this evil and any doctrine that makes Him in any way responsible for it is reprehensible his faithful servants.

There is a “great Judgement day coming. And all of us will be there saints and sinners alike. And false teachers like Robertson and Falwell will stand there as well and they will fare no better than the homosexuals, abortionist, and decadent people that they themselves condemn. For they are teaching men that they can be saved by “faith only” when the word of God teaches that salvation comes in obedience to the gospel of Christ (1 Cor. 1:18; Rom. 1:16; Romans 6:3- 6; 16-18; 2 Thess. 1:8,9). And God will bring vengeance in that day against all evil men and all that have not obeyed the gospel of God. (2 Thess. 1;8,9). And in that day even the “righteous will scarcely be saved” and we can justly ask with the apostle Peter where “shall the ungodly and the sinner appear”? What shall be the fate of them that obey not the gospel? (1 Peter 4:16-18). It will be the exact same fate as the homosexuals, abortionist and the decadent. They will all be “punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of God and the glory of his power”! (2 Thess. 1:8,9). So, yes, God is going to punish abortionist, Homosexuals, and the decadent but it will be at the Judgement day, it was not September the 11th 2001 at the World Trade Center in New York City and those who imply otherwise are just simply ignorant of the truth. We have no evidence whatsoever that God was responsible for the destruction and death that occurred at the world trade center as a judgement against America as a nation or even as a judgement against the individuals working in that building. For the evil men who are guilty of the evils that Robinson, Falwell and Billy Graham are justly and correctly against will fact the wrath of God on the “day of wrath” which he has appointed for the righteous judgment of God. “But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;” (Romans 2:5). For this reason we are strictly told to “judge NOTHING before the TIME”. “Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.” (1 Cor. 4:5). Now it stands to reason that if God has forbidden us to judge anything before the time that he has designated to bring the “hidden things of darkness to light” then he is not likely to administer judgment before the time which he has appointed for it. For in that day He will make manifest the “councils of the heart”. And these men, like Falwell, Robinson, and Graham who teach men a gospel other than the gospel of Christ are going to be anathema for having perverted the gospel of Christ for their own ends. And those who are faithful to the truth have no need to be aligned with those who teach contrary to the truth for any reason whatsoever. Especially in this absurd notion that is opposite of the truth. This pathetic and false idea that God has in some way, through this terrorist act in New York, brought judgement upon America before “the time” which He has appointed to judge all men because of the evils found in this society which both God and his faithful servants abhor! Yes indeed the abortionist, homosexuals, and decadent among us will face the righteous judgement of God! And this will occur on the very same day that false teachers like Falwell, Robinson, and Graham will face the righteous Judgement of God. The former for their decadence and the latter for perverting the precious Gospel of Christ into the false doctrine of salvation by faith only without any repentance of sin and obedience to the gospel of Christ whatsoever. And both of those parties will be anathema!

And let us not forget that we all will appear before the judgement seat of Christ and we will all individually give an account for the “deeds done in the body” whether they are good or bad. “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.”. (2 Cor. 5:10). And those false teachers among us who teach contrary to the doctrine of Christ while pretending to be His servants, those who have “crept in privily”, will face God. For His angels will come with Him on that day, “To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

Yes, my beloved brethren we will all see the judgement of God, one day but we did not see it the other day when these terrorist attacked New York and no one in or out of this forum can prove that we did! And we will see what the apostle John saw in his inspired vision, “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.” (Rev. 20:11). But you can rest assured that we did not see that on the 11th of September 2001 in New York City. The Judgment of God awaits us all. And that judgment makes the events in New York last week appear small and insignificant by comparison. The “wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God”, Brethren and we need so desperately to learn this truth! What we saw in New York was the very face of evil and the consequences of tolerating evil men. But we did not see the judgement of God upon this nation for any of our sins, which have been committed in America. That day is yet to come. And may we ALL turn from our sins including the Homosexuals, abortionist, and decadent, as well as, those men who would pervert the precious gospel of Christ. And may we be wise enough to know that those of us who consider ourselves to be far more righteous than the decadent understand that in truth we too have sins for which we must repent or perish! All men need the salvation that comes in obedience to the gospel of Christ. Let us commit ourselves more than ever to the preaching of that precious gospel!

Prepare for that day and as my wife often tells me “read yourself” by which she means judge yourself and correct your own behavior. Let us give ourselves to the preaching of the gospel of Christ, which offers hope to this suffering and dying world in which we live and let us not be diverted from this purpose by the evil deeds of any group of men. Let us remember, “Rejoice, O young man, in thy youth; and let thy heart cheer thee in the days of thy youth, and walk in the ways of thine heart, and in the sight of thine eyes: but know thou, that for all these [things] God will bring thee into judgment.” (Eccl. 11:9).

“For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil.” (Eccl. 12:14). And our God has appointed a day for this to happen and that day is coming let us warn men of it and save them from the wrath of God through the preaching of the gospel of Christ. None will escape. The homosexuals, the abortionist, the decadent and false teachers of every stripe and all sinners that have not obtain mercy in Jesus our Lord will stand helpless on THAT DAY.

The events in New York serve to remind us of the brevity of life. For James says, “what is your life? It is but a vapor that appeareth for a little while and then vanisheth away”. This even in New York shows us just how quickly we can be snatched from it. And they may serve to cause men for a time to listen to us about the gospel so that we can tell them of the hope that is found only in Christ. But they do not serve as evidence that God has judged anyone before the time that he has appointed.

So, when we think about it and compare what these men have said with the word of God Fawell and Robinson are woefully WRONG about this matter.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, September 18, 2001

Is it that God "caused" these things to happen, or did He "allow" them to happen, in order to chastise His children? Some may think they are one in the same, but that borders on a very calvinistic point of view.

Certainly God causes and/or allows things to happen all the time that are not specificially fortold in His Word. Now, is this one of those items ... who knows? But it certainly can and will be used by God and should be used by His children in order to bring a wake-up call to folks. I have seen that take place on the IUP campus already. Will that wake-up call result in changed and converted people? It will if we do what we are called to do, and share the Good News with folks. Our hope is built on nothing less than Jesus ... even in times such as these.

-- Anonymous, September 18, 2001

“Did America really think God did not notice when we have aborted enough children to repopulate Canada?? Did we think that God forgot about Sodom and Gommorah and decided to let the USA live the same decadent lifestyle??”

“Are we so historically ignorant to forget that in the past God has used evil nations to punish His people?? Need I remind us of the Assyrians in 722 B.C., the Bablyonians in 538 B.C. and the Romans in 70 A.D.??””

First of all Lee...."those two preachers" DID NOT say these things. I did.....and I stand by them.

Notice also the statements are in the form of questions....not declarations.

The killing of nearly 5000 people is certainly not a "judgment on a nation" as the Assyrian or Bablylonian invasion. But is it not conceivable.....that this is the warning of further judgment on the nation if the they do not heed the words of 2 Chron. 7:14???

Joel used the indicident of a locust plague to warn the northern tribes of Israel....that if they did not repent and turn from their wicked ways.....worse thing were coming. He then goes on to show the similarities of the locust plague and the invading Assyrian army.

Amos used the downfall of the nations around Israel as an example of what would happen to them if they did not repent.

Elijah used the occassion of a severe drought to discuss further calamity on Israel if they did not repent.

The question arises.....where are the prophets today who might suggest that this is but a small picture of what lies ahead if America does not repent??

In the same way...... Falwell and Robertson....simply asked the question and offered the possibility....MAYBE.

There is certainly much precedent in Scripture for the possibility.

Judgment on a nation does not preclude the final judgment. Many nations have fallen just since the time of Christ.

Falwell and Robertson are wrong about singling out abortionists, homosexuals, and the ACLU....(although they are all in the same boat).

All sin.....brings the judgment of God.

I make no pretense to know the mind of God and whether or not He had some part in what happened.

I simply state....if America does not repent....there is more on the way.

No one is more in need of repentance than the Church of Jesus Christ. Our apathy and indifference towards the lost and our mission for Christ.....could also be a part of the reason for God's judgment.

As John Wilson said...."This is not a game."

I know from the reactions I saw at church during the last week....many have come to realize this. I have seen a genuine repentance....and renewed enthusiasm for the things of the Lord.

I believe God will honor that. After all....did God not tell Abraham....for 10 righteous....He would spare Sodom and Gomorrah?

So no E. Lee...I don't have "one shread of evidence" to show that God had anything to do with what happend on September 11th.

But I'm certainly in good company with the prophets of old who warned....if repentance does not take place....worse is coming.

I also appreciate men like Falwell and Robertson who at least have the courage to go against the grain and suggest.....prayer without repentace....is useless....and in fact Proverbs says..."It is an abomination to the Lord."

-- Anonymous, September 18, 2001

Brother Danny:

You have said:

“So no E. Lee...I don't have "one shread of evidence" to show that God had anything to do with what happend on September 11th.”

I am glad that you realize this very important truth. And since this is true we cannot truthfully say that God brought this terror on the people of New York because of the ungodliness of the abortionist, homosexuals, and decadent people in our society. No one can make that claim and be speaking the truth. Therefore, Mr. Falwell was NOT RIGHT when he made that claim, now was he?

Then you say:

“But I'm certainly in good company with the prophets of old who warned....if repentance does not take place....worse is coming.”

Indeed you are in good company when you agree with the inspired men of both the Old and New Testament who warned of Judgement to come. But you are not in “good company” when you agree with a false teacher like Jerry Falwell who without any evidence whatsoever falsely claimed that God was punishing America through the use of these terrorists. The Old Testament Prophets warned of judgements upon individual nations and the inspired writers of the New Testament warned of the final judgement, not of individual nations, but rather of the whole world. And that day is indeed coming and that is the “appointed time” that God has warned that he will “judge the world in righteousness” (Acts 17:30). And just as was the case with the warnings of the Old Testament Prophets God appointed a time, day, and means whereby he would bring judgement upon the nation which the prophets forewarned he would punish. And he did not bring judgement upon them until the time, which he had promised. Even so God has selected a day when he will judge the world. We do not know and cannot know what day that will be. But he has not spoken in the word of God concerning a day that he will judge America, or any other nation for that matter, as a nation, for the sins of some of their people. He has instead set a day when he will judge the world and all individuals in it as individuals for their sins, which they have committed. And only those who have heard the gospel and obeyed it will be forgiven and the rest will be “punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of God and the glory of His power”. (1 Thess. 1:8,9). That is the only judgement that God has promised to bring upon mankind. And when we teach that every catastrophe that occurs is a judgement of God upon nations we speak that which is not taught in the word of God. And worse we teach people falsely that God is the “terrorist” when in truth he is our creator and His son is our savior.

Then you say:

“I also appreciate men like Falwell and Robertson”

Men like Jerry Falwell teach a perverted gospel when they teach men that they can be saved by “Faith only”. And I therefore do not appreciate them in the least. Instead I agree with the apostle Paul who said that such men who pervert the gospel of Christ are “anathema”. (Gal. 1:8,9). I do not care if it is an angel from heaven which perverts the gospel of Christ he is to be accursed or “anathema” (Gal. 1:8,9). Paul did not say that he appreciated those men in his day that perverted the gospel just because they may have shown some “courage” and we opposed to some things that he also opposed. He said that they were “anathema”.

But your reason for “appreciating these men” is:

“ who at least have the courage to go against the grain and suggest.....prayer without repentace....is useless....and in fact Proverbs says..."It is an abomination to the Lord."”

Now courage is a virtue in any man but it does not transform a false teacher into one that can be given “Godspeed” for men have been know throughout the ages to use courage to support evil as well as good. Those who killed millions of Jews, the Nazis, fought in world war two and many of them did so with courage. Would it make sense to “appreciate them” for their courage while fighting them? Certainly we can respect courage even in our enemies but we cannot appreciate them so long as their cause is evil. And those who pervert the gospel of Christ often do so while speaking on some things truthfully and with courage. A lie cannot exist without truth. Truth is pure and absolute and can stand on its own merit. But a lie is nothing more than perverted truth or error mingled with partial truth. So, it is not uncommon to hear liars speak enough truth to gain the respect, confidence and appreciation of those whom they will later lead into believing a lie. No, Brethren, I do not appreciate these men because they teach contrary to the doctrine of Christ and they “bait” their evil trap with a few morsels of truth spoken with courage and boldness so as to gain enough respect to lure us into error. I will have nothing to do with such men for they are deceivers who will destroy the souls of many. Beware of such men and do not underestimate them but do not “appreciate them so long as they are teaching doctrines that lead men away from our Lord Jesus Christ and the salvation that is in Him alone.

Just because these men speak some truth does not change the simple fact that they do not teach the truth of the gospel of Christ. In fact, they are leading men to hell with their perverted false doctrine of salvation by “faith only” just as surely as any Islamic cleric with their lies which is contrary to the truth taught in God’s word. It does no good for these deceivers to teach the truth about prayer while simultaneously keeping men out side of Christ with their false gospel. For when men are outside of Christ it is useless for them to pray for salvation unless they are determined to obey the gospel of Christ. And even repentance will do them no good if they do not obey the gospel of Christ (2Thess. 1:8,9). So, while these men speak of prayer, repentance and love of God etc they simultaneously lead men away from obedience to the gospel of Christ with their doctrines, which are contrary to the doctrine of Christ. And we cannot help or further the cause of Christ by “appreciating them”. And let us not forget that John commanded us, “If any man come unto you and bring not this doctrine receive him not into your house NEITHER BID HIM GODSPEED. For he that biddeth him Godspeed is a partaker of his evil deeds.” (2 John 9-11). No, Brother Danny, I do not “appreciate” these false teachers who are leading men away from Christ and the truth that is taught in him while pretending to be speaking for Christ. And I will not bid them Godspeed in anything!

But I hope that every one is now aware of the fact that even Jerry Falwell went on national television this very night and had the good sense to repudiate what he had said and admit that he was WRONG to say it. And our Brethren who thought he was RIGHT would be wise to admit that they too were woefully wrong in agreeing with him in his teachings, which are, contrary to the truth of God’s word.

So, the title of this thread is that Jerry Falwell was right. And Jerry Falwell himself now admits that he was in fact wrong about what he said which has been quoted at the beginning of this thread. And we were glad to see him admit that he was not right and that he was in fact WRONG to say such a thing. And he repented on public television for having said it and asked for God’s forgiveness and for our forgiveness. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if our brethren who agreed with him would do the same?

Now if we can only get him to realize that his false doctrine of “salvation by faith only” which he has been preaching for fifty years is wrong wouldn’t it be wonderful.

Brethren do not bid “Godspeed” to those who teach contrary to the doctrine of Christ. Instead resist them until they repent and obey the precious gospel of Christ. For this is the only means by which God determined to save the world. (1 Cor. 1:18; Rom. 1:16).

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, September 19, 2001

So.......

When Falwell, who is a false teacher and therefore always wrong, actually says he is wrong...........does that mean he was right?

Sorry Lee, couldn't pass up a shot at humor :~)

-- Anonymous, September 20, 2001

Actually....neither men said they were wrong.

Rather....they said, in essence....."it wasn't approriate at the time."

I'm disappointed they did that. I thought the timing was perfect.

You see E. Lee....this is where you, myself, and a number of others disagree. I can appreciate someone for a stand they make....without embracing their false beliefs.

For instance, I have an appreciation for the Catholic church's strong position against divorce and abortion. I wish the RM were as strong.

I appreciate the Anderson Indiana Church of God position on holiness. Lord knows we need a good shot of it in the RM.

Shoot Lee.....I even appreciate you even though you are wrong about your stand on instrumental music.

You see.....you can appreciate a position....with embracing what else is wrong with their theology.

-- Anonymous, September 20, 2001

Excellent point, Danny.

If ABSOLUTE truth is required for all, then every Bible Commentary & text book ever written needs to be trashed because they are the works of fallible men. Of course, this would instantly invalidate every Bible College Degree ever given. (But if anybody is now tempted to throw away their copies of the Pulpit Commentary - give me a call 1st )

Notice that Priscilla & Achilla didn't call Apollos aside and say. "Repent or Perish". Instead, they taught him more fully the proper doctrine. Apollos apparently was quite a dynamic preacher and his loss as a teacher would have been detrimental to the Faith.

Yes...........it is always proper & right to correct error where it exists; but it is also proper to give credit where credit is due as well.

I would never hold up Falwell, Robertson, or Graham as examples to be followed to those seeking salvation, because they have the Plan wrong and will probably pay in the end for teaching such error. But I can, in good conscious, point out wise words and moral lives in whomever I see them.

As an example:

In High School, I had a math teacher who was really quite sharp & a good teacher - but he had a tendency to get caught up in his explanation of problems and make stupid little math errors in his equations. Which should I have done: stand up & say, "you worthless idiot, don't you know what 4+4 equals"; or "Sir, I believe you need to correct your math on line 3.....4+4=8 not 9". I chose the later method (along with a little good-natured chiding), because it was the right thing to do.

I will say that their statements were presumptuous, as no one knows fully the workings of God's mind. But on the other hand, it is a logical explanation and definitely provides food for thought - and isn't that part of a preacher's work?

-- Anonymous, September 20, 2001

Brother Danny:

You have said:

“Actually....neither men said they were wrong.”

This is not the truth. Last night Jerry Falwell said unequivocally that he was wrong in what he said and that he spoke contrary to what he believed and that he had “misspoken” himself. He made it abundantly clear more than once that he was in fact WRONG. He even used the words “I was wrong” in his repudiation of what he had said. And he was in fact wrong. And your above assertion that “neither of these men said they were wrong is false. All you need do is get a transcript of the Revera Live show from last night and you can read Jerry Falwell’s exact words wherein he stated emphatically that he was wrong and categorically denied that his own words represented what he actually believed to be the truth.

I am at work right now and must get back to it. But I wanted to make this correction. If you did not hear Mr. Falwell’s repudiation of his earlier statements I can understand why you think that “neither of these men said they were wrong. But I saw it and head it with my own eyes and ears and you can verify it by writing to request a transcript from last night’s show and you can read for yourself what he said. And I have never seen nor heard anyone be more clear and emphatic in the repudiation of their own words then Mr. Falwell was last night. And in making his statement he said that “he was WRONG’ and further asked for God’s forgiveness and the forgiveness of the American people for making those statements.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, September 20, 2001

On GMA this AM Falwell backpeddled like a big dog! His first statement was that what he said was taken out of context ... and when he was asked how that was possible, he statede that he was wrong in what he said.

Agree with him or not ... he has felt the wrath of the American people due to what he said ... and he backed down.

-- Anonymous, September 20, 2001

E. Lee....

No I did not see the Rivera show last night (as it is usually not on my top list of shows to watch.)

As of last night about 7 PM Central time.....he had only said that he was sorry for the inappropriateness of the timing.

Put together your testimony along with Darrell's and my estimation of him now is.....HE'S A WUS!!!!!

Man....if the American people thought he was bad....they would have a hissy fit if they heard my sermon on Sunday!!!! (By the way....it's available in manuscript form if anyone is interested.)

Think about it......does this event not remind anyone of the account of what happend to the prophet Micah???

I cannot remember the two kings right now....but one I believe was Jehoshaphat from the Southern Kingdom and the other was the King of the Northern Tribes. They decided to join forces to battle against an enemy and they consulted all the prophets to see if they should go.

To the man....all of the prophets (I believe 400 of them)....said...."Oh yes...go up the Lord will bless!"

Jehoshaphat asked if there was a prophet of Judah to consult. The Northern King said "Yes....there is one....but he always says bad things."

Jeh. made them consult them anyway. Sure enough....Micah the prophet said..."Don't do it."

He made everybody mad. The other priests mocked him...threw him in prison....etc...etc.

Long story short??? Yep!! Israel was defeated in battle and I believe Jehoshaphat was killed in battle.

I am as patriotic as the next guy. I served my country in the Armed Forces.

But I am convinced....that if America "does not turn from its wicked ways" as 2 Chron. 7:14 says we must do.....it could very well be the end of America.

However, since Christians are the "salt of the earth"....and the "light of the world"....if enough of us repent....and fervently pray on behalf of our nation......I'm convinced God will hear our prayer.

Come on Jerry!! You disappoint me!!! Now your acting like a typical Baptist.....backpeddling!!!

Thanks gentlemen for keeping me abreast of the wishy washiness!!!

I'm busy getting ready to leave for Maine on Saturday for a 6 day bear hunt.

-- Anonymous, September 20, 2001

Actually...if he's back peddling....he sounds like a lot of Christian Church preachers I know!!! :) :)

-- Anonymous, September 20, 2001

Danny -- shoot me that manuscript when you get the chance.

-- Anonymous, September 21, 2001

Danny, I would also like a copy of that sermon manuscript. Thanks in advance.

-- Anonymous, September 21, 2001

Brother Mark:

You have said:

“So....... When Falwell, who is a false teacher and therefore always wrong, actually says he is wrong...........does that mean he was right?”

Sorry Lee, couldn't pass up a shot at humor :~)”

Your comments appear to be designed more for humor than truth. For they are indeed very humorous! But the facts are that I have not said that false teachers are “always wrong” in what they say. If you will read my post you will notice that I made it clear that lies are a perversion of the truth. And therefore the false teachers must use “truth” as “bait” for their trap which allows them to lure and deceive the unsuspecting. Here is what I said:

“But a lie is nothing more than perverted truth or error mingled with partial truth. So, it is not uncommon to hear liars speak enough truth to gain the respect, confidence and appreciation of those whom they will later lead into believing a lie. No, Brethren, I do not appreciate these men because they teach contrary to the doctrine of Christ and they “bait” their evil trap with a few morsels of truth spoken with courage and boldness so as to gain enough respect to lure us into error.”

So, while your comments were indeed humorous they would have been more so if they were “accurate”. Yes, Jerry Falwell is a false teacher and his doctrine of “salvation by faith only” is wrong. And so were his comments he made concerning God’s judgement upon America. And he was right to admit that he was wrong. And he would also be right to admit that he is wrong about his false doctrine of Salvation by faith only. But so long as he teaches false doctrine he will not get any support from me and should not get any from faithful Christians in any place. (2 John 9-11). For, because he has not obeyed the gospel of Christ he is not even a Christian. And since he is not a Christian he has no right to “speak for Christ”. And when he puts himself forward as a minister of Christ he is deceiving his hearers. And those who deal with him as if he is a minister of Christ when in truth he has never obeyed the gospel of Christ are aiding his lies and they are “partakers in his evil deeds”. For he does not bring the doctrine of Christ. (2 John 9-11).

It is enough that we speak the truth of God and we do not need the support of false teachers to accomplish God’s will and to contend for the faith once for all delivered to the saints. WE do not need to rally around false teachers when they occasionally speak something that is true. We need to speak the truth and if we are to support any one let us support those who are in fact Christians who are following the Lord Jesus Christ faithfully. For when we support false teachers just because they said something that we agree with then we are lending support to all that they teach. And it is quite disturbing that we have more people that are willing to find and support points of agreement with false teachers than those who are willing to resist and condemn them for their lies. WE need to ever keep a clear distinction between Christians and those who are not Christians in the area of teaching. And I know that Brother Danny and you do resist these men. But I see no good reason to “respect them” so long as they pervert the gospel of Christ and lead men away from submitting to it and becoming Christians. For that fact is not “humorous” at it. It is tragic!

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, September 21, 2001

Sorry Lee.....I didn't mean to be imprecise in my wording. The right/wrong equation was actually a "take off" of a Star Trek logic argument that hit me as humorous while reading the above posts.

One difference I would make known is that I didn't say, nor will I ever say, I respect Falwell & the rest of the bunch. I would never hold them up as good examples to those I consider Christians or to those wanting to become Christians, but I do believe that if they, or anyone else, say or do something that is honorable and/or Scriptural, it should be pointed out and expanded upon. I consider doing so a big part of my fulfilling Deut 6:6-9..............What better way to "talk of them (Scriptures) when you walk by the way" than to point out the right & wrong in what people say & do as it occurs ............Christian On-The-Job Training, so to speak!

-- Anonymous, September 21, 2001

A few thoughts on an important passage brethren:

“For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into [your] house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.” 2 John 9-11)

The term chairo {khah'-ee-ro} which is translated “God Speed” means “to be well, thrive” and therefore was often used as a salutation or a farewell among those who were friends, relatives or in some other ways connected so that they would wish one another well. And God in this place uses this word when telling us to not salute false teachers who teach contrary to the doctrine of Christ with a salutation that speaks well or wishes them well. And this is because of their false teaching. Let us heed this warning and this command about how we are to treat them.

Your brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, September 21, 2001

Taken in context, the above passage deals with a specific false teaching ... that which later came to be known as the gnostic problem, which John fought throughout his life as a man of God.

Does this mean the warning only applies to those who teach this one particular false teaching, or can it be applied more broadly? And if this can be applied more broadly, what about the various teachings that Falwell and Danny mentioned?

Just a thought.

-- Anonymous, September 21, 2001

Brethren:

Brother Combs has said:

“Taken in context, the above passage deals with a specific false teaching ... that which later came to be known as the Gnostic problem, which John fought throughout his life as a man of God.”

The Gnostic Problem was not by any means the only problem that Brother John fought against all of his life as a man of God”. And it is not the only doctrine that he refers to in his admonition that we not bid Godspeed to those who “abideth not in the doctrine of Christ”. For all who transgress the doctrine of Christ regardless of how they do so “hath not God”. For if these men who denied that Christ came in the flesh did not have God because they transgressed the doctrine of Christ then anyone who transgresses that doctrine by any means also does not have God and for the same reason that they transgressed the teaching of Christ. And by this means John spoke broadly when he admonished us to not receive false teachers who transgressed and did not “abide” in the doctrine or teaching of Christ and to not even bid them Godspeed or give them any greeeting.

This passage is indeed in the context of John’s condemnation of the specific false doctrine taught by those who falsely denied that Christ had actually come in the flesh. And this particular deception had many proponents who had entered into the world. But there is nothing in the context or in the meaning of John’s inspired words, in his response to this error, which would by any means limit his statement only to those who held to the Gnostic error. For his statement concerning bidding Godspeed is addressed to “WHOSOEVER TRANSGRESSETH and abideth not in the DOCTRINE OF CHRIST”. These words definitely do not apply only to those who held the false teaching that Christ did not come in the flesh. For the word “whosoever” means anyone and every one. And the word “transgresseth” means to go beyond or cross over. And the doctrine of Christ is the doctrine taught by Christ through the Holy Spirit in the apostles, which includes all that we are taught by them and not merely the egregious error of the Gnostics. These words make it clear that the problem with the Gnostic error was not only that it was a deception or lie but that it conflicted with the doctrine of Christ. And John makes it clear that anyone who transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ hath not God. The doctrine of Christ cannot be summed up solely in the doctrine that Christ came in the flesh. Instead it includes all that Christ taught us through the Holy Spirit in the Apostles. (John 16:13;John 14:26). This warning is similar to the words of Paul, who said, “Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them, which cause offenses contrary to the doctrine ye received and avoid them. (Romans 16:17). And when Paul talked of the Roman’s obedience to the gospel he spoke of “that form of doctrine” which they had “obeyed from the heart”. (Romans 6:16-18). This was the doctrine of Christ of which both John and Paul speak. So, this admonition to not bid Godspeed to those who “abideth not in the doctrine of Christ” does apply to the Gnostic error but is not limited by anything in the context solely to this false doctrine. For the admonition applies to whosoever does not abide in the doctrine of Christ. And because the doctrine of Christ is the standard of truth, anything that contradicts it is a false teaching and those who teach such are false teachers and we are not to bid any of them Godspeed. This is clearly John’s meaning in the context of his opposition to those who did not abide in the doctrine of Christ by their denial that Christ had come in the flesh. He condemned them and “whosoever” would, by transgressing in any way the doctrine of Christ, teach that which was false.

Now read the passage again and notice how the emphasis shifts from the specific false teaching that Christ had not come in the flesh to the general condemnation of “whosoever abideth not in the doctrine of Christ”. He does not say “whosoever does not believe Christ has come in the flesh”. Rather he says whosoever transgresseth and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ. Not merely by teaching a certain specific doctrine about Christ but rather by transgressing in any way any part of the body of teachings received from Christ through the apostles speaking by the Holy Spirit.

“For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into [your] house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.” 2 John 9-11).

Then Brother Combs asked:

“Does this mean the warning only applies to those who teach this one particular false teaching, or can it be applied more broadly?”

According to the inspired apostle John it applied to WHOSOEVER transgresseth and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ”. Now that is very broad. For the teachings of Christ involve much more that one specific doctrine concerning his coming in the flesh. And the word whosoever transgresseth of goes beyond the teaching of Christ. The doctrine of the Gnostics is not the only way in which one can go beyond the doctrine of Christ.

Then Brother Combs asked:

“ And if this can be applied more broadly, what about the various teachings that Falwell and Danny mentioned?”

There is no doubt whatsoever that this is applied by John far more broadly than one specific false doctrine. And it would apply to any doctrine that contradicts or goes beyond or transgresses the doctrine of Christ. Therefore the admonition of the apostle John would apply to any of the “various teachings” that Brother Danny or anyone else for that matter, could prove actually transgresses the doctrine of Christ.

Then he says:

“Just a thought.”

To which we say, amen! Let us all “keep thinking” and while thinking consider the doctrine of Christ and all the “various teachings” of our day that transgresses and is diametrically opposed to all that our Lord taught. Brethren, heed the apostle John’s faithful admonition, which he received from the Holy Spirit, and do not bid Godspeed to any of them. For if you do bid them Godspeed you will become a PARTAKER of their evil deeds. Which means you will share with them in their fate at the judgement.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, September 26, 2001