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September 14, 2001

FOREIGN AFFAIRS

By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

JERUSALEM -- If this attack on America by an extensive terrorist cell is the equivalent of World War III, it's not too early to begin thinking about what could be its long-term geopolitical consequences. Just as World Wars I and II produced new orders and divisions, so too might this war. What might it look like?

Israel's foreign minister, Shimon Peres, offers the following possibility: Several decades ago, he notes, they discovered that smoking causes cancer. Soon after that, people started to demand smoking and non-smoking sections. "Well, terrorism is the cancer of our age," says Mr. Peres. "For the past decade, a lot of countries wanted to deny that, or make excuses for why they could go on dealing with terrorists. But after what's happened in New York and Washington, now everyone knows. This is a cancer. It's a danger to us all. So every country must now decide whether it wants to be a smoking or non-smoking country, a country that supports terrorism or one that doesn't."

Mr. Peres is on to something — this sort of division is going to emerge — but we must be very, very careful about how it is done, and whom we, the U.S., assign to the smoking and non-smoking worlds.

As Mr. Peres himself notes, this is not a clash of civilizations — the Muslim world versus the Christian, Hindu, Buddhist and Jewish worlds. The real clash today is actually not between civilizations, but within them — between those Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists and Jews with a modern and progressive outlook and those with a medieval one. We make a great mistake if we simply write off the Muslim world and fail to understand how many Muslims feel themselves trapped in failing states and look to America as a model and inspiration.

"President Lincoln said of the South after the Civil War: 'Remember, they pray to the same God,'" remarked the Middle East analyst Stephen P. Cohen. "The same is true of many, many Muslims. We must fight those among them who pray only to the God of Hate, but we do not want to go to war with Islam, with all the millions of Muslims who pray to the same God we do."

The terrorists who hit the U.S. this week are people who pray to the God of Hate. Their terrorism is not aimed at reversing any specific U.S. policy. Indeed, they made no demands. Their terrorism is driven by pure hatred and nihilism, and its targets are the institutions that undergird America's way of life, from our markets to our military.

These terrorists must be rooted out and destroyed. But it must be done in a way that doesn't make us Osama bin Laden's chief recruiter. Because these Muslim terrorists did not just want to kill Americans. That is not the totality of their mission. These people think strategically. They also want to trigger the sort of massive U.S. retaliation that makes no distinction between them and other Muslims. That would be their ultimate victory — because they do see the world as a clash of civilizations, and they want every Muslim to see it that way as well and to join their jihad.

Americans were really only able to defeat Big Tobacco when whistleblowers within the tobacco industry went public and took on their own industry, and their own bosses, as peddlers of cancer. Similarly, the only chance to really defeat these nihilistic terrorists is not just by bombing them. That is necessary, but not sufficient, because another generation will sprout up behind them. Only their own religious communities and societies can really restrain and delegitimize them. And that will happen only when the Muslim majority recognizes that what the Osama bin Ladens are leading to is the destruction and denigration of their own religion and societies.

This civil war within Islam, between the modernists and the medievalists, has actually been going on for years — particularly in Egypt, Algeria, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Pakistan. We need to strengthen the good guys in this civil war. And that requires a social, political and economic strategy, as sophisticated, and generous, as our military one.

To not retaliate ferociously for this attack on our people is only to invite a worse attack tomorrow and an endless war with terrorists. But to retaliate in a way that doesn't distinguish between those who pray to a God of Hate and those who pray to the same God we do is to invite an endless war between civilizations — a war that will land us all in the smoking section.

-- Debra (Thisis@it.com), September 15, 2001

Answers

The ignorance of this piece is beyond words.....if this is what passes for intelligent debate then little wonder Americans find themselves in such a predicament....

-- Will (righthere@home.now), September 15, 2001.

To not retaliate ferociously for this attack on our people is only to invite a worse attack tomorrow and an endless war with terrorists. But to retaliate in a way that doesn't distinguish between those who pray to a God of Hate and those who pray to the same God we do is to invite an endless war between civilizations — a war that will land us all in the smoking section.

I agree with this. To blindly retaliate against all Afghanis etc would be very wrong. Problem is, this is war and not even "conventional" war. It will not always be possible to "distinguish those who pray to a God of Hate". In fact those very people deliberately hide among those who pray to a God of Love. They do that right here in America. One of the identified suicide pilots spent the last two years living in a suburban house in Florida with his family. He was considered to be a good neighbor. Then, abruptly, his family left for the Middle East and he left for Paradise via Boston and the WTC. How are we to fight evil people who hide among good people?

Corralary question: now that security is tight, racial profiling will be necessary. Middle Easterners boarding airplanes, Middle Easterners entering any crowded venue, will necessarily be scrutinized. Sad but true.

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), September 15, 2001.

Nuke those god damn bastard mother fucking rag heads. Fuck them. and thier kids and thier wives fuck the whole mother fucking country of afghansitan KILL THEM ALL MOTHER FUCKING BASTARDS WE ARE AT WAR

-- Screw that (screw@that.com), September 15, 2001.

America, at the behest of it's true rulers, spends the better part of the 20th century shitting all over the rest of the world and when it comes home to roost the navel gazing begins.

The ignorance is breath-taking, doesn't your constitution forbid foreign wars....hmmmm?

What goes around comes around.....

-- Will (righthere@home.now), September 15, 2001.

Will fuck off an die. Go the fuck back to your socialist communist country mother fucker. I HATE YOU AND ALL YOU STAND FOR.

-- Ya (yeah@whatever.com), September 15, 2001.

That's the exact attitude thaty got your countrymen killed, bring it on you brainless ameoba...

People have been doing business in Mesopotamia for millenia and you fat assed lazy ignorant slobs think you can go ever there and fix things real nice for yourselves..... BWAHAHAHA..... you need help!!!!

-- Will (righthere@home.now), September 15, 2001.

Will, go back to fixing hair. That's the only thing you're qualified for.

-- (An @merican.Patriot), September 15, 2001.

Will, may I ask you a question? Do you live in the United States? If so, I can we help you relocate to another region where you can rant on the U.S. from afar? I ask you this because you are certain to meet with some violent action should you speak in public as you have here. Yes, this is a country of free speech and shall always be. We are also a country of highly agitated patriots who would not give a moment’s thought to ripping your head off.

Are you the same trailer trash, haircutting ‘Will’ from days gone by? I would have thought that the pigs had eaten you by now. Just goes to show how picky a pig can be.

-- Your (Supreme@Commander.com), September 15, 2001.

No not the hair cutting *Will*, and no you cannot ask where I live, I will tell you that I am proud when American militia come around because they cannot stand what has happened to their constitution and Bill of rights...remember.. no foriegn wars? the founding fathers were right... they knew governments have a hard time minding their own business.

If you want to blindly follow the leadership you have then as you sow so shall you reap..

You can go back to carpet bombing the babies of the world now....

-- Will (righthere@home.now), September 15, 2001.

Dentist Will?

-- flora (***@__._), September 16, 2001.

No.. I think for a living, this has always been a problem for some and a source of light for others...

-- Will (righthere@home.now), September 16, 2001.

Will, the militias had better stick to guarding home right now.

-- helen (wondered@how.long.until), September 16, 2001.

Ignorance is bliss, until it bites you in the ass. Blind hatred of those who dare speak their mind, Sounds like something Osama bin Laden would do.....

-- Cherri (jessam6@home.com), September 16, 2001.

Good idea.

-- Will (righthere@home.now), September 16, 2001.

Cherri, as one so consumed by hatred, you have earned the right to speak on the subject. In our free society, speaking ones mind and hating that person for it are legal and socially acceptable. The same goes for ignorance, which you could be a poster child for. For someone that has not worked for years, not paid taxes, and generally slopped at the public welfare trough, you should avoid commenting on how our government allocates funds during these trying times. Don’t confuse your short stint in the military as a life long exemption from common sense and patriotism. Those rescue workers in NYC have done more for their country in 5 days then you could in 5 lifetimes.

-- Your (Supreme@Commander.com), September 16, 2001.

I know you think i,m a kook, but ''this is the beginning of the end'' I WILL NOT REVEAL THE SOURCE-BUT THE NUKES & POISON ,ARE ALREADY HERE!!

-- al-d. (dogs@zianet.com), September 16, 2001.

Good one, Debra. Thanks!

-- Concerned Citizen (lets@be.rational), September 16, 2001.

Debra, that's a very good piece, except that I'd want to leave the God issue (assuming for the momemt He exists) out of it entirely, because God's word (whatever that is) is always prone to misinterpretation -- or, potentially and ironically just as bad -- correct interpretation.

Will, what's wrong with a proper foreign war? I mean, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

-- Eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), September 16, 2001.

You can't be serious Eve. Leave the God issue out of it? If we do, then what are we looking at? Oil? Our OWN government? I can't believe that, I don't want to believe that. Before we can choose the right or smartest thing to do we need to understand who did this and why. And we need to understand who didn't do this and why.

BTW, what exactly is a 'proper foreign war'?

-- Debra (Thisis@it.com), September 16, 2001.

Eve, nothing per se, I think a war like WWII was OK, everything since has been unnecessary. Spraying Central America and Vietnam and then bombing Iraq incessantly along with interefering in the affairs of many other countries, police actions etc. I am surprised it took this long for America to get a taste of its own medicine, tragic yes, undeserved no.

-- Will (righthere@home.now), September 16, 2001.

Debra, when you bring in God -- well, you need to address the issue of "whose God" -- and which book -- and which passage.

The Salem witch trials, for example, were based on a real, very clear passage from, Exodus: "Thou shall not allow a witch to live" -- or something like that. Should we live -- and kill -- by that? And the Ten Commandments don't answer it, because in one book it's Thou shall not kill" in another it's "Thou shall not murder." And you still have to reconcile that with the Exodus passage. So the whole thing is just a ball of confusion, IMO.

To judge what is a proper war, we need to go by reason and logic, individual rights (life, liberty, property, pursuit of happiness) and freedom as principles for starters. If you believe in a just God, then we'd see those as gifts from Him, to use in our search for justice, peace and happiness on this earth.

Oil would be a proper war. Or the New York incident. In other words, when our interests are threatened. Don't forget -- without oil, most of us would end up dead before too long.

-- Eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), September 16, 2001.

Eve... so your GOD condones bombing children because your SUV needs gas?

-- Will (righthere@home.now), September 16, 2001.

Will,

My God would condone killing a terrorist who's taken over an oil facility where it could have an effect on when or whether our children will get food.

Or taking over a government that supports that kind of thing.

-- Eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), September 16, 2001.

Will,

Sorry -- to answer your question directly -- no; absolutely not. I would, though, support operations (in some circumstances) that would minimize the killing of innocents. And any that were killed would be the fault of the terrorist who chose to commit a crime and then ran to hide behind them.

Ask yourself this: Would you try your best shoot a terrorist who hid behind an innocent or decline and watch your own suffer or die?

-- Eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), September 16, 2001.

To clarify my previous post -- in ALL circumstances in which I would support armed conflict, I would absolutely want to minimize the killing of innocents in every way reasonably possible in accomplishing the objective.

-- Eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), September 16, 2001.

Eve, explore why this has happened, forget hypothetical wanderings. Why was America attacked? There is a reason and without change this will get alot uglier, it may get uglier anyway and to sit there and rationalize about how wrong the other guy is is a waste of time.

Talk about learning the hard way.....

-- Will (righthere@home.now), September 16, 2001.

Will,

I don't know why this has happened. Do you? As far as I know, no official exlanation has come out. Aren't you asking us to take more "hypothetical wanderings" here?

-- Eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), September 16, 2001.

Why was America attacked? There is a reason and without change this will get alot uglier, it may get uglier anyway and to sit there and rationalize about how wrong the other guy is is a waste of time. Talk about learning the hard way.....

-- Will (righthere@home.now), September 16, 2001.

As near as I can make out we are under attack for not supporting the Islamic policy of saving the Palestian and other "poor downtrodden" Islamic believers from the results of their own rabid ideas. By not taking their side in the Middle East we are wrong and deserved to be punished or better yet destroyed. That the root issue of the Palestinians (and most of of the Arab nations in the region) is the total annihlation of the state of Israel is meaningless to you. They have pursued this policy for several decades and they got their asses kicked. The Israelis have taken a damned dimmed view of being eliminated from their land and fought back. They have lived with the fact that the stated intent of the palestinians and their other Arab bretheren is their complete destruction and have survived. How cpmpletely rude of the Israelis to do that. How dare they not roll over and play dead (literally) because that is Allah's will. Are not the Jews (and Christians) People of the Book? I guess not.

Now you are saying that we should live with the fact that we are under attack and should learn and accept this. Just because we don't agree with these barbarians and whole heartedly support them in their fanatical goals we deserve what has happened. It is our fault that these sorry sons-of-bitches (the Palestinians) have got the shit knocked out of them. We have to pay because it is all our fault and we do not do what THEY think WE should do? Interesting concept Will but I don't think the united States has to learn that THEY are right and that WE have to do what THEY want us to.

I cannot say that I am amazed that there are people like you who think the way you do. You in your own way are just doing Allah's "Will". Why don't you just sign your posts with Allahu akhbar!

-- Jack Booted Thug (governmentconspiracy@NWO.com), September 16, 2001.

JBT & Eve, your countrymen were killed because your country is incessantly sticking its nose into other people's business on the other side of the planet, it's that simple.... get over it....you kick a hornet's nest and then are surprised when you get stung?

Israel and Palestine? who cares? ....stand back and let them have it out...

It seems to me that like a gossipy neighbour America has a hard time keeping out of other people's affairs...partly because it wants to gain and partly because it seem to think it has the right to impose on others...

Goood luck is all I can say...you will probably need it...

-- Will (righthere@home.now), September 16, 2001.

Canada? England? Australia? Which is it Will? Whatever, your countrymen would not be too happy to hear your crap at this time in history.

-- Your (Supreme@Commander.com), September 16, 2001.

None of your bloody business Mr. Commander, you make it sound like I am choosing sides..no way. Oh and BTW, I can think of two US ex-pats who left because of the very reason we are discussing here. Seems not all Americans have forgotten what the constitution says. If the Constitution was followed then things would not have followed this horrible path, I suspect you do not want to admit this, the truth hurts.

Islam? USA? again.. who wants to choose side between two brawling juveniles...

You risk nuclear war for ego,,, is that it?

-- Will (righthere@home.now), September 16, 2001.

As I thought -- no official reasons yet; at least none given here -- just speculation.

-- Eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), September 16, 2001.

You bombed others and you got bombed is that simple enough for you?

-- Will (righthere@home.now), September 16, 2001.

When Allah's in the equation as well -- no, it's not that simple.

-- Eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), September 16, 2001.

Also, lots of people hate the West -- of which America is the most prominent symbol -- just because they're better off.

-- Eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), September 16, 2001.

Will, you don't think it's that simple, do you?

-- Debra (Thisis@it.com), September 16, 2001.

I posted this elsewhere but think it deserves a place over here too...

Sociologically it's interesting to observe the shifting sentiments towards our government. A few weeks back they were considered shifty bastards trying to force us to join the New World Order, restrict our liberties, take away our guns and manipulate the economy, etc. "Don't trust the media!" was a common cry. But now the pendulum has swung to the opposite extreme.

I have a dear friend who once hailed from Yugoslavia (now Serbia) and now lives in the U.S. even though much of his family remains overseas. He has told me many stories of the way the U.S. bullied and bombed his country, intentionally turned neighbor against neighbor, and imposed blockades and restrictions that hurt no one but the Common Man - people just like us. We, of course, knew nothing about this because we were fed what the media was instructed to spoon out. Within this context I can understand why some foreigners hate the meddling U.S. to the point that many Americans travelling overseas feel compelled to claim they are from Canada to avoid American-bashing and subsequent bad treatment. I say this just to make you aware that others do not see us as we do.

I can understand and appreciate both sides of the debate. Terrorism MUST be stopped but at what price, what cost? Many people who are gung ho to "Nuke the bastards" are reacting from gut reaction and haven't stepped back to consider the Big Picture. Previously all of our wars were fought "over there" but now the bloodshed has been brought to our own soil and - from various intelligence reports being released - it will likely continue in various forms into the future.

Yes, we can annihilate Bin Laden but in the process we will motivate another 50,000 militant Muslims to take his place and perpetuate a legacy of violence and destruction in the process. A legacy that could very well find us inadvertently destroying that which we attempt to save, namely the U.S. of A!

The "Nuke the Bastards!" school of thought is a lose/lose proposition opening ourselves to cunning, devious, unconscionable retaliation. I am not prepared to watch my family die from anthrax or thermonuclear fallout...to watch the soil become unplantable and the water contaminated...to watch the starving masses die a slow and agonizing death. But what, then, is the answer? It seems to me that it's damned if you do, damned if you don't. I don't know where the middle ground lies - if it even exists in this situation!

I am afraid that we are in the midst of the Beginning of the End for which there are no easy answers or solutions. So rather than add to the existing animosity, please let's try and promote as much positive energy as possible to counteract the evil that has been unleashed in recent days. Do something productive and check the hatred at the door....after all, it's hatred that's led to our sorry state of affairs in the first place!

Be well, be safe. May you find peace in your hearts.

-- Girabaldi (Flying@Fish.com), September 16, 2001.

Girabaldi,

I appreciate your points.

But in carrying out our mission (changing their supporting governments as well as smoking out the individual terrorists and groups) we shouldn't be overly concerned over whether a potential or existing terrorist might get even more pissed off. That's because with fewer and fewer governments that will support them (due to the threat of us ending those governments and taking them over) they likely won't have the means to pull off acts like what we've just seen even if they wanted to.

And it's normal and natural to hate certain individuals, depending on what they've done. What's wrong with hating someone? For example, I hate Hitler -- always have and always will. I just don't let it consume me, but it exists. And I think it's fine that it exists. In fact I think it would be a shame if I let it turn to, say, indifference.

-- Eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), September 16, 2001.

In some important ways, this does seem like a religious war.

Yes, the US has foreign policies, not always represented accurately to the American public. But more than anything else, the US is a victim of its ubiquity, with a finger in every pie. This lets whoever so chooses take credit themselves for all we do they agree with, and lay blame for all they dislike whether or not America was involved -- even blaming the US for what the US has tried to *prevent*, if it suits their purposes to do so.

What the US really represents is a massive, global, highly successful secularism. We believe in asking questions (anathema to the religious) and finding new answers (also anathema). This heinous practice enables technology, which wreaks terrible changes (religious people HATE change). But technology is ITSELF an enabler -- it lets Muslim women see women elsewhere actually *holding opinions*, and being elected to political office, and running large corporations, and making their voices heard on the internet. Technology enables our domination of global practices such as news coverage, the internet, movies and books. We ARE the culturial milieu.

Our so-easily-exported lifestyle tells the citizens of the muslim repressive states that "Yes! You, too, can control your own life and resources, you can purchase what you want based on your own preferences, you can make independent decisions about your own life! Moreover, you can find satisfaction, contentment, enrichment in the process beyond what you've ever seen any god give anyone. The joys of a fulfilled life are available NOT from some silly god, but instead from those without one, BECAUSE they reject one in favor of their own efforts and accomplishments."

So we aren't really hated for any particular foreign policies. We're hated because of the threat represented by the overwhelming success of our economic system, along with the equality-for-all social system that our economic system entails and requires.

Nor are we about to concede this war by falling back into the worship of failure that religious dogmas imply and guarantee. The US *defines* sucess and failure in exactly the opposite way from the True Believers, and this won't change.

I strongly suspect that even theocrats are politicians, and see the world in terms of constituencies, sources of support and funding, and making deals. These politicians are not martyr material, so they will respect both nukes and assassinations. The US response to this latest terrorism will tell such politicians *exactly* what the penalty is for supporting terrorist groups. One way or another, the US has NO CHOICE but to set an example here. What lesson shall we teach?

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), September 16, 2001.

I DON,T THINK, evil gives a rats rump,what we feel or want.

-- al-d. (dogs@zianet.com), September 16, 2001.

Debra, yes I do think it is that simple when it is distilled down, violence begets violence and America is reaping its bitter crop..

This baloney about the rest of the world wanting to hurt the US because they are jealous is just plain myopia. While the politicians of the world give qualified support to the US for various political reasons, the general populations have less sympathy, and some do of course support the US and naturally this trumpeted all around because it sells very well.

I have traveled around the world and as an enlgish speaker I can tell you I have lost track of the number of times that I have had to assert that I am not American to avoid hostile reactions. And this is in countries that are considerably more *civilized* than America, I know that is hard to swallow for some of you. Yes, I have traveled extensively in the US as well and experienced the milk of human kindness and feared for my life too.

Nature (including societies) abhors an imbalance... and well... you can fill in the blanks...

-- Will (righthere@home.now), September 16, 2001.

Hmmmm...well, remember Hiroshima and Nagasaki? None of the terrorists since then who've committed acts against the U.S. (that I can ever recall) LOOKED Japanese. But maybe I missed somebody.

-- Eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), September 16, 2001.

Eve, do you no what a non-sequitor is? The Japanese nation has operated as a US quasi-protectorate since WWII.

Are you suggesting we use Japan as a guide to current problems? Your grasping at straws, why is that?

Maybe it is because you suspect that perhaps the US has been provacative and this hard for you to come to terms with.

Are you so utterly innocent?

-- Will (righthere@home.now), September 17, 2001.

Will,

"The Japanese nation has operated as a US quasi-protectorate since WWII."

So in the minds of the Japanese and their sympathizers that compensates for us atom-bombing untold millions of their innocents in WW II, to where there's no reason for any terrorism. I mean many might still be angry but not enough to fly a plane into a building. On the other hand, if Japan didn't have this status, they would have been just as big as the Middle-East in the terrorism business -- agreed?

So we "bought" them off? Is that what you're trying to say? So now the US can kill as many Afghan innocents as it deems necessary and have no concern about terrorist retaliation if it buys them off as well by turning the country into a "quasi-protectorate"?

"Are you so utterly innocent?"

Sure I'm guilty of some things. For example, once while preoccupied, I allowed my young son to play on a rock that was dangerously high. I still feel terrible whenever I think about that. And I have a list of other stuff too. But what does my personal life have to do with what we're talking about?

-- Eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), September 17, 2001.

Context, context, context, I am referring to your innocence of your OPINION as expressed here not your personal life, that is irrelevant.

At any rate you will have to proceed on your own, I have laid out my opinion. You seem to be intellectualizing rather than truthfully confronting WHY this has happened. I truly wish you luck.

-- Will (righthere@home.now), September 17, 2001.

I wish you luck as well, Will. I'm sorry we weren't able to connect.

-- Eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), September 17, 2001.

Top of the morning, Will. I want to clarify one simple point - are you saying the attacks on the WTC were justified?

-- Bemused (and_amazed@you.people), September 17, 2001.

No, not jusified, just not surprising that's all.

Violence against innocents is never justified, but it always seems to end very badly for everyone.

-- Will (righthere@home.now), September 17, 2001.